The market seem to have been flooded with the 991 RS

[RSVP911]

Robbo66 said:

RSVP911 said:

n4aat said:

Like all good Ponzi schemes it won't take much for it to collapse like a pack of cards. It's a market built on sentiment and no substance. Everyone who has stretched themselves to get one will be starting to get an itchy trigger finger. No one wants to be the one holding the bomb when it goes off.

Interest rates going up a quarter and the longer yield curve tending higher is not enough to make people sell for investment purposes, but it is enough to put doubts in speculators minds.

All IMHO.

I think a lot of people holding high end cars have bought them with cash and as such, they would only be tempted to sell if the cash would earn them a higher yield elsewhere - Interest rates are not going to do this is the foreseeable future and as such, I'm not sure I ageee with your view in this - sorry. Also a lot of these people will just sit on them as, in the case of aircoed - well they are simply not being made anymore, so this and time will help values over the long term. Granted this isn't the case for everyone, but a lot of the growth in values is being driven by people not knowing what else to do with cash as the stock market is frothy and iretest rates are low - if your point is purly about modern GT cars then please ignore this post

Edited by RSVP911 on Sunday 24th September 07:33

In a nutshell.

[hunter 66]

Yes the Sotherbys RM Ferrari auction was very strong ........ the rich are still rich ... no change .
But the RS has big wings and "boy racer " bits ......we like but not pretty .
Ferrari seems to be a lot stronger with the real money ..

Edited by hunter 66 on Sunday 24th September 09:04

[RSVP911]

hunter 66 said:

Yes the Sotherbys RM Ferrari auction was very strong ........ the rich are still rich ... no change .
But the RS has big wings and "boy racer " bits ......we like but not pretty .
Ferrari seems to be a lot stronger with the real money ..

Edited by hunter 66 on Sunday 24th September 09:04

Ah yes but ..... Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

[ChrisW.]

So GT4 will be the one to own

??

Very pretty ... almost Ferrari pretty ... and built to be the street kid ...

[P.Griffin]

Robbo66 said:

The cream has been bought in cash, not tick, so they will hang on as nothing out there competes with tax free gain

How about a tax free loss? It's all well and good holding an investment when it's value is rising, but unlike other investments, there is a substantial cost of ownership to a car. I wonder how many GT owners can stomach the costs of an asset whose value is now in retreat? I'm sure plenty can, but I'm certain there will be the odd distressed seller, and that's where the danger lies for this market. You won't hear about those low prints, car price deflation is no good for the dealers, but they will happen. No asset in history has continued to increase indefinitely, and definitely not one whose credentials are as poor as the humble motor car (massive cost of carry, zero yield). So sad these wonderful machines have been reduced to nothing more than an asset class, rather than enjoying their spiritual home on a track.

Edited by P.Griffin on Thursday 28th September 16:36

Edited by P.Griffin on Thursday 28th September 16:38

[av185]

P.Griffin said:

How about a tax free loss? It's all well and good holding an investment when it's value is rising, but unlike other investments, there is a substantial cost of ownership to a car. I wonder how many GT owners can stomach the costs of an asset whose value is now in retreat? I'm sure plenty can, but I'm certain there will be the odd distressed seller, and that's where the danger lies for this market. You won't hear about those low prints, car price deflation is no good for the dealers, but they will happen. No asset in history has continued to increase indefinitely, and definitely not one whose credentials are as poor as the humble motor car (massive cost of carry, zero yield). So sad these wonderful machines have been reduced to nothing more than an asset class, rather than enjoying their spiritual home on a track.

Edited by P.Griffin on Thursday 28th September 16:36

Edited by P.Griffin on Thursday 28th September 16:38

Not really.

The majority buy these cars because basically nothing else compares.

As with all interesting and relatively expensive cars, for many it is increasingly irrelevant how much one makes as premium profit, but rather how much one DOESN'T LOSE compared to similarly priced cars in this category.

Many would also agree and say there are not many comparables, although obviously Mclaren and Mercedes now provide similar offerings but, unlike Porsche GT cars, with the obvious massive hit by way of depreciation. So to buy cars like these you have to love these alternatives, or either have to be very rich, or very stupid, or a combination of both.

[RSVP911]

av185 said:

Many would also agree and say there are not many comparables, although obviously Mclaren and Mercedes now provide similar offerings but, unlike Porsche GT cars, with the obvious massive hit by way of depreciation. So to buy cars like these you have to love these alternatives, or either have to be very rich, or very stupid, or a combination of both.

Lucky I'm just very stupid

[av185]

RSVP911 said:

Lucky I'm just very stupid

Ha.....can't believe that Rich......thought you were a dedicated Porsche man through and through.....?

