Paul Stephens Le Mans Classic Clubsport

[BubblesNW]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

What about a Singer Bora or Urraco or Stratos or even an Integrale for that matter. It’s not only Porsche with the pedigree and back catalogue.

[aeropilot]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

A Singer isn't 'worth' ten times as much as a standard 964....it 'costs' 10 x as much.

Cost and worth are not the same thing.

[ttdan]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Im not debating the premium they achieve, thats their customers opinion on the added “value” which is fair enough. The point im trying make (obviously quite poorly...) is that if there is brand equity in the car by far the majority of it belongs to Porsche not Singer. As Singer would not sell any (far less) if the cars weren’t Porsches in the first place. And we all know Singer would never do a Fiesta because....err its not a Porsche and no one would buy one. Or if they did they couldn’t build it for £15k and make a living.

So, it only works because its a Porsche, no Porsche no Singer.

[ttdan]

Yep and there’s Alfaholics and and and many more to come im sure. Actually im not so sure as Porsche cars have a “hot rod” sub culture other brands may not bear.

IMHO Singer are adding cost, value in the medium term, but not equity. 10 years from now who’ll want the dicked about with 964 over the factory’s original spec..911’s have a shelf life Singer can only dream of.

You can gild the lily but the lily is stil a lily.

[Robbo66]

ttdan said:

Yep and there’s Alfaholics and and and many more to come im sure. Actually im not so sure as Porsche cars have a “hot rod” sub culture other brands may not bear.

IMHO Singer are adding cost, value in the medium term, but not equity. 10 years from now who’ll want the dicked about with 964 over the factory’s original spec..911’s have a shelf life Singer can only dream of.

You can gild the lily but the lily is stil a lily.

And that’s the issue. Those who want a Singer generally want ‘their’ spec.
Not some others, so the market to resale is practically non existent. There was one I know, withdrawn from sale recently for exactly this reason.
They’re realistically a £250k car, landed here in the U.K. ....then you ‘may’ have a ticket out should you want to.

[aeropilot]

Robbo66 said:

ttdan said:

Yep and there’s Alfaholics and and and many more to come im sure. Actually im not so sure as Porsche cars have a “hot rod” sub culture other brands may not bear.

IMHO Singer are adding cost, value in the medium term, but not equity. 10 years from now who’ll want the dicked about with 964 over the factory’s original spec..911’s have a shelf life Singer can only dream of.

You can gild the lily but the lily is stil a lily.

And that’s the issue. Those who want a Singer generally want ‘their’ spec.
Not some others, so the market to resale is practically non existent. There was one I know, withdrawn from sale recently for exactly this reason.

Exactly, that's why I used the term 'hot rod' Porsche, as that's exactly the service Singer are providing. Building a bespoke, custom old school 911 for people that can afford it, just as someone who's car 'desire' and deep pockets can afford to take an old vintage 30's/40's Ford etc to Roy Brizio or Troy Trepanier to turn it into their vision of a hot rod/street rod etc. It's just the top end of the scale of what Americans have been doing since the end of WW2....

[IMI A]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I'm not sure I follow Jez. The Singer 964 commands the money it does because the level of workmanship is exquisite and second to non including Buggati or Pagani. The Singer is a very special 964. Its not a standard 964 so not comparable.

There are lots of special 964 variants straight out the factory which command similar if not more money. 964 turbo s lightweight, 964 3.8 RSR the list goes on and on.

The latest Singer being penned with 500 bhp Williams/Mezger will be £1m + and worth every penny

Ruf 964s command similar money if not more for some of their carbon fibre shelled restomods. Again Ruf 964s and 993s are very special. Without Porsche there would be no Ruf.

[IMI A]

Steve Rance said:

I can’t help thinking that a 964 is probably nicer as a 964.

Agreed. I'd love to pop over and see your 964 C2 one day. Planning on something similar but maybe with a 993.

[Cheib]

I think the main difference between a Singer and a car like this Paul Stephens car is the Singer has a lot of bespoke parts that you can't go to Singer (or anyone else) and ask them to put on your car....i.e. they're not going to sell you a set of carbon wings. I think/suspect with the PS car there's nothing on this car that is either unique or can't be bought off the shelf from either PS or another supplier. That in itself creates a bit of brand value and exclusivity. To me it looks like the exclusive thing about these PS Le Mans Classic is the paint job, interior and the fact it's 1 of 10 cars that look like that.

