996 GT3, 997 GT3, Cayman GT4
Discussion
Steve Rance said:
Bump..
Still waiting for an answer to this one?
it's not a straight forward answer lolStill waiting for an answer to this one?
the GT4 you drive at 99.9% to get a lap the 911 you drive at 103% the latter you have to be happy with the car moving about under you so you need the controls and feel to allow it, the GT4 is like threading a needle and the fastest laps are at 99.9 % I think people have issue driving the GT4 at 99.9 % though !
neither are harder than the other although the GT4 is harder if you go over that 99.9% limit , both different, the 911 is easier as you plan to drive the car over the limit, the GT4 you don't really want to go over the limit at all and if you do it's not that easy a car to handle and it will slow your lap time.
911 are easy to drive over the limit if you have the feel and that's how they are driven.
both rewarding, people say GT4 is easy but they maybe drive at 96%, people say 911 are hard because you are driving at 103% and that can feel rewarding as your inputs are more. but the cars more progressive so while it looks trick in a you tube vid it's not really any harder.
Track driving is pretty straight forward for most of it, it's all about corner entry, that's it.
So the key to fast hot laps is track knowledge and corner entry at the top levels, the rest falls into place at this level.
miss Eau Rouge entry by 1 foot and the whole bend is a pitter and then so it the straight line speed, hit Eau Rouge mm perfect the bends very easy and then you gain max speed down the straight.
Driving cars is not that hard, people seem to make it hard or lack the basics of threshold braking etc.
This comes from zero seat time, ie people drive to work in traffic and only spend a few hours in a car on track or at weekends, these people will never be fast esp in a 911 where you do have to take them over 100% of grip to get that pole lap time.
You see a novice do OK laps in PDK cars now days, although they kill their tyres and seem to over heat their brakes !! but they won't set any lap records. but the trick electrics gets them into the bend !!! the rest is easy
Race craft is hard and a whole other Ball game. Hop laps pretty straight forward if you know how to drive in the 1st place and know the track inside out. I expect every one into cars to know about slip angles and threshold braking and car balance, if they want to track at any thing other than snails place.
I hope that makes some sense :-)
nice vid showing how a 911 is being driven at 103% to get pole.
https://youtu.be/t10yzkVNgxc
here is a GT4 fastest lap driven at 99.9 looks less exciting, but to nail that lap takes the same skill threading that needle trying to keep the car within 100% grip
https://youtu.be/DvgIdFEZy4U
Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 25th June 14:14
Cheib said:
Article in Evo comparing 996 GT3 to the 991.2 GT3. Summary "They're both bloody good"
If their last article comparing a poorly set up, badly shod, Comfort seat equipped, 100k example of a Mk1 996 GT3 (I drove it) with a factory fresh Gen 1 991 GT3 was anything to go by, I'd save your money and a Brazilian rainforest as a consequence ... IIRC that piece was by John Barker , who I normally rate, but in this instance his article was truly abysmal.Porsche911R said:
Track driving is pretty straight forward for most of it, it's all about corner entry, that's it.
Several professional drivers would suggest it's about corner exit in terms of maximising drive..... (e.g. Michael Krumm: Driving on the Edge 2015: The Art and Science of Race Driving)The same definitely holds true when on a bike. As Simon Crafar says, "it's not who's on the throttle first, it's who's on full throttle first..." only planning your corner exit allows you to do this. Losing speed into a corner doesn't tend to matter as much as being able to hit a higher speed on the following straight.
fergus said:
Several professional drivers would suggest it's about corner exit in terms of maximising drive..... (e.g. Michael Krumm: Driving on the Edge 2015: The Art and Science of Race Driving)
The same definitely holds true when on a bike. As Simon Crafar says, "it's not who's on the throttle first, it's who's on full throttle first..." only planning your corner exit allows you to do this. Losing speed into a corner doesn't tend to matter as much as being able to hit a higher speed on the following straight.
get the entry right the exits follows, get the entry wrong you have to adjust line and your exit is wrong big style.The same definitely holds true when on a bike. As Simon Crafar says, "it's not who's on the throttle first, it's who's on full throttle first..." only planning your corner exit allows you to do this. Losing speed into a corner doesn't tend to matter as much as being able to hit a higher speed on the following straight.
