No more Porsche Diesels

[Phooey]

gtsralph said:

@Porsche CEO, Oliver Blume, in interview with @BILDamSONNTAG: "There will be no more diesels in the future from Porsche. We have never developed, produced diesel engines ourselves. Nevertheless, Porsche's image has suffered. The diesel crisis has caused us a lot of trouble."

Bit disappointing. Early days but I think it could be bad news for Cayenne sales in the UK. Also on the Porsche news feed -

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/company/porsche-el...

[chazd]

Be the last of these kind of figures then?

[Cheib]

Phooey said:

gtsralph said:

@Porsche CEO, Oliver Blume, in interview with @BILDamSONNTAG: "There will be no more diesels in the future from Porsche. We have never developed, produced diesel engines ourselves. Nevertheless, Porsche's image has suffered. The diesel crisis has caused us a lot of trouble."

Bit disappointing. Early days but I think it could be bad news for Cayenne sales in the UK. Also on the Porsche news feed -

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/company/porsche-el...

I think it’ll be very bad news, biggest sellers by a massive amount in the old cars.

Looks like our S Diesel won’t be going anywhere for a while....not a believer in the Hybrid in its current form unless you get tax breaks or do a very short commute etc Needs a 100 mile range on batteries before it becomes an option.

[Escort Si-130]

Not its only disappointing to you, poor mans fuel = diesel.

Phooey said:

Bit disappointing. Early days but I think it could be bad news for Cayenne sales in the UK. Also on the Porsche news feed -

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/company/porsche-el...

[Escort Si-130]

I am glad, it s a stupid decision to go diesel in 2008 and just made the brand more common as muck.
I congratulate Porsche on doing this.
I am also glad we never got a Ferrari diesel either.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45619994

[chazd]

Escort Si-130 said:

Not its only disappointing to you, poor mans fuel = diesel.

Phooey said:

Bit disappointing. Early days but I think it could be bad news for Cayenne sales in the UK. Also on the Porsche news feed -

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/company/porsche-el...

When you do 30k plus per annum and claim mileage then it is not at all.

I would not have bought a Cayenne if it was petrol only so enabled me to buy in to a brand as it had a vehicle that ticked all the boxes.

Will not be a Cayenne next for me unless I restrict my work mileage or run two vehicles personally which is not practicable.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Test drove a Macan the other week, 2L petrol.

Clicked on it's average fuel consumption since new. 23.4mpg.

fk that.

[5to1]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Test drove a Macan the other week, 2L petrol.

Clicked on it's average fuel consumption since new. 23.4mpg.

fk that.

Given its a demonstrator I would presume many people drive it like they stole it. So you could probably add a couple mpg to that figure.

Also if you're doing big miles I can see why mpg would be an important factor. But at average annual mileages or less, IMO the difference in fuel cost isn't as big a deal as some suggest. At 8k/year for example it would pale into insignificance compared to depreciation over 3 years.

I just don't see why a car is worth losing tens of thousands of pounds for, but then suddenly is crap because the fuel will cost you £1500 more :/

Edited by 5to1 on Sunday 23 September 22:29

[LaurasOtherHalf]

5to1 said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Test drove a Macan the other week, 2L petrol.

Clicked on it's average fuel consumption since new. 23.4mpg.

fk that.

Given its a demonstrator I would presume many people drive it like they stole it. So you could probably add a couple mpg to that figure.

Also if you're doing big miles I can see why mpg would be an important factor. But at average annual mileages or less, IMO the difference in fuel cost isn't as big a deal as some suggest. At 8k/year for example it would pale into insignificance compared to depreciation over 3 years.

I just don't see why a car is worth losing tens of thousands of pounds for, but then suddenly is crap because the fuel will cost you a couple of grand more :/

Because both cars will depreciate.

Plus, both cars will probably be bought on some £XXX per month deal, so why make it £XXX+£300 ppm in fuel when a derv would be £XXX+£200.

We don't do massive mileage but we are rural so the family car does 25 mins of 60+mph driving each way every day. A diesel works, believe me.

[5to1]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

5to1 said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Test drove a Macan the other week, 2L petrol.

Clicked on it's average fuel consumption since new. 23.4mpg.

fk that.

Given its a demonstrator I would presume many people drive it like they stole it. So you could probably add a couple mpg to that figure.

