996 GT3, 997 GT3, Cayman GT4
Discussion
n12maser said:
Out of interest is kw V3 the classic choice for making the 996.2 GT3 slightly more (British) road compliant yet still locked down on track?
I was advised on just refurbing (or using refurbed) OEM suspension for the road, if your not looking to adjust settings etc. Ohlin R&T was also being, at the time -circa 2 years ago, as being the next big thing.Though tyre choice (im running MPSS at the rear), can also soften things up.
BertBert said:
Wow, great feedback so far and a lot to take in. No time to do that now, but I'll read over the weekend and respond.
One thing I did do was to have a better look at prices and found both the GT4 and 997 GT3 to be possibly over my budget range. I have wondered for a while how close you could get a 'standard' 996 to be like a GT3 in feel, pointyness and balance (probably not at all worried about outright speed for use on the road).
The Hartech rebuild that 911V have might make a good starting point.
All food for thought and thanks for the brilliant info.
Bert
Id imagine £40k inc base car purchase to turn it into a GT3-lite, but then theres the 200k mile GT3 up for auction that had a engine rebuild 28k miles ago. But youd need to be quick as not sure when the auction isOne thing I did do was to have a better look at prices and found both the GT4 and 997 GT3 to be possibly over my budget range. I have wondered for a while how close you could get a 'standard' 996 to be like a GT3 in feel, pointyness and balance (probably not at all worried about outright speed for use on the road).
The Hartech rebuild that 911V have might make a good starting point.
All food for thought and thanks for the brilliant info.
Bert
lemmingjames said:
Id imagine £40k inc base car purchase to turn it into a GT3-lite, but then theres the 200k mile GT3 up for auction that had a engine rebuild 28k miles ago. But youd need to be quick as not sure when the auction is
7th July 
Although I'm not really in a position to change that quickly sadly.
I'm pretty sure that car will sell quite well as there is a lot of interest in a 'bargain'!
t hot suspension 😉BertBert said:
I have wondered for a while how close you could get a 'standard' 996 to be like a GT3 in feel, pointyness and balance (probably not at all worried about outright speed for use on the road).
Bert
I think you can get close. It just depends on what you're looking for.Bert
My old 996 CSR is for sale at RPM Technik. Take a look at that and you'll see an example of what you could do. I should add I have no interest in the car having already sold it to RPM.
On the KW v3s, with a lower ride height, some negative camber, corner weighting and geo, if your priority is ride/handling balance then a modified 996 can exceed the stock set-up on a 996.2 GT3. I should add that the ride was more aggressive on the CSR than the stock GT3 but the quality of the damping on the KWs is the stand out thing. The 996 C2 can be a proper hot rod but definitely benefits from a l/w flywheel and an uprated LSD (RPM use the Wavetrac one). Really needs to be experienced to be fully appreciated.
n12maser said:
Out of interest is kw V3 the classic choice for making the 996.2 GT3 slightly more (British) road compliant yet still locked down on track?
There are various options depending on desired use and budget. My perception is that the KW V3 was honed at the Ring and therefore is a good option for Ring and Road use. The damping is a tad soft for traditional circuit use.For hard circuit use again there are various options. The two that come to mind are KW Clubsport and Nitron Race. With these you can opt for simple 1-way damping adjustment to more sophisticated 3-way damping adjustment.
I suspect Ohlins also have some options for road and circuit.
My 996 GT3 CS has Nitron R3 (Race 3-way adjustables) and I find them superb for track use. On the road they are quite firm - I enjoy the car on road too though I can see it might be a bit too aggressive for others.
Having just returned from Silverstone today where I had a very track setup KTM X-Bow with trick suspension and a 7.2RS on std dampers, I cannot but highlight how important dampers are for circuit use. Most road biased dampers are too soft and may limit what one can learn (well the first 80% is fine, the next 20% is better explored with better damping).
The 996/997 cars had imv relatively basic damping. The latest 9x1 cars are pretty amazing in that the latest suspensions are good at both road and circuit (though I am not a big fan of the PASM setup and prefer passives). For the earlier cars, if used on circuit, then a quality suspension can really open the cars up. As a comparison, my 996 GT3 on Nitrons is only some 2 seconds slower than the 997rs on std suspension around Silverstone (caveat: in my hands and I am NOT a pro reference). I am sure the 997rs with Nitrons would be significantly quicker on circuit (but then not many are used that way anymore which is a different topic!)
Edited by LaSource on Thursday 21st June 20:52
LaSource said:
n12maser said:
Out of interest is kw V3 the classic choice for making the 996.2 GT3 slightly more (British) road compliant yet still locked down on track?
There are various options depending on desired use and budget. My perception is that the KW V3 was honed at the Ring and therefore is a good option for Ring and Road use. The damping is a tad soft for traditional circuit use.For hard circuit use again there are various options. The two that come to mind are KW Clubsport and Nitron Race. With these you can opt for simple 1-way damping adjustment to more sophisticated 3-way damping adjustment.
I suspect Ohlins also have some options for road and circuit.