Fast laps is corner entry and track knowledge nothing else matters or is a bi product. Fast exit is a bi product of a proper entry and maxing out apex speed. there is nothing to plan you should know the fastest line already.
Have you driven Spa ? it's a good example due to the long straight after Eau Rouge. get the entry wrong by a foot you are way down on vmax on the next straight, this can be off set by cheating and cutting the top of the bend and many people seem to get away with that !
As I stated in the GT4 it's about getting to 99.9% I think most people who track GT4's say to themselves, "I could have done that corner faster" most scrub off too much speed for the Apex, then the exit is screwed anyway as your apex speed is 20 mph too slow you never make that back up. plan the exit as much as you like you have lost 20mph at the apex you are never getting back. There is only 1 fastest line !!! get the entry wrong and you are off it ! if that's a series of 3 bends you might as well give up that lap.
Alonso is master of race craft, he does not go gun hoe in an out braking pass, he plans his over takes 3 laps before, he forces the other car to go off the fastest line protecting the inside line, then gets his entry spot on which maximizes his exit speed and thus his over take is done.
Top driver and imo one of the best. most others get into an out braking battle and that risky, works best on tighter bends.
While I agree a mid engine car is an inherently more difficult car to drive quickly in many respects (smaller polar moment of inertia, less warning and harder to gather up when it goes), I could not disagree more with 991R that the gt4 is a more difficult car to drive fast than a 996/997 gt3.
It's a generational thing, the modern trend is for sports cars that are fast and relatively easy to drive quickly. That really marks the 9X1 cars out compared to prior generations and the 991 gt3s and .1rs has been very much the same.. Put it this way, put a good pro in the gt4 and a 996gt3. Most keen trackday amateurs will be considerably closer in laptime in the gt4 to the pro driver's time vs the 996 gt3. That in my book means easier to drive.
It's a generational thing, the modern trend is for sports cars that are fast and relatively easy to drive quickly. That really marks the 9X1 cars out compared to prior generations and the 991 gt3s and .1rs has been very much the same.. Put it this way, put a good pro in the gt4 and a 996gt3. Most keen trackday amateurs will be considerably closer in laptime in the gt4 to the pro driver's time vs the 996 gt3. That in my book means easier to drive.
isaldiri said:
While I agree a mid engine car is an inherently more difficult car to drive quickly in many respects (smaller polar moment of inertia, less warning and harder to gather up when it goes), I could not disagree more with 991R that the gt4 is a more difficult car to drive fast than a 996/997 gt3.
It's a generational thing, the modern trend is for sports cars that are fast and relatively easy to drive quickly. That really marks the 9X1 cars out compared to prior generations and the 991 gt3s and .1rs has been very much the same.. Put it this way, put a good pro in the gt4 and a 996gt3. Most keen trackday amateurs will be considerably closer in laptime in the gt4 to the pro driver's time vs the 996 gt3. That in my book means easier to drive.
This x100It's a generational thing, the modern trend is for sports cars that are fast and relatively easy to drive quickly. That really marks the 9X1 cars out compared to prior generations and the 991 gt3s and .1rs has been very much the same.. Put it this way, put a good pro in the gt4 and a 996gt3. Most keen trackday amateurs will be considerably closer in laptime in the gt4 to the pro driver's time vs the 996 gt3. That in my book means easier to drive.
isaldiri said:
While I agree a mid engine car is an inherently more difficult car to drive quickly in many respects (smaller polar moment of inertia, less warning and harder to gather up when it goes), I could not disagree more with 991R that the gt4 is a more difficult car to drive fast than a 996/997 gt3.
It's a generational thing, the modern trend is for sports cars that are fast and relatively easy to drive quickly. That really marks the 9X1 cars out compared to prior generations and the 991 gt3s and .1rs has been very much the same.. Put it this way, put a good pro in the gt4 and a 996gt3. Most keen trackday amateurs will be considerably closer in laptime in the gt4 to the pro driver's time vs the 996 gt3. That in my book means easier to drive.
so you started with "While I agree a mid engine car is an inherently more difficult car to drive quickly in many respects "It's a generational thing, the modern trend is for sports cars that are fast and relatively easy to drive quickly. That really marks the 9X1 cars out compared to prior generations and the 991 gt3s and .1rs has been very much the same.. Put it this way, put a good pro in the gt4 and a 996gt3. Most keen trackday amateurs will be considerably closer in laptime in the gt4 to the pro driver's time vs the 996 gt3. That in my book means easier to drive.
then said, you think some one might be closer to a pro's time in a GT4, that's just a guess !