Also if you're doing big miles I can see why mpg would be an important factor. But at average annual mileages or less, IMO the difference in fuel cost isn't as big a deal as some suggest. At 8k/year for example it would pale into insignificance compared to depreciation over 3 years.

I just don't see why a car is worth losing tens of thousands of pounds for, but then suddenly is crap because the fuel will cost you a couple of grand more :/

Because both cars will depreciate.

Plus, both cars will probably be bought on some £XXX per month deal, so why make it £XXX+£300 ppm in fuel when a derv would be £XXX+£200.

We don't do massive mileage but we are rural so the family car does 25 mins of 60+mph driving each way every day. A diesel works, believe me.

Of course both cars will depreciate and the depreciation (or finance/lease payments) will usually be by far the biggest cost on a premium car.

To provide some perspective, presuming 24k miles over 3 years:

24k miles @ 25 mpg @ 130.8p/L = £5708.44

24k miles @ 35 mpg @ 134.2p/L = £4183.44

About £40/month difference. I struggle to see why someone is prepared to drop >£600/month (looking at CHL) on a Macan and then suddenly financial prudence kicks in over £40/month.

Its a highly irrational purchase, prospective buyers must really like the car to consider dropping so much money on it in the first place. So why would they suddenly switch to second choice over what amounts to a couple of months payments/depreciation?

NB: My last car was a diesel, so I appreciate the economy they can deliver. But in terms of overall cost 10mpg isn't as big a deal when you do the sums.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

£1.5k in my back pocket sounds good to me

[champ19ns]

So last of the diesel engined Cayenne’s should hold value pretty well going forward?

[gtsralph]

champ19ns said:

So last of the diesel engined Cayenne’s should hold value pretty well going forward?

Just like the last normally aspirated GT cars...

[aeropilot]

chazd said:

Escort Si-130 said:

Not its only disappointing to you, poor mans fuel = diesel.

Phooey said:

Bit disappointing. Early days but I think it could be bad news for Cayenne sales in the UK. Also on the Porsche news feed -

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/company/porsche-el...

When you do 30k plus per annum and claim mileage then it is not at all.

I would not have bought a Cayenne if it was petrol only so enabled me to buy in to a brand as it had a vehicle that ticked all the boxes.

Will not be a Cayenne next for me unless I restrict my work mileage or run two vehicles personally which is not practicable.

I now wish I'd bought a run out last gen Cayenne D 18 months ago, but held off in anticipation of the next gen one, as was trying to juggle one more car change to see me through to just before retirement.......


Hybrid tech simply doesn't work for bigger mileages, even more so when you look at the price differential to buy the damn things in the first place, and given you're wasting fuel lugging around a largely redundant battery pack....

[5to1]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

£1.5k in my back pocket sounds good to me

Even a £1 extra in my pocket is not to be sniffed at

But when I'm dropping north of £20k over 3 years, £1.5k wont sway my decision either way personally. I'm not going to suddenly decide "hell no, I'll buy a RR instead". That's the point I'm trying to make. Not specifically directed at you. Just find it strange that something so minor in the grand scheme of losses is blown up into a game changer

[5to1]

aeropilot said:

chazd said:

Escort Si-130 said:

Not its only disappointing to you, poor mans fuel = diesel.

Phooey said:

Bit disappointing. Early days but I think it could be bad news for Cayenne sales in the UK. Also on the Porsche news feed -

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/company/porsche-el...

When you do 30k plus per annum and claim mileage then it is not at all.

I would not have bought a Cayenne if it was petrol only so enabled me to buy in to a brand as it had a vehicle that ticked all the boxes.

Will not be a Cayenne next for me unless I restrict my work mileage or run two vehicles personally which is not practicable.

I now wish I'd bought a run out last gen Cayenne D 18 months ago, but held off in anticipation of the next gen one, as was trying to juggle one more car change to see me through to just before retirement.......


Hybrid tech simply doesn't work for bigger mileages, even more so when you look at the price differential to buy the damn things in the first place, and given you're wasting fuel lugging around a largely redundant battery pack....

Surely there will be some available still? Alternatively I suspect quite a few AUC cars will turn up as production re-starts and people get their new cars.

WRT Hybrid the battery's aren't dead weight once drained. They will recharge during the journey and a bit faster now they've switched to 48v. The point of hybrid tech is not to allow predominantly electric propulsion. It's to widen the efficiency band of the combustion engine they are paired with.

