Porsche 993/964 historic prices

[n12maser]

v8ksn said:

I've heard conflicting reports, some say you can't tell the difference between C2 and C4 and others that say the C4 loses the 'front end bob' that is the main characteristic of an air cooled 911.

that's because there's a much bigger difference between a 964 C2 and 964 C4 than between a 993 carrera and 993 carrera 4. the technology is different: https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/96063-964-aw...

[Wozy68]

Slippydiff said:

v8ksn said:

Thank you for your open and honest post.

I love my GT3 and I have had some truly amazing and memorable drives in it. The sound it makes at full chat and the speed it can carry into corners is fantastic but I am beginning to feel that it's not how fast you can go, but how you go fast.

Recently I started a thread called Big Numbers and these big numbers the car can achieve worry me. There is still fun to be had driving the car at less than 10/10ths but the very nature of the car goads you into hooligan behaviour. The car wants you to behave badly, it wants you to drive at truly antisocial speeds and the rewards when you give in are plentiful. Nailing a downshift from 4th to 3rd before you pour the car into a long sweeping corner and then feed in the power again and change into 4th and 5th at full revs is life affirming stuff.

If I am honest with myself, each time I drive the GT3 it's like a roller-coaster ride. By that I mean it's a thrill that is defined and contained within certain parameters. The car can handle anything I throw at it. I am looking for a different challenge now, a different experience and I think going back to an air cooled 911 will give me a different challenge at lower speeds. I may be wrong but life is all about experiences right?

I have to remind myself that my car is 11 years old and since then the GT3 has got faster and faster, lord knows how fast the new ones go! How the owners can have fun on the road without scaring themselves silly at the speeds attained I don't know.

If I can build a 993 to be engaging, fun to drive, exploitable and have great steering all at lower speeds then I will have succeeded.

Would still love a 911R though

I reached the same conclusion you’ve come to with regards to the speed the 997 GT3 is capable of in the road very quickly.
A trip in my first car across the Cotswolds on New Year’s Day 2008 left me hugely impressed, but also somewhat concerned. I sold the car.
I revisited the Gen 1 997 GT3 4 years later.
A trip from Worcestershire over to Top555 at Rutland to view a 1M Coupe one quiet Saturday afternoon on some epic roads, saw the realisation dawn that the speeds I was regularly attaining weren’t socially acceptable (or if I’m totally honest, fun) I once again sold the car.

Fast forward to last Spring, and I thought I’d try ownership of the much heralded Cayman R.
The CR is an amazing little car, and along twisty A/B roads its finely balanced chassis gives little or nothing to a Gen 1 997 GT3 (I speak from experience) sure the extra 70-80hp from the wonderful Mezger engine allows it to pull ahead along a decent length straight, but around the twisties, it would take a talented 997 GT3 pilot to outpace a well driven Cayman.

But for all it’s abilities, there was a downside to CR ownership, the car was too balanced, too polished and ultimately too “easy”, both to drive and extract speed from.
With the Cayman’s brakes refreshed and the geo set up properly, I found myself driving it at speeds very similar to those I’d experienced in the 997 GT3 some years previously.
But it was only at those speeds that the chassis came alive and the car felt really fun to drive.
That’s fine if ultimate speed from A to B is your metric AND you’re happy driving around at close to twice the speed limit for our A roads. Neither are what floats my boat.

I think the 964 being slightly more agricultural (and a lot of that is down to the cruder rear suspension) than the 993, and that gives the impression of speed better than the later car, ie you’ll feel you’re going faster than you are, at lower speeds.

I wouldn’t have any reservations about going from a 997 GT3 to a C2 964/993, as long as you embrace the aircooled car’s foibles/eccentricities, you’ll fall for and be smitten by their charms.

It is weird sometimes that more is less. Years ago I was in Porsche GT magazine comparing my then owned 968CS against the then new Cayman R. TBH they couldn’t have compared an old and new Porsche on worse roads and I well remember my CS crashing around whilst the CR took it all in its stride.

However I quickly realised that the CR was just a little to good. It was a fabulous car but lacked the enjoyment (in my opinion) and character of the older cars. In those days I used to drive a lot in the Pyrenees....... I’d have been far quicker in the Cayman, but would I have had more fun, I’m not so sure I would have.

I read earlier earlier in this thread (if I’ve read correctly) of a PHer who sold his C4 993 and enjoyed a 996 turbo better. I’m surprised by this as a 996 turbo is such an accomplished car that when I tested one I thought it unbelievably quick, but at the end of the day at sane speeds <100mph just a bit boring. You know your doing a ton in a 993 and imo definitely in a 964.

Slippy ...... I’d assume we can’t live a million miles away from each other reading the above .