I gel very well with my GT3 and I find I am faster in it because one can drive it over the limit, I can also drift it far longer than I ever could my GT4.
I think the times from mr amateur to Pro would be the same, I have been in many GT4's, people don't drive them fast enough or play to their strengths.
The cars are just different, neither is harder to lap than the other, as long as you can drive to a standard.
The work load might be a tad more in the GT3 but it's an easy workload, looks trick on you tube vids and has given the owners this hype of they are hard as nails !!
every owner who has spent time in 911's is slower in the GT4 and then says it's easy, when they are way off a hot lap time !
The only cars easy to drive and will give amateurs that closer lap time are PDK cars with e-diffs.
As I said the only bit you have to do to get a lap right is corner entry, and if you are in a manual car all the skill is in the braking/down change and turn in. To get that to 99.9% in a GT4 is just as hard as any other car.
out the bend the GT3 is easer to manage it has more traction, you have to be carefull in the GT4 out the bends due to traction.
Edited by Porsche911R on Tuesday 26th June 08:53
lemmingjames said:
Do you ever just sit there and think; ive wasted my life as an IT Contractor and could have been a top championship winning driver/the modern day Nicki Lauda?
maybe :-)I am still waiting on here for some one to agree it's all about entry not exit which every one harps on about.
Do people watch the real pro's and take notes !!! Alonso over takes due to entry planned 3 laps before, a true driver and has great race craft.
Some one like lewis again key to hot laps, F1 is mid engine btw watch his lap
no locks up, threshold braking is key to his lap as is apex speeds and thus little steering wheel action with very few corrections driving at 99.9 % in the limit just about for the full lap.
https://youtu.be/8D_uhuf3UkI
Think its bit of a stretch to compare a GT4 to an F1 car tbh and the handling characteristics, just because there mid-engined doesnt make them equal.
Also, neither the 996/7 have the latest tech you are going on about so again not comparable either.
Though atleast we know you ragged your car before the engine was broken in on track
Also, neither the 996/7 have the latest tech you are going on about so again not comparable either.
Though atleast we know you ragged your car before the engine was broken in on track
lemmingjames said:
Think its bit of a stretch to compare a GT4 to an F1 car tbh and the handling characteristics, just because there mid-engined doesnt make them equal.
Also, neither the 996/7 have the latest tech you are going on about so again not comparable either.
Though atleast we know you ragged your car before the engine was broken in on track
It was a lapse responding to your post, I'll not do it again ;-pAlso, neither the 996/7 have the latest tech you are going on about so again not comparable either.
Though atleast we know you ragged your car before the engine was broken in on track
watching that F1 pole lap key was key to get the best from a GT4, if you miss that then there is no hope.
but hey, you de winged a GT3 lol :-)
here how not to do it lol but then he spins his car on warm up laps lol !!!
https://youtu.be/8gGTUiHZTMs
Slippydiff said:
If their last article comparing a poorly set up, badly shod, Comfort seat equipped, 100k example of a Mk1 996 GT3 (I drove it) with a factory fresh Gen 1 991 GT3 was anything to go by, I'd save your money and a Brazilian rainforest as a consequence ... IIRC that piece was by John Barker , who I normally rate, but in this instance his article was truly abysmal.
Agree, with Slippy here, as its my car the original test drive almost had me walking away but with new tyres, some bushes and mounts replaced and a proper alignment its changed the car totally... thank god I didn't walk!!Porsche911R said:
so you started with "While I agree a mid engine car is an inherently more difficult car to drive quickly in many respects "
then said, you think some one might be closer to a pro's time in a GT4, that's just a guess !
I think the times from mr amateur to Pro would be the same,
The cars are just different, neither is harder to lap than the other, as long as you can drive to a standard.
every owner who has spent time in 911's is slower in the GT4 and then says it's easy, when they are way off a hot lap time !