My 996 GT3 CS has Nitron R3 (Race 3-way adjustables) and I find them superb for track use. On the road they are quite firm - I enjoy the car on road too though I can see it might be a bit too aggressive for others.
Having just returned from Silverstone today where I had a very track setup KTM X-Bow with trick suspension and a 7.2RS on std dampers, I cannot but highlight how important dampers are for circuit use. Most road biased dampers are too soft and may limit what one can learn (well the first 80% is fine, the next 20% is better explored with better damping).
The 996/997 cars had imv relatively basic damping. The latest 9x1 cars are pretty amazing in that the latest suspensions are good at both road and circuit (though I am not a big fan of the PASM setup and prefer passives). For the earlier cars, if used on circuit, then a quality suspension can really open the cars up. As a comparison, my 996 GT3 on Nitrons is only some 2 seconds slower than the 997rs on std suspension around Silverstone (caveat: in my hands and I am NOT a pro reference). I am sure the 997rs with Nitrons would be significantly quicker on circuit (but then not many are used that way anymore which is a different topic!)
Edited by LaSource on Thursday 21st June 20:52
Around £7k for 4 corners IIRC
fergus said:
Depending upon your budget for suspension, the guys at Exe-TC should be on your list of people to speak to: https://www.exe-tc.co.uk/porsche
Around £7k for 4 corners IIRC
Yes..and there is also Tractive Suspension - especially as a PASM replacement with the TPC Racing DSC module as well. I'm trying hard to ignore this option Around £7k for 4 corners IIRC
BertBert said:
Dan911 said:
I have a 996.1 GT3 CS and find myself looking at GT4's.. So a great topic this, for me.
Have you driven the GT4 to compare?I know I would want the car to be a 'Event' when I do get chance to drive it, so Clubbie GT4 it would have to be if I did change.
Have you driven one v your 996RS?
I think I've decided that I am budget constrained, so wouldn't be able to go for a GT4 or 997 GT3 anyway. It's a long while since I had the RS, so my memory will be hazy. So I'm probably going to keep a watching eye on the 996 GT3s out there.
Dan911 said:
Have you driven one v your 996RS?
Steve Rance said:
Porsche911R said:
As I say just different, I find 911 drivers over brake a mid engine car into the bends, I own rear engine, mid and front and drive all most days , but learnt how to really drive fast in mid engine cars, imo they are the hardest to drive the fastest closest to the limit or over it in some cases.
The switch from mid to rear is easier imo. you can drive a GT4 like a GT3 if you wish(you will be slow but you can drive it the same), you cannot drive a GT3 like a GT4 so you have to change or understeer off at the 1st bend.
911 owners seem to always say "hard to drive" then cannot move to other layouts very well.... or do but then are not driving fast enough so say it's easy ! as driving a mid engine car at 95% it is fairly easy I guess.
I agree with EPS, I hate it, in the new 991.2 GT3 though it's gob smaking good, you can feel the road surface change which is a 1st in EPS to a point EPS on the new GT range is a non issue.
I can drive my GT3 far closer or over the limit easier than the GT4 I had, GT3's are very progressive and very throttle adjustable, the GT4 when the grip goes you have to be far faster and it's less progressive. I cannot drift a GT4 very well, it's pretty easy in a GT3 on the throttle with that engine out back. Also out the bends in mid engine you have less traction, where you can lean on a GT3 for grip out the bends and it's very easy to look a hero and power slide it out at will.
As always the skill is into the bends in all cars esp manuals under brakes. the rest of track driving is pretty simple.
I make all my time up on track days into bends in my slower cars over faster cars on track.
While a novice might get to 95% in a GT4 faster than a GT3 a GT4 is harder at 100% imo
Interesting. So what would you say was the most difficult element of each when driving a rear engined car and driving a mid engined car?The switch from mid to rear is easier imo. you can drive a GT4 like a GT3 if you wish(you will be slow but you can drive it the same), you cannot drive a GT3 like a GT4 so you have to change or understeer off at the 1st bend.
911 owners seem to always say "hard to drive" then cannot move to other layouts very well.... or do but then are not driving fast enough so say it's easy ! as driving a mid engine car at 95% it is fairly easy I guess.
I agree with EPS, I hate it, in the new 991.2 GT3 though it's gob smaking good, you can feel the road surface change which is a 1st in EPS to a point EPS on the new GT range is a non issue.
I can drive my GT3 far closer or over the limit easier than the GT4 I had, GT3's are very progressive and very throttle adjustable, the GT4 when the grip goes you have to be far faster and it's less progressive. I cannot drift a GT4 very well, it's pretty easy in a GT3 on the throttle with that engine out back. Also out the bends in mid engine you have less traction, where you can lean on a GT3 for grip out the bends and it's very easy to look a hero and power slide it out at will.
As always the skill is into the bends in all cars esp manuals under brakes. the rest of track driving is pretty simple.
I make all my time up on track days into bends in my slower cars over faster cars on track.
While a novice might get to 95% in a GT4 faster than a GT3 a GT4 is harder at 100% imo
Genuine interest, no trick question.
Still waiting for an answer to this one?
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