[ras62]

Much of the fun in the older cars is down to using sensible tyre sizes. It's no wonder a GT4 has a surplus of grip when it runs 245/295 front/rear tyres. McLaren's 570 is a good example of less is more as it uses a 225/285 combination in order to offer more driver engagement than is offered in its super series models.

[BertBert]

All this talk of the 997GT3 being too fast is most distressing as I'm moving from air cooled to GT3! I know the 996 GT3 works for me and I was hoping the 997 might.

If all else fails I'll still have my lovely lively slow old 69T to fall back on!

Bert

[v8ksn]

BertBert said:

All this talk of the 997GT3 being too fast is most distressing as I'm moving from air cooled to GT3! I know the 996 GT3 works for me and I was hoping the 997 might.

If all else fails I'll still have my lovely lively slow old 69T to fall back on!

Bert

I wouldn't worry if I were you Bert, the 997 GT3 is a spectacular machine. A truly engaging car that in my opinion is at the peak point when analogue was king before the slow intrusion of electronics, paddle shift gearboxes and electric steering took over.

[Kettmark]

No joy selling yours as yet? I'm waiting on selling my 997 c2s before I can move on.

[Slippydiff]

ras62 said:

Much of the fun in the older cars is down to using sensible tyre sizes. It's no wonder a GT4 has a surplus of grip when it runs 245/295 front/rear tyres. McLaren's 570 is a good example of less is more as it uses a 225/285 combination in order to offer more driver engagement than is offered in its super series models.

Indeed, it appears that having been stung by criticism that the 12C and the 650S were just too good, McLaren engineered some grip out and some playfulness back in to the chassis of the 570S/GT. Pretty much every review raves about them (from that perspective), a tough call choosing between a Gen 991 GT3 or the 570S, and I think I know where my money would go ....

A 964 on 17's with 205 front and 255 rears is pretty much purrrrfect.... (I was genuinely shocked just how much grip a lightly laden 205 section front tyre can generate on the road the first time I drove the RS in anger)

Lamborghini appear to have almost reached a zenith with the Performante :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrejZp1JECs

[Slippydiff]

Wozy68 said:

It is weird sometimes that more is less. Years ago I was in Porsche GT magazine comparing my then owned 968CS against the then new Cayman R. TBH they couldn’t have compared an old and new Porsche on worse roads and I well remember my CS crashing around whilst the CR took it all in its stride.

However I quickly realised that the CR was just a little to good. It was a fabulous car but lacked the enjoyment (in my opinion) and character of the older cars. In those days I used to drive a lot in the Pyrenees....... I’d have been far quicker in the Cayman, but would I have had more fun, I’m not so sure I would have.

I read earlier earlier in this thread (if I’ve read correctly) of a PHer who sold his C4 993 and enjoyed a 996 turbo better. I’m surprised by this as a 996 turbo is such an accomplished car that when I tested one I thought it unbelievably quick, but at the end of the day at sane speeds <100mph just a bit boring. You know your doing a ton in a 993 and imo definitely in a 964.

Slippy ...... I’d assume we can’t live a million miles away from each other reading the above .

Nail hit firmly on the head

The comments about the 996 Turbo owner preferring it to his 993 C4 are "interesting", the 996 is incredibly accomplished, and if you've a cross country dash to undertake on give and take roads in the wet/damp at night, the 996 Turbo would get you there quickly and safely with little or nothing in the way of drama, but at the expense of engagement and tactility, it's a blunt, albeit very efficient tool. The 993 however is chock full of character in comparison.
Every journey in a 993 is an event, and would always be, whilst I suspect the novelty of the Turbo may wear thin after the initial attraction of it's outright speed, or failing that, you'd find yourself on the slippery slope of remap, exhaust, bigger brakes, better suspension, bigger intercoolers, bigger turbos, another remap etc etc.

I lived just outside Droitwich and then just outside Bromsgrove up until May of this year. I'm guessing you were Worcester/Malvern neck of the woods ?

[Slippydiff]

v8ksn said:

I wouldn't worry if I were you Bert, the 997 GT3 is a spectacular machine. A truly engaging car that in my opinion is at the peak point when analogue was king before the slow intrusion of electronics, paddle shift gearboxes and electric steering took over.

Yes and no
All joking aside, I think the 996 was the high point for tactility and engagement in the watercooled era, granted it may not the prettiest (but on the basis the naughtiest ladies often aren't the best looking, that's not a bad thing !!) and has an interior that polarises opinion (yes, it's poor quality, but it has something of the aircooled cars about it still, and it feels far more intimate than the 997 cabin) no PASM, considerably narrower tyres (on the rear anyway) and it feels more of a road going car that will do track day duty, as opposed to the 997 which to me always felt like a track-biased car that could do road duty.