As I said the only bit you have to do to get a lap right is corner entry, and if you are in a manual car all the skill is in the braking/down change and turn in. To get that to 99.9% in a GT4 is just as hard as any other car.
out the bend the GT3 is easer to manage it has more traction, you have to be carefull in the GT4 out the bends due to traction.
You have been told (multiple times) by Steve Rance who actually races and a few others here who have rather a lot of track experience (and who owned gt4s) differently that the earlier gen gt3s are more difficult to get a good laptime than a gt4. With your vast on track experience or due to your (very expensive) sim racing rig, you know better and you think driving quickly on track is easy. Ok - fine.then said, you think some one might be closer to a pro's time in a GT4, that's just a guess !
I think the times from mr amateur to Pro would be the same,
The cars are just different, neither is harder to lap than the other, as long as you can drive to a standard.
every owner who has spent time in 911's is slower in the GT4 and then says it's easy, when they are way off a hot lap time !
As I said the only bit you have to do to get a lap right is corner entry, and if you are in a manual car all the skill is in the braking/down change and turn in. To get that to 99.9% in a GT4 is just as hard as any other car.
out the bend the GT3 is easer to manage it has more traction, you have to be carefull in the GT4 out the bends due to traction.
Porsche911R said:
it's not a straight forward answer lol
the GT4 you drive at 99.9% to get a lap the 911 you drive at 103% the latter you have to be happy with the car moving about under you so you need the controls and feel to allow it, the GT4 is like threading a needle and the fastest laps are at 99.9 % I think people have issue driving the GT4 at 99.9 % though !
neither are harder than the other although the GT4 is harder if you go over that 99.9% limit , both different, the 911 is easier as you plan to drive the car over the limit, the GT4 you don't really want to go over the limit at all and if you do it's not that easy a car to handle and it will slow your lap time.
911 are easy to drive over the limit if you have the feel and that's how they are driven.
both rewarding, people say GT4 is easy but they maybe drive at 96%, people say 911 are hard because you are driving at 103% and that can feel rewarding as your inputs are more. but the cars more progressive so while it looks trick in a you tube vid it's not really any harder.
Track driving is pretty straight forward for most of it, it's all about corner entry, that's it.
So the key to fast hot laps is track knowledge and corner entry at the top levels, the rest falls into place at this level.
miss Eau Rouge entry by 1 foot and the whole bend is a pitter and then so it the straight line speed, hit Eau Rouge mm perfect the bends very easy and then you gain max speed down the straight.
Driving cars is not that hard, people seem to make it hard or lack the basics of threshold braking etc.
This comes from zero seat time, ie people drive to work in traffic and only spend a few hours in a car on track or at weekends, these people will never be fast esp in a 911 where you do have to take them over 100% of grip to get that pole lap time.
You see a novice do OK laps in PDK cars now days, although they kill their tyres and seem to over heat their brakes !! but they won't set any lap records. but the trick electrics gets them into the bend !!! the rest is easy
Race craft is hard and a whole other Ball game. Hop laps pretty straight forward if you know how to drive in the 1st place and know the track inside out. I expect every one into cars to know about slip angles and threshold braking and car balance, if they want to track at any thing other than snails place.
I hope that makes some sense :-)
nice vid showing how a 911 is being driven at 103% to get pole.