[Fokker]

RSVP911 said:

I think a lot of people holding high end cars have bought them with cash and as such, they would only be tempted to sell if the cash would earn them a higher yield elsewhere - Interest rates are not going to do this is the foreseeable future and as such, I'm not sure I ageee with your view in this - sorry. Also a lot of these people will just sit on them as, in the case of aircoed - well they are simply not being made anymore, so this and time will help values over the long term. Granted this isn't the case for everyone, but a lot of the growth in values is being driven by people not knowing what else to do with cash as the stock market is frothy and iretest rates are low - if your point is purly about modern GT cars then please ignore this post

Edited by RSVP911 on Sunday 24th September 07:33

<<< This... The market is absolutely not built on sentiment and no substance this time around. Its build on fairly good foundations hence I don't think we're in for a complete fall from grace. As has previously been said, if anything, it'll soften a bit as its doing, gradually, allowing people to make measured decisions and not throw in the towel over a BBC news headline.

Also as we're talking values here, 195K for a 991 RS is hardly seeing the bottom fall out. The new price was, you'll be surprised here...... £131,296 so with a bit of spec, say 15k you had an excellent car at under 150k on your drive. £200k still represents a £50,000 profit and that's about the cheapest one on the market. Cardiff have just sold the black one they had which was the most expensive one on the market at £229,000. This thread is a bit of a nonsense in my book...

[Porsche911R]

Fokker said:

<<< This... The market is absolutely not built on sentiment and no substance this time around. Its build on fairly good foundations hence I don't think we're in for a complete fall from grace. As has previously been said, if anything, it'll soften a bit as its doing, gradually, allowing people to make measured decisions and not throw in the towel over a BBC news headline.

Also as we're talking values here, 195K for a 991 RS is hardly seeing the bottom fall out. The new price was, you'll be surprised here...... £131,296 so with a bit of spec, say 15k you had an excellent car at under 150k on your drive. £200k still represents a £50,000 profit and that's about the cheapest one on the market. Cardiff have just sold the black one they had which was the most expensive one on the market at £229,000. This thread is a bit of a nonsense in my book...

my thread was about the amount of RS on the market all of a sudden. Time for the people to cash in before they drop.

none of these cars seem to be going to the right people. ie people who use them, it's all for money which is a shame.

Not blaming anyone as if I got every model and made £50k on every one it's beats working for a living. But all I see on here is the same people getting every rare car time and time again. it's like a big boys club with a lot of TAX free money changing hands.

[MDL111]

Porsche911R said:

Fokker said:

<<< This... The market is absolutely not built on sentiment and no substance this time around. Its build on fairly good foundations hence I don't think we're in for a complete fall from grace. As has previously been said, if anything, it'll soften a bit as its doing, gradually, allowing people to make measured decisions and not throw in the towel over a BBC news headline.

Also as we're talking values here, 195K for a 991 RS is hardly seeing the bottom fall out. The new price was, you'll be surprised here...... £131,296 so with a bit of spec, say 15k you had an excellent car at under 150k on your drive. £200k still represents a £50,000 profit and that's about the cheapest one on the market. Cardiff have just sold the black one they had which was the most expensive one on the market at £229,000. This thread is a bit of a nonsense in my book...

my thread was about the amount of RS on the market all of a sudden. Time for the people to cash in before they drop.

none of these cars seem to be going to the right people. ie people who use them, it's all for money which is a shame.

Not blaming anyone as if I got every model and made £50k on every one it's beats working for a living. But all I see on here is the same people getting every rare car time and time again. it's like a big boys club with a lot of TAX free money changing hands.

For now .... at some point they will depreciate again and suddenly some (I want to stress "not all") of these car enthusiasts will no longer buy one as losing money close to like on a normal car is not worth it to them. Which imo is a given as Porsche seems to crank out more and more cars while they can and the market will eventually turn again. At which point your OPC will be happy to sell you one again without jumping through a million hoops first. Well, in euro land anyway, in the U.K. They might just limited supply further if sterling does not recover / increase prices accordingly - both might have the same effect on how these cars perform second hand.

[RSVP911]

av185 said:

RSVP911 said:

Lucky I'm just very stupid

Ha.....can't believe that Rich......thought you were a dedicated Porsche man through and through.....?

Yep - only Porsche for me - once I drove a GT Porsche - that was it - job done

Agree the depreciation thing is for mugs or the very wealthy - I really like the look of the Merc GT - but my brain wouldn't let me do it - Mcl don't do it for me - look overdesigned to me - and that comes from someone who thinks a decalled RS is understated

Edited by RSVP911 on Thursday 28th September 20:07

[isaldiri]

RSVP911 said:

Agree the depreciation thing is for mugs or the very wealthy

Oddly enough, pre 2014 a lot of mugs were happy to buy the GT cars to drive despite the depreciation. Or perhaps everyone doing that was just all really rich......