The Gen 1 997 GT3 engine was a mechanical tour de force however. I struggled to believe that 415hp from 3.6L could feel so barrel chested AND rev so willingly, and that the engine was intrinsically the same as the 360hp unit found in the Mk1 996 GT3.

[ooid]

Wilmslowboy said:

I bought a 993 4S for £17k - it had 2 owners, FSH and was a good colour combo, Manual, coupe (hardback seats, hollow spokes etc) never been painted. 150k miles

This was around 2009 to 2011....

To be honest, anything in U.K. (super, classic cars or property) was very low price between 2008-2010 (end of). Not saying, that really reflects the value of these cars but probably a good sign of showing how much these (unique) toys might actually worth when the sh-i-t really hits the fan just like back in 2008 post Lehman-Bro apocalyptic events.

PS: My colleague got his nippy 993 c2 in early 2013, around 28k.. Still has it, but not a daily car.

[v8ksn]

Slippydiff said:

... 996 may not the prettiest (but on the basis the naughtiest ladies often aren't the best looking, that's not a bad thing !!)
....

This is so true. The 996 GT3 is the kind of car you will take out occasionally for a good thrashing down a quiet country lane but you wouldn't want your mates to catch you nailing it

[Wozy68]

Slippydiff said:

Nail hit firmly on the head

I lived just outside Droitwich and then just outside Bromsgrove up until May of this year. I'm guessing you were Worcester/Malvern neck of the woods ?

I’m in east Worcestershire ...., Evesham, (Where for such a small town three 993s recide), so just a stones throw from the Cotswolds ....... Where the strange folk live

Edited by Wozy68 on Saturday 25th August 08:22

[g7jhp]

Slippydiff said:

Wozy68 said:

It is weird sometimes that more is less. Years ago I was in Porsche GT magazine comparing my then owned 968CS against the then new Cayman R. TBH they couldn’t have compared an old and new Porsche on worse roads and I well remember my CS crashing around whilst the CR took it all in its stride.

However I quickly realised that the CR was just a little to good. It was a fabulous car but lacked the enjoyment (in my opinion) and character of the older cars. In those days I used to drive a lot in the Pyrenees....... I’d have been far quicker in the Cayman, but would I have had more fun, I’m not so sure I would have.

I read earlier earlier in this thread (if I’ve read correctly) of a PHer who sold his C4 993 and enjoyed a 996 turbo better. I’m surprised by this as a 996 turbo is such an accomplished car that when I tested one I thought it unbelievably quick, but at the end of the day at sane speeds <100mph just a bit boring. You know your doing a ton in a 993 and imo definitely in a 964.

Slippy ...... I’d assume we can’t live a million miles away from each other reading the above .

Nail hit firmly on the head

The comments about the 996 Turbo owner preferring it to his 993 C4 are "interesting", the 996 is incredibly accomplished, and if you've a cross country dash to undertake on give and take roads in the wet/damp at night, the 996 Turbo would get you there quickly and safely with little or nothing in the way of drama, but at the expense of engagement and tactility, it's a blunt, albeit very efficient tool. The 993 however is chock full of character in comparison.
Every journey in a 993 is an event, and would always be, whilst I suspect the novelty of the Turbo may wear thin after the initial attraction of it's outright speed, or failing that, you'd find yourself on the slippery slope of remap, exhaust, bigger brakes, better suspension, bigger intercoolers, bigger turbos, another remap etc etc.

I lived just outside Droitwich and then just outside Bromsgrove up until May of this year. I'm guessing you were Worcester/Malvern neck of the woods ?

Guys just to clarify my comments:

"Since then 
my 996 turbo has certainly delivered far more on the performance, handling and overall experience than the 993 C4."

My 3.2 Carrera's in my mind were far cooler and capture the essence of a classic 911.

The 993 C4 wasn't as fast or handle as well as expected. I did also have a Caterham around this time which make most cars feel like a barge.

The 996 turbo deliverers on the performance front and handling front (in all weathers). Saying the 996 turbo is a blunt tool is harsh as it's sharper than 99% of cars on the roads. It is more comfortable and more complete road car (all IMO).

If I wanted a pure weekend car it would be a Caterham or an earler but more focused 911.

Edited by g7jhp on Saturday 25th August 09:06

[Wilmslowboy]

The popularity of beards has shot up between 2011 and 2016...at the same time as the rise in values in air-cooled Porsches ......any correlation.

[Slippydiff]

g7jhp said:

Guys just to clarify my comments:

"Since then 
my 996 turbo has certainly delivered far more on the performance, handling and overall experience than the 993 C4."

My 3.2 Carrera's in my mind were far cooler and capture the essence of a classic 911.