https://youtu.be/t10yzkVNgxc
here is a GT4 fastest lap driven at 99.9 looks less exciting, but to nail that lap takes the same skill threading that needle trying to keep the car within 100% grip
https://youtu.be/DvgIdFEZy4U
OK. I'm presuming that you mean that a 911 needs to be drven in a lose style and a Cayman in a precise style? To drive anything to it's maximium potential you need to be driving at 100%. If you are 99.9%, there is more time to find so you are under driving - thats a 10th of a second on a 100 second lap. If you drive at 103% you will be overdriving which mean that the car will be out of shape in some or all of the cornering phase so you will not only lose time but unecessarily incur tyre wear. It doesnt matter what layout the car has, the quickest way is generally the neatest way. Your perception of driving a 911GT car is wrong. The video example was an early short wheelbase 911 on hard control tyres, no propper diff control. It will be a lose car to drive because of these but the driver was keeping his lap as neat as possible giving his lack of physical and mechanical grip. It also has low power so the driver cannot afford the luxury of having the car settled on the apex because he has no power to deploy so he will carry as much momentum through the corner as he can rather than concentrate on deplyment on exit as there is no bhp benefit. All this considered, the quickest will still be the smoothest way of achieving this. This is a completely different technique to driving a modern 911GT car which has a longer wheelbase, propper diff control, a lot more power and much better brakes - its also a lot heavier. To get the best out of a GT3 the driver needs utilise these differences to find the fastest way to the apex whilst still having tha ability to deploy full throtlle immediately the car is rotated. To do that he will need to balance rotational grip of the tyre at threashold whilst rotating the car and balancing lateral grip loads at the same time. All this when the weight balance of the car is at the oposite end of the car to it's weight bias so one tiny mistake will result an oversteer accident prior to apex. As you say, from apex, if he's got everything else right, deploying power is relatively easy but to get there he has ovecome rotational grip, lateral grip and extreme weight transfer all at threashold and at the same time. A good driver will do this at 100% through each phase of the corner and his telementry will show the car over rotating all the way to apex without any steering correction. If he gets it right, there be few if any corrections needed because if he's going to win, he needs to keep his tyres in perfect shape. the GT4 you drive at 99.9% to get a lap the 911 you drive at 103% the latter you have to be happy with the car moving about under you so you need the controls and feel to allow it, the GT4 is like threading a needle and the fastest laps are at 99.9 % I think people have issue driving the GT4 at 99.9 % though !
neither are harder than the other although the GT4 is harder if you go over that 99.9% limit , both different, the 911 is easier as you plan to drive the car over the limit, the GT4 you don't really want to go over the limit at all and if you do it's not that easy a car to handle and it will slow your lap time.
911 are easy to drive over the limit if you have the feel and that's how they are driven.
both rewarding, people say GT4 is easy but they maybe drive at 96%, people say 911 are hard because you are driving at 103% and that can feel rewarding as your inputs are more. but the cars more progressive so while it looks trick in a you tube vid it's not really any harder.
Track driving is pretty straight forward for most of it, it's all about corner entry, that's it.
So the key to fast hot laps is track knowledge and corner entry at the top levels, the rest falls into place at this level.
miss Eau Rouge entry by 1 foot and the whole bend is a pitter and then so it the straight line speed, hit Eau Rouge mm perfect the bends very easy and then you gain max speed down the straight.
Driving cars is not that hard, people seem to make it hard or lack the basics of threshold braking etc.
This comes from zero seat time, ie people drive to work in traffic and only spend a few hours in a car on track or at weekends, these people will never be fast esp in a 911 where you do have to take them over 100% of grip to get that pole lap time.
You see a novice do OK laps in PDK cars now days, although they kill their tyres and seem to over heat their brakes !! but they won't set any lap records. but the trick electrics gets them into the bend !!! the rest is easy
Race craft is hard and a whole other Ball game. Hop laps pretty straight forward if you know how to drive in the 1st place and know the track inside out. I expect every one into cars to know about slip angles and threshold braking and car balance, if they want to track at any thing other than snails place.
I hope that makes some sense :-)
nice vid showing how a 911 is being driven at 103% to get pole.
https://youtu.be/t10yzkVNgxc
here is a GT4 fastest lap driven at 99.9 looks less exciting, but to nail that lap takes the same skill threading that needle trying to keep the car within 100% grip
https://youtu.be/DvgIdFEZy4U
Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 25th June 14:14
By comparison, the GT4 driver only has to manage lateral grip as he nears the apex. The trip into the apex will (should)be uneventful. All he will need to do is manage the rotational grip of the tyre at threashold braking. A good driver will tune himself into the slow and high speed lateral capabilities of the chassis in a few laps so it will just be a case of picking his braking point and - as you say - the rest should unravel although it will change depending on the bhp at his disposal.
I have pretty decent racing experience in both mid and rear engined cars. In the same car against a decent club level driver I would think I may have 1 or 1.5 seconds on an average lap. Put me in a 911 and i'm confident that I could find around half a second a corner.