[RSVP911]

isaldiri said:

RSVP911 said:

Agree the depreciation thing is for mugs or the very wealthy

Oddly enough, pre 2014 a lot of mugs were happy to buy the GT cars to drive despite the depreciation. Or perhaps everyone doing that was just all really rich......

Yep fair point - you're right to call me on it - let me expand on what I mean.

The Porsche GT overs / Aircoed market is a strange thing - it allows you to own amazing cars for very little - sometimes you get the opposite of depreciation - other times the depreciation rate is good relative to their peer group - this dynamic has allowed me to enjoy some great cars without the guilt that I'm wasting money on things I absolutely don't need - but I do love. It's brilliant.

I drive all my cars on road and occasionally on track (this is probably a good thing) My weekend is dominated by them to the point I am generally in trouble with my family for constantly "disappearing" . My DD is either a 981 Spyder or a GT4 .

I guess all I was saying is here is no way I'd own a lot of depreciating assets and if I bought other exotics that depreciate like stink then in my mind this would be an obscene waste of money - regardless if I could afford it or not - it would just feel wrong to me and as such, the Porsche thing really works for me.

Lastly, I bought my 991.1 GT3 before his "thing" started - put in LOI about 2 years before getting it.

Keep well

[FocusRS3]

RSVP911 said:

Yep fair point - you're right to call me on it - let me expand on what I mean.

The Porsche GT overs / Aircoed market is a strange thing - it allows you to own amazing cars for very little - sometimes you get the opposite of depreciation - other times the depreciation rate is good relative to their peer group - this dynamic has allowed me to enjoy some great cars without the guilt that I'm wasting money on things I absolutely don't need - but I do love. It's brilliant.

I drive all my cars on road and occasionally on track (this is probably a good thing) My weekend is dominated by them to the point I am generally in trouble with my family for constantly "disappearing" . My DD is either a 981 Spyder or a GT4 .

I guess all I was saying is here is no way I'd own a lot of depreciating assets and if I bought other exotics that depreciate like stink then in my mind this would be an obscene waste of money - regardless if I could afford it or not - it would just feel wrong to me and as such, the Porsche thing really works for me.

Lastly, I bought my 991.1 GT3 before his "thing" started - put in LOI about 2 years before getting it.

Keep well

991 GT3 has to be one of my favourite P cars. I can fully understand how JZM still sell them above list

[isaldiri]

RSVP911 said:

The Porsche GT overs / Aircoed market is a strange thing - it allows you to own amazing cars for very little

I guess all I was saying is here is no way I'd own a lot of depreciating assets

Curious, if the market returned to the pre 2014 state would you still be looking to buy any of the various GT cars new or otherwise?

[MDL111]

RSVP911 said:

isaldiri said:

RSVP911 said:

Agree the depreciation thing is for mugs or the very wealthy

Oddly enough, pre 2014 a lot of mugs were happy to buy the GT cars to drive despite the depreciation. Or perhaps everyone doing that was just all really rich......

Yep fair point - you're right to call me on it - let me expand on what I mean.

The Porsche GT overs / Aircoed market is a strange thing - it allows you to own amazing cars for very little - sometimes you get the opposite of depreciation - other times the depreciation rate is good relative to their peer group - this dynamic has allowed me to enjoy some great cars without the guilt that I'm wasting money on things I absolutely don't need - but I do love. It's brilliant.

I drive all my cars on road and occasionally on track (this is probably a good thing) My weekend is dominated by them to the point I am generally in trouble with my family for constantly "disappearing" . My DD is either a 981 Spyder or a GT4 .

I guess all I was saying is here is no way I'd own a lot of depreciating assets and if I bought other exotics that depreciate like stink then in my mind this would be an obscene waste of money - regardless if I could afford it or not - it would just feel wrong to me and as such, the Porsche thing really works for me.

Lastly, I bought my 991.1 GT3 before his "thing" started - put in LOI about 2 years before getting it.

Keep well

And this is why I think the market will revert to normal eventually, with possibly quite a big drop at some point - as you understandably say, you do not want to own a lot of depreciating assets and I suspect there are quite a few more people of the same opinion - There might come a time when quite a few will throw their cars on the market (esp the ones on finance) as the market will look like it is turning - sentiment shift and all that

[RSVP911]

isaldiri said:

RSVP911 said:

The Porsche GT overs / Aircoed market is a strange thing - it allows you to own amazing cars for very little

I guess all I was saying is here is no way I'd own a lot of depreciating assets

Curious, if the market returned to the pre 2014 state would you still be looking to buy any of the various GT cars new or otherwise?

Absolutely I'd buy loads including 993RS/GT2 and make a fortune by selling in 2016 - ah, I don't think this is what you mean

Joking apart - absolutly, but I'd only own one at time as I'd want to manage / control the loss. I could see myself doing lots of chopping and changing so I could try all sorts of variants.