Eagle do something similar with their E-Type's....different business model but as I understand it they'll only refurbish/renovate cars that have been bought from them. So you either buy a full on Eagle E-Type or buy an original car from them and ask them to upgrade it as you want.

[STiG911]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Singers absolutely cost and are worth 10x a 964. They're not charging 10x just because they can get away with it.
As others note elsewhere in this thread, the amount of work and bespoke craft that goes into each Singer is where the cost comes from - each is built to a specific spec for one customer, not churned out carbon copy style like Model T's. Watch the Chris Harris video on Singer which shows the dedication and detail lengths they go to (not to mention the amount of development work they did before even starting their first full car - not many others doing that) then maybe you'll actually realise that ARE worth the money.

[Steve Rance]

IMI A said:

Agreed. I'd love to pop over and see your 964 C2 one day. Planning on something similar but maybe with a 993.

You would be welcome. Are you based near Suffolk?

[IMI A]

Steve Rance said:

IMI A said:

Agreed. I'd love to pop over and see your 964 C2 one day. Planning on something similar but maybe with a 993.

You would be welcome. Are you based near Suffolk?

I'm based in Dubai but have been known to frequent East Anglia from time to time. I'm based just North of London when in UK but Suffolk not an issue. Actually have to pop down to Suffolk to say hello to my old boss. Just bought something very similar to your car 5 mins ago. Couldn't wait any longer !!!!
Would still love to pop down and see your lovely 964. Looks hard as nails that little car does.

[STiG911]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

If you're not intimate with all aspects of the car and costs, how can you be confident they don't cost 10x ?
You say you've seen the video - did you skim over the part where the wiring loom alone is quoted as $30k's worth of work? Also, think about how much is required to rework the air-cooled engines to get the power outputs they achieve. That, and a myriad of other details and unique-to-client customisations are why the cars cost as much as they do - NOT because Singer feels like charging that much.

[fergus]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Have you seen any of the Alfaholics GTA-Rs? Not sure how they compare to Singers?

[IMI A]

STiG911 said:

Also, think about how much is required to rework the air-cooled engines to get the power outputs they achieve.

Off topic I take the Singer power claims with a pinch of salt. Very difficult to get more than 330bhp from a normally aspirated air cooled engine and keep it drivable. It can be done and 3.8, 4.0 and 4.2 air-cooled rock above 3000 rpm but below this the air cooled high power normally aspirated cars tend have flat spots etc. Not driven a Singer but I'd love to see one on a UK dyno like Litchfield has. Also are they as light as they say they are? 1250kgs wet? Has anyone actually weighed them as those wheels look like the weigh a tonne on their own

[fergus]

IMI A said:

STiG911 said:

Also, think about how much is required to rework the air-cooled engines to get the power outputs they achieve.

Off topic I take the Singer power claims with a pinch of salt. Very difficult to get more than 330bhp from a normally aspirated air cooled engine and keep it drivable. It can be done and 3.8, 4.0 and 4.2 air-cooled rock above 3000 rpm but below this the air cooled high power normally aspirated cars tend have flat spots etc. Not driven a Singer but I'd love to see one on a UK dyno like Litchfield has. Also are they as light as they say they are? 1250kgs wet? Has anyone actually weighed them as those wheels look like the weigh a tonne on their own

Although 15 years ago Colin et al at ninemeister were getting c. 340hp from 3.6l C2 lumps IIRC? With more modern cam designs and advances in ECU granularity, etc. I suppose 350hp should be attainable? I don't think they actually did much mechanically to achieve the 340 figure, i.e. heads potentially stayed on the barrels?

[Maxige]

fergus said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Have you seen any of the Alfaholics GTA-Rs? Not sure how they compare to Singers?

They don't...Singer is on a class of its own to be honest, probably only Eagle is on the same level.

Alfaholics is more comparable with the PS car...even tho I'd go Alfaholics any day of the week vs this Le Mans Classic thing!

[Yellow491]

fergus said:

IMI A said:

STiG911 said:

Also, think about how much is required to rework the air-cooled engines to get the power outputs they achieve.