As an example at take off and low speeds if I keep my petrol Cayenne below 2k rpm it is significantly more efficient. (I don't do that often as a low miler, I bought the car to enjoy it). If the battery's were able to kick in and widen the efficiency band to 2.5k rpm that would yield significant benefits in fuel consumption, despite them being redundant for the majority of the journey.

The key issue is getting regenerative energy into the battery. Current battery tech requires a high PD to quickly get energy into the battery, but they are improving in this area. IMO within the next 5 years they will get to the stage where they will be able to outstrip diesels in efficiency by harnessing enough regenerative energy to significantly widen petrol engines efficiency band in key areas. Ofcourse they could implement the same tech on Diesel engines to widen their efficiency band, but it looks like the days of diesel for other then heavy lifting are coming to an end. Living in London, personally I don't lament that political choice.

I do however lament the ill judged political decision to push diesel so heavily. As either individuals or the state (which is ultimately the tax payer) will end up holding the can.

[aeropilot]

5to1 said:

I do however lament the ill judged political decision to push diesel so heavily. As either individuals or the state (which is ultimately the tax payer) will end up holding the can.

Indeed.

I think for bigger and heavier vehicles diesels definately have their place (such as SUV's etc), but the wholesale push of diesels through advantageous taxation whereby people bought small cars with diesel engines when they really didn't need to was typical Govt myopic thought process - all because it was fixated on CO2 figures at the expense of everything else.

[irfan1712]

depreciation aside, 20k+ a year calls for a diesel in my eyes. I think most of the 'diesel are killing the world' chat is probably right, but surely not against the newest Euro6 diesels? their cleaner than ever.

I changed my C63 (6.2) for a Panamera 4S V8 Diesel. In terms of driving, I miss the bang and crack of that petrol v8 - something a diesel will never replicate. But the torque in the Panamera means driving it is just so effortless - 70mph and the engine is barely ticking over. Its the only diesel I have ever driven which pulls until its time to change gear with no flat spots at all.. staggering actually and completely changed my perception of modern diesels.

As a petrol head, I do miss petrol yes. But the diesel V8 in my car while Audi derived (SQ7) is just phenomenal. No indication its diesel other than idle either.

I've managed a solid 39mpg over the last 3k miles of ownership, in a car weighing two tonnes, can do 4.3 to 60 and is about the same size as the village I live in and I've sat at motorway speeds for around 60% of that 3kmiles. Expensive to fill, but it'll do 600-650 miles between fill ups if I'm gentle, which means less time at a pump - something that gets very boring with the c63.

I had to sign a disclaimer from Porsche stating that if there was some ridiculous diesel epidemic and bans were in place to make the car I bought unroad worthy, they would pay a large % of the car back to me in line with the purchase price, dependant on age and mileage. While Porsche may have stopped diesel engines for a minute the disclaimer does give prospective new or used owners of a diesel Porsche some confidence with their purchase... do any other manufacturers do this or is it just Porsche?

[grumpynuts]

The problem all now is that no European manufacturer has invested in proper hybrids like Toyota and Lexus have, they are now frantically stuffing underdeveloped battery packs into the boot's of petrol engined cars and calling them hybrids, when if fact they are technically plug ins. As we all know, these manufacturers have been pumping the majority of their R&D into diesel engines, and largely kicked their petrol offerings into the long grass.
They have been caught out with the whole dieselgate thing and WLTP and are flapping like a flounder on a quayside.Currently, the only decent hybrid 4x4 is the Lexus RX450, a proper self charging hybrid with no range issues and a nice 3.5 V6 petrol in the front. Porsche will have to start making cars like that as many folk don't want to, or simply can't have, have a charging point at work or at home.
I don't dispute how good to drive a lot of diesel cars currently are, but they spew out so much toxic crap, they have been found out, and things have got to change. We could be in for some interesting innovations in the next 5 years.

[aeropilot]

woollyjoe said:

On one hand, you can hate diesel Porsche's, but without them, the other cars may not be here.

Dunno about that, but all those shiny big new UK OPC's that have been built in the past decade have largely been built on the back of diesel Porsche sales I suspect.

Ignoring this year because of the production interruption etc., it will certainly be interesting at the end of next year to compare UK sales figures for Macan, Cayenne and Panamera for calender year 2019, compared to say 2017, the last full year of diesel sales.