Indulge me on this anecdote. Brands hatch GP in the GT cup. We entered a bog standard 997 Cup against a grip full of more powerful cars which included several 430 challenge cars, some which had aero and damping upgrades. We ran Michellins in Carrera cup but the control tyre in the GT Cup then was a Dunlop which wouldnt take the 4.5 deg of neg camber which we run on the Miches. So we wound the camber back to -2.5 and I adjusted my driving style as I figured that my braking footpint would improve but my entry footprint would deteriorate. I braked later, took more brake on initial trail and got on the throttle before the car had finished rotating. I took pole after 10 minutes of quali and sat in the car on its airjacks until the end of the session waiting to see if I needed to go out again.
I make this point because I think that you need to dig a lot deeper into what skill sets are needed to become a fast driver and what is required to extract an optimum lap from cars of different layouts or different set ups. A GT3 is a much more difficult car to drive at its full potential than a GT4. Both require neat and precise style but the 911 presents many more challenges from the top end of a driver's skill set. As a guide, if you are off of the throttle or brake anywhere in the cornering phase of a modern GT3 or not on full throttle immediately the car is rotated, you are losing time somewhere. In other words, you are working some or several control elements of the car at threashold all the way through the corner. You dont need to do that in a GT4
LaSource said:
Budflicker said:
It's not a clubsport, thats the techequipment roll cage.
Quite a regular missuse of the CS moniker I find in adverts. Infact majority of cars advertised as 'clubsport' or 'clubsport spec' cars tend not be a clubsport.Sir_chimpalot said:
Slippydiff said:
If their last article comparing a poorly set up, badly shod, Comfort seat equipped, 100k example of a Mk1 996 GT3 (I drove it) with a factory fresh Gen 1 991 GT3 was anything to go by, I'd save your money and a Brazilian rainforest as a consequence ... IIRC that piece was by John Barker , who I normally rate, but in this instance his article was truly abysmal.
Agree, with Slippy here, as its my car the original test drive almost had me walking away but with new tyres, some bushes and mounts replaced and a proper alignment its changed the car totally... thank god I didn't walk!!Looked great btw!
This thread has got me thinking about the 996.2 gt3, when I'd only ever considered the .1. think it'll end up like my 993 search where I just went for the best I could afford, as there are positives and negatives to both.
m33ufo said:
I've recently advertised mine....and haven't mentioned CS anywhere....mine however was fitted with the brushed steel cage from the factory (not a CS cage but factory fit).
Well, ultimately it is up to you in what is the best approach to sell your car 
...which could include calling it 'clubsport spec' or whatever, but there is room for confusion for newcomers to the model. But that is the natural course for selling and buying.I have had factory specced comfort car before and yes the bill of sale will show the factory fitted Tequipment cage. Think I also got Reading to send me a printout of the original delivery spec of the car which was part of my sales documentation.
Steve Rance said:
OK. I'm presuming that you mean that a 911 needs to be drven in a lose style and a Cayman in a precise style? To drive anything to it's maximium potential you need to be driving at 100%. If you are 99.9%, there is more time to find so you are under driving - thats a 10th of a second on a 100 second lap. If you drive at 103% you will be overdriving which mean that the car will be out of shape in some or all of the cornering phase so you will not only lose time but unecessarily incur tyre wear. It doesnt matter what layout the car has, the quickest way is generally the neatest way. Your perception of driving a 911GT car is wrong. The video example was an early short wheelbase 911 on hard control tyres, no propper diff control. It will be a lose car to drive because of these but the driver was keeping his lap as neat as possible giving his lack of physical and mechanical grip. It also has low power so the driver cannot afford the luxury of having the car settled on the apex because he has no power to deploy so he will carry as much momentum through the corner as he can rather than concentrate on deplyment on exit as there is no bhp benefit. All this considered, the quickest will still be the smoothest way of achieving this. This is a completely different technique to driving a modern 911GT car which has a longer wheelbase, propper diff control, a lot more power and much better brakes - its also a lot heavier. To get the best out of a GT3 the driver needs utilise these differences to find the fastest way to the apex whilst still having tha ability to deploy full throtlle immediately the car is rotated. To do that he will need to balance rotational grip of the tyre at threashold whilst rotating the car and balancing lateral grip loads at the same time. All this when the weight balance of the car is at the oposite end of the car to it's weight bias so one tiny mistake will result an oversteer accident prior to apex. As you say, from apex, if he's got everything else right, deploying power is relatively easy but to get there he has ovecome rotational grip, lateral grip and extreme weight transfer all at threashold and at the same time. A good driver will do this at 100% through each phase of the corner and his telementry will show the car over rotating all the way to apex without any steering correction. If he gets it right, there be few if any corrections needed because if he's going to win, he needs to keep his tyres in perfect shape.