Off topic I take the Singer power claims with a pinch of salt. Very difficult to get more than 330bhp from a normally aspirated air cooled engine and keep it drivable. It can be done and 3.8, 4.0 and 4.2 air-cooled rock above 3000 rpm but below this the air cooled high power normally aspirated cars tend have flat spots etc. Not driven a Singer but I'd love to see one on a UK dyno like Litchfield has. Also are they as light as they say they are? 1250kgs wet? Has anyone actually weighed them as those wheels look like the weigh a tonne on their own

Although 15 years ago Colin et al at ninemeister were getting c. 340hp from 3.6l C2 lumps IIRC? With more modern cam designs and advances in ECU granularity, etc. I suppose 350hp should be attainable? I don't think they actually did much mechanically to achieve the 340 figure, i.e. heads potentially stayed on the barrels?

Its not difficult at all,and very driveable, if you have flat spots its because of poor mapping and or wrong cams.

[IMI A]

Yellow491 said:

fergus said:

IMI A said:

STiG911 said:

Also, think about how much is required to rework the air-cooled engines to get the power outputs they achieve.

Off topic I take the Singer power claims with a pinch of salt. Very difficult to get more than 330bhp from a normally aspirated air cooled engine and keep it drivable. It can be done and 3.8, 4.0 and 4.2 air-cooled rock above 3000 rpm but below this the air cooled high power normally aspirated cars tend have flat spots etc. Not driven a Singer but I'd love to see one on a UK dyno like Litchfield has. Also are they as light as they say they are? 1250kgs wet? Has anyone actually weighed them as those wheels look like the weigh a tonne on their own

Although 15 years ago Colin et al at ninemeister were getting c. 340hp from 3.6l C2 lumps IIRC? With more modern cam designs and advances in ECU granularity, etc. I suppose 350hp should be attainable? I don't think they actually did much mechanically to achieve the 340 figure, i.e. heads potentially stayed on the barrels?

Its not difficult at all,and very driveable, if you have flat spots its because of poor mapping and or wrong cams.

I know Ed Pink does a 3.8 350bhp and 4.0 390bhp for Singer but I don't see many in Europe doing it with success or at least advertising that they're successfully running at these power levels. I think their new engine with Williams is 500bhp! Not easy from an air cooled or everyone would be doing it?

From Singer

3.8-liter, 350 horsepower, with Individual Throttle-bodies

[* intended for off-road useonly in certain territories]

Our 350BHP 3.8L normally aspirated, Porsche flat-six engine was developed in partnership with race-engine manufacturer Cosworth. It is hand-built in California by Ed Pink Racing Engines to exact tolerances, and benefits from state-of-the-art breakthroughs in intake design, cylinder head, piston, cylinder and rod design, plus fuel injection and engine management advances. We feel it to be a wonderful compromise between a high-revving, high horsepower Porsche racing engine and a torque rich, tractabledurable engine for the road. An optional nickel plated Air intake plenum is available for the 3.8L.

4.0-liter, 390 horsepower

[* intended for off-road use only in certain territories]

Our 390BHP 4.0-liter engine grew from the DNA of our 3.8L Cosworth engine and has been meticulously developed by the engineers at Ed Pink Racing Engines to create our ultimate incarnation of the normally aspirated flat-six. With a 7,200 RPM redline this engine is a monster in the best sense of the word and imbued with heroic levels of torque – around 315lb/ft, and thrilling peak power output tantalizing close to 400hp. As with all our engines it retains the case of the 964 and employs a bespoke crankshaft, oil pump, pistons, cylinders, connecting rods, cams, cylinder heads, throttle bodies and intake system. Performance is extreme with 60mph and 100mph arriving in sub 3.3 seconds and 8.2 seconds respectively.

[ttdan]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The “cost” delta is all Singer. And what they do to the car totally explains why the Singer “costs” 500k. We can all add up. If the Porsche badge was not on the bonnet, they didn’t use the iconic body shape, the dash pods and the engine type and layout they could ask but would be unlikely to get their 500k asking price.

So as cost is objective and value isn’t my point is that realtive value of the Singer only exists because of Porsche. The fundamental DNA of the thing is Porsche’s IP in the first place. So, the value of a Singer is all down to the fact its a 911 to begin with.