The 993 C4 wasn't as fast or handle as well as expected. I did also have a Caterham around this time which make most cars feel like a barge.

The 996 turbo deliverers on the performance front and handling front (in all weathers). Saying the 996 turbo is a blunt tool is harsh as it's sharper than 99% of cars on the roads.It is more comfortable and more complete road car (all IMO).

If I wanted a pure weekend car it would be a Caterham or an earler but more focused 911.

In the context of "most" other road cars, a 996 Turbo is indeed focused, but when compared with the likes of a 996 GT2, 996 GT3, 964 RS etc etc, rest assured, it's a pretty blunt tool

From my experience, a stock (even in very rude health engine and chassis wise) 993 C4 isn't the most engaging drive, so it's little wonder you weren't that smitten, but if you owned a Caterham at the same time, I imagine the 993 would have felt slower than stunned slug and handled like supertanker in comparison ?

[g7jhp]

Slippydiff said:

In the context of "most" other road cars, a 996 Turbo is indeed focused, but when compared with the likes of a 996 GT2, 996 GT3, 964 RS etc etc, rest assured, it's a pretty blunt tool

From my experience, a stock (even in very rude health engine and chassis wise) 993 C4 isn't the most engaging drive, so it's little wonder you weren't that smitten, but if you owned a Caterham at the same time, I imagine the 993 would have felt slower than stunned slug and handled like supertanker in comparison ?

I'll take your word on the 996 GT2/ GT3 and 964 RS front.

Yes a Caterham (even a 2.0 VX HPC on Carbs) makes most cars feel sluggish.

[acme]

My ten penneth; I bought a manual narrow bodied C2 993 with 85k in 2008 for 24.5k. I’d say it was possibly a slightly high price for a private sale, but it was owned by a well known 911UK’er, had come from one of the three best known Indies & was in very good condition.

Having spent two years looking for one, & having been stiffed on various occasions by unscrupulous owners I was very familiar with the cars & prices!

Low milers were high 20’s, often 28-30 for narrows. Wides were always 10k more. However there was one particular dark blue 130k miler wide body that appeared two or three times for below 30k. It had had so much done I recall triggers broom being mentioned.

For my part despite still owning & therefore on paper seemingly making a good profit I like many have spent a lot of money, & that’s despite doing many of the bigger jobs myself.

Personally I think it’s a real shame they’ve gone up so much, for many enthusiasts they’re now out of reach, those sat in garages won’t have the necessary preventative maintenance & those of us who love them rarely get to see them. A real shame.

Edited by acme on Sunday 26th August 22:24

[donutskidmark]

I bought this polar 993 C2 varioram manual coupe about 7 years ago.
Since then I’ve also had a 964, a 911SC, and a 991.1GTS -they’ve all
gone but the 993 remains in the garage.
I must admit I found the 993 steering slightly numb initially -the car felt more of a
grand tourer rather than a proper sports car.
I took it to Centre Gravity and asked them to make it more ‘go cart’ sporty in feel
and they succeeded- it now feels sublime and fun to drive at even low speeds.
The 991 GTS was so accomplished that until you hit 100mph it felt somewhat mundane...
I still love the look of the 993- even after 7 years I always glance back when I park her up somewhere...

[IMI A]

donutskidmark said:

I bought this polar 993 C2 varioram manual coupe about 7 years ago.
Since then I’ve also had a 964, a 911SC, and a 991.1GTS -they’ve all
gone but the 993 remains in the garage.
I must admit I found the 993 steering slightly numb initially -the car felt more of a
grand tourer rather than a proper sports car.
I took it to Centre Gravity and asked them to make it more ‘go cart’ sporty in feel
and they succeeded- it now feels sublime and fun to drive at even low speeds.
The 991 GTS was so accomplished that until you hit 100mph it felt somewhat mundane...
I still love the look of the 993- even after 7 years I always glance back when I park her up somewhere...

What a pretty car and beautiful pic

[acme]

donutskidmark said:

I bought this polar 993 C2 varioram manual coupe about 7 years ago.
Since then I’ve also had a 964, a 911SC, and a 991.1GTS -they’ve all
gone but the 993 remains in the garage.
I must admit I found the 993 steering slightly numb initially -the car felt more of a
grand tourer rather than a proper sports car.
I took it to Centre Gravity and asked them to make it more ‘go cart’ sporty in feel
and they succeeded- it now feels sublime and fun to drive at even low speeds.
The 991 GTS was so accomplished that until you hit 100mph it felt somewhat mundane...
I still love the look of the 993- even after 7 years I always glance back when I park her up somewhere...

We have identical cars, mine’s polar too on 17 inch cup two’s, still on ambers, though not coloured centres. Blue interior with hardbacks & AC.

I too rarely walk away from her without a glance back!