By comparison, the GT4 driver only has to manage lateral grip as he nears the apex. The trip into the apex will (should)be uneventful. All he will need to do is manage the rotational grip of the tyre at threashold braking. A good driver will tune himself into the slow and high speed lateral capabilities of the chassis in a few laps so it will just be a case of picking his braking point and - as you say - the rest should unravel although it will change depending on the bhp at his disposal.
I have pretty decent racing experience in both mid and rear engined cars. In the same car against a decent club level driver I would think I may have 1 or 1.5 seconds on an average lap. Put me in a 911 and i'm confident that I could find around half a second a corner.
Indulge me on this anecdote. Brands hatch GP in the GT cup. We entered a bog standard 997 Cup against a grip full of more powerful cars which included several 430 challenge cars, some which had aero and damping upgrades. We ran Michellins in Carrera cup but the control tyre in the GT Cup then was a Dunlop which wouldnt take the 4.5 deg of neg camber which we run on the Miches. So we wound the camber back to -2.5 and I adjusted my driving style as I figured that my braking footpint would improve but my entry footprint would deteriorate. I braked later, took more brake on initial trail and got on the throttle before the car had finished rotating. I took pole after 10 minutes of quali and sat in the car on its airjacks until the end of the session waiting to see if I needed to go out again.
I make this point because I think that you need to dig a lot deeper into what skill sets are needed to become a fast driver and what is required to extract an optimum lap from cars of different layouts or different set ups. A GT3 is a much more difficult car to drive at its full potential than a GT4. Both require neat and precise style but the 911 presents many more challenges from the top end of a driver's skill set. As a guide, if you are off of the throttle or brake anywhere in the cornering phase of a modern GT3 or not on full throttle immediately the car is rotated, you are losing time somewhere. In other words, you are working some or several control elements of the car at threashold all the way through the corner. You dont need to do that in a GT4
That is a cool post. By comparison, the GT4 driver only has to manage lateral grip as he nears the apex. The trip into the apex will (should)be uneventful. All he will need to do is manage the rotational grip of the tyre at threashold braking. A good driver will tune himself into the slow and high speed lateral capabilities of the chassis in a few laps so it will just be a case of picking his braking point and - as you say - the rest should unravel although it will change depending on the bhp at his disposal.
I have pretty decent racing experience in both mid and rear engined cars. In the same car against a decent club level driver I would think I may have 1 or 1.5 seconds on an average lap. Put me in a 911 and i'm confident that I could find around half a second a corner.
Indulge me on this anecdote. Brands hatch GP in the GT cup. We entered a bog standard 997 Cup against a grip full of more powerful cars which included several 430 challenge cars, some which had aero and damping upgrades. We ran Michellins in Carrera cup but the control tyre in the GT Cup then was a Dunlop which wouldnt take the 4.5 deg of neg camber which we run on the Miches. So we wound the camber back to -2.5 and I adjusted my driving style as I figured that my braking footpint would improve but my entry footprint would deteriorate. I braked later, took more brake on initial trail and got on the throttle before the car had finished rotating. I took pole after 10 minutes of quali and sat in the car on its airjacks until the end of the session waiting to see if I needed to go out again.
I make this point because I think that you need to dig a lot deeper into what skill sets are needed to become a fast driver and what is required to extract an optimum lap from cars of different layouts or different set ups. A GT3 is a much more difficult car to drive at its full potential than a GT4. Both require neat and precise style but the 911 presents many more challenges from the top end of a driver's skill set. As a guide, if you are off of the throttle or brake anywhere in the cornering phase of a modern GT3 or not on full throttle immediately the car is rotated, you are losing time somewhere. In other words, you are working some or several control elements of the car at threashold all the way through the corner. You dont need to do that in a GT4
If you know, you know
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