In fact thinking about it, the obsession started way before 2014 - It was at a time that you could buy aircoed and speculate that the loss would be controlled to a level that was acceptable for a "toy" .

When I first drove a modern Porsche 911 I realised I'd never want to drive anything else again (the aircolled followed the modern ones - which started with a 997.2 GTS) Then I drove a GT3 and it really confused me - I just couldn't understand why the base position 911 wasn't a GT3 - why on earth produce any other variant as this is what a 911 should be - I genuinely think all cars should be a GT3 - I just can't understand why anyone would want to drive anything else

[RSVP911]

MDL111 said:

RSVP911 said:

isaldiri said:

RSVP911 said:

Agree the depreciation thing is for mugs or the very wealthy

Oddly enough, pre 2014 a lot of mugs were happy to buy the GT cars to drive despite the depreciation. Or perhaps everyone doing that was just all really rich......

Yep fair point - you're right to call me on it - let me expand on what I mean.

The Porsche GT overs / Aircoed market is a strange thing - it allows you to own amazing cars for very little - sometimes you get the opposite of depreciation - other times the depreciation rate is good relative to their peer group - this dynamic has allowed me to enjoy some great cars without the guilt that I'm wasting money on things I absolutely don't need - but I do love. It's brilliant.

I drive all my cars on road and occasionally on track (this is probably a good thing) My weekend is dominated by them to the point I am generally in trouble with my family for constantly "disappearing" . My DD is either a 981 Spyder or a GT4 .

I guess all I was saying is here is no way I'd own a lot of depreciating assets and if I bought other exotics that depreciate like stink then in my mind this would be an obscene waste of money - regardless if I could afford it or not - it would just feel wrong to me and as such, the Porsche thing really works for me.

Lastly, I bought my 991.1 GT3 before his "thing" started - put in LOI about 2 years before getting it.

Keep well

And this is why I think the market will revert to normal eventually, with possibly quite a big drop at some point - as you understandably say, you do not want to own a lot of depreciating assets and I suspect there are quite a few more people of the same opinion - There might come a time when quite a few will throw their cars on the market (esp the ones on finance) as the market will look like it is turning - sentiment shift and all that

Yeah maybe in fact , probably ; a correction will happen ........but the long game is set imho - rare air cooled and special older GT pork are not going to be repeated and will become more interesting as they get further removed from evolving modernity - they will bounce back and probably to a higher level than now - it may take some time but of this I'm certain. Let's see how the market looks in 10-15 years time.

[MDL111]

RSVP911 said:

MDL111 said:

RSVP911 said:

isaldiri said:

RSVP911 said:

Agree the depreciation thing is for mugs or the very wealthy

Oddly enough, pre 2014 a lot of mugs were happy to buy the GT cars to drive despite the depreciation. Or perhaps everyone doing that was just all really rich......

Yep fair point - you're right to call me on it - let me expand on what I mean.

The Porsche GT overs / Aircoed market is a strange thing - it allows you to own amazing cars for very little - sometimes you get the opposite of depreciation - other times the depreciation rate is good relative to their peer group - this dynamic has allowed me to enjoy some great cars without the guilt that I'm wasting money on things I absolutely don't need - but I do love. It's brilliant.

I drive all my cars on road and occasionally on track (this is probably a good thing) My weekend is dominated by them to the point I am generally in trouble with my family for constantly "disappearing" . My DD is either a 981 Spyder or a GT4 .

I guess all I was saying is here is no way I'd own a lot of depreciating assets and if I bought other exotics that depreciate like stink then in my mind this would be an obscene waste of money - regardless if I could afford it or not - it would just feel wrong to me and as such, the Porsche thing really works for me.

Lastly, I bought my 991.1 GT3 before his "thing" started - put in LOI about 2 years before getting it.

Keep well

And this is why I think the market will revert to normal eventually, with possibly quite a big drop at some point - as you understandably say, you do not want to own a lot of depreciating assets and I suspect there are quite a few more people of the same opinion - There might come a time when quite a few will throw their cars on the market (esp the ones on finance) as the market will look like it is turning - sentiment shift and all that

Yeah maybe in fact , probably ; a correction will happen ........but the long game is set imho - rare air cooled and special older GT pork are not going to be repeated and will become more interesting as they get further removed from evolving modernity - they will bounce back and probably to a higher level than now - it may take some time but of this I'm certain. Let's see how the market looks in 10-15 years time.

I agree with you, but I would not necessarily include a 991 RS in that category - it is the first of the new breed of RS cars and the 991.2 will probably be very similar (kinda like 997.1 and 997.2) - and I do think eventually the 997 will be worth much more as the 991 was just built in too large numbers. In any case they are all great Cars, I would just not bet on no correction ever - if you then sit on in (i.e. Drive it) for another decade without losing sleep over it, you win on all levels anyway.