Cars not selling?
Discussion
Dammit said:
browngt3 said:
Don't disagree at all with what you say. However, it remains a pretty bleak picture of the future. One where people's freedom of choice and movement are restricted. The great post war motoring revolution in Western democracies giving freedom of movement to the masses looks set to be rolled back. It's become a victim of its own success.
There has to be a balance - in this case your freedom to drive what you want versus the public health and environmental impact.Your point about freedom of movement is only true if "the masses" are all driving elderly air-cooled 911's or similar vehicles - which they are not.
Drive a Nissan Leaf? Then go where you will. Drive an old 911? Then (due to the negative impact on others local to where you drive the vehicle) you may not be able too.
Why the change over time? We now know better what the impacts of these things are.
We have to take personal responsibility for our actions, considering what we drive, where, is part of that.
Eta, this is also in response to Cmooses question, 'how is freedom of movement being restricted?'
Edited by browngt3 on Tuesday 11th September 12:57
Freedom of movement is absolutely not being restricted - you can go where you please.
Trying to claim driving a 40 year old car as a human right is very silly and will undermine any serious point that you are trying to make.
Freedom of Movement in the EU means you are free to move within the EU - they won't pay for your tickets.
Trying to claim that we don't, in fact, have FoM to, say, Spain because you have to get your Visa card out and pay money to BA is plainly untrue.
Trying to claim driving a 40 year old car as a human right is very silly and will undermine any serious point that you are trying to make.
Freedom of Movement in the EU means you are free to move within the EU - they won't pay for your tickets.
Trying to claim that we don't, in fact, have FoM to, say, Spain because you have to get your Visa card out and pay money to BA is plainly untrue.
Dammit said:
...
If combustion engines are banned in cities then the positives (10,000 deaths per year in London avoided) outweigh the negatives.
Where would we house these extra 10,000 people every year?If combustion engines are banned in cities then the positives (10,000 deaths per year in London avoided) outweigh the negatives.
I guess we have to accept that we won't be able to drive our cars in cities any more, which really is crap anyway, but of course if you live in a city how do you get your car in/out to drive it outside of the city.
Dammit said:
browngt3 said:
Freedom of movement is being increasingly restricted.
^Totally untrue.The freedom to drive specific types of vehicle is being very gradually made somewhat more expensive.
^This is true.
Spot the difference?
Well you clearly trust government motives more than I do. They are clearly very capable of dressing up a certain goal and calling it something else. To me anyway. I'm sure some intentions are a genuine motivation for a cleaner environment. However, there are some who possess more sinister motives. Don't know about your local authority but there are some influential voices in ours that hate all cars. Doesn't matter if its a 993, electric or autonomous. If its a car it's bad and should be removed. The problem for us is when these people actually start making real policy.
browngt3 said:
Well you clearly trust government motives more than I do. They are clearly very capable of dressing up a certain goal and calling it something else. To me anyway. I'm sure some intentions are a genuine motivation for a cleaner environment. However, there are some who possess more sinister motives. Don't know about your local authority but there are some influential voices in ours that hate all cars. Doesn't matter if its a 993, electric or autonomous. If its a car it's bad and should be removed. The problem for us is when these people actually start making real policy.
As cities are becoming more densely populated I can sympathise with wanting to restrict and rid them of cars.Roads for cars are space-hungry, expensive, high-maintenance items that we could do without. That's before you start talking about how many people are killed by them.
OK, I let the tin foil hat accusation pass the first time but sorry, not the second time. Conspiracy theory accusations have become a bit of a cheap shot when arguing a point I'm afraid. Bit like its new name - fake news!
Certain government departments can be highly efficient when they want to be. Take Revenue and Customs for example and try not paying your Vat.
So there's never been a conspiracy instigated by our government? Only those nasty totalitarian foreign governments! And presumably, as we live in a democracy with a free press, if there was a conspiracy we'd know about it! And to theorise, i.e perhaps think a little about said conspiracy.... Well can't do that cos then you're a crack pot tin foil hat wearing loon
Certain government departments can be highly efficient when they want to be. Take Revenue and Customs for example and try not paying your Vat.
So there's never been a conspiracy instigated by our government? Only those nasty totalitarian foreign governments! And presumably, as we live in a democracy with a free press, if there was a conspiracy we'd know about it! And to theorise, i.e perhaps think a little about said conspiracy.... Well can't do that cos then you're a crack pot tin foil hat wearing loon
browngt3 said:
Me pampered or the 993?
Always take my cars to the OPC as the service is just brilliant. I trust them to point out what needs doing and what to keep an eye on. We always have a good walk round the car when on the ramp too. They also charge me less than the independents.
I want to do a remap though as I think that might be the most cost effective route to more grunt.
Out of interest what bhp are you achieving from your 3.8 conversion?
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
Always take my cars to the OPC as the service is just brilliant. I trust them to point out what needs doing and what to keep an eye on. We always have a good walk round the car when on the ramp too. They also charge me less than the independents.
I want to do a remap though as I think that might be the most cost effective route to more grunt.
Out of interest what bhp are you achieving from your 3.8 conversion?
Did you get that output verified on the dyno? Who did the work and how much if I may ask?
You made the conspiracy theory accusation! In any case it doesn't have to be a huge international conspiracy, that is indeed a little far fetched. What it is, however, is a grand social engineering project. Doesn't need to be coordinated internationally for governments to copy each others policies. And yes I agree these things need to be managed.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
No, I can't in short explain it to you. You ask too many questions and I simply don't have the time!You appear to be persuaded by the apparent benefits of new tech. I'm not. You seem to think government is benign with its intentions. I don't. You note their incompetence in planning and therefore deduce their can't possibly be any conspiracy. I have already said I agree with many, most even, of the points you raised earlier. So I'm not sure where we're going with this. Other than I wear a tinfoil hat and drive a 993 and worry some bad people in government might want to tell me in the future not to drive it anymore
alright, let's leave it at that thenPorsche911R said:
We need a £15k Electric Ford Fiesta type car for electric to take off not £25k Leaf's !!!
10-15k brand new electric car (with a minimum 300 miles range), would be a game changer. Actually, the whole U.K. would turn into older car graveyard, so they will have to make a very good scraping scheme again to handle the older cars. It will happen though, most probably from Toyota.Edited by Porsche911R on Tuesday 11th September 12:25
The main objective for a pistonhead to buy a fun car(say porsche), to drive and enjoy it. So if you can not drive it -at least in your surroundings- why would you buy it? That was my point really, not all sports car lovers living permanently in the country or have a big garage to store them. If you are living in a city like London that has new legal and natural restrictions that stops you driving, you would unlikely put a big money. It would become a very expensive toy, especially if you are not in a bit older age that says -fuk everything, life is short!-
- I wish porsche would make a small 4 seater electric coupe like 356c, I would totally consider one but that would be VW's arena I guess.
I broadly agree with cmoose in twrms of where we're heading, but again, think he's a little pessimistic. I'm sure there'll be clampdown on older cars in city centres, but before it can get to serious restrictions (e.g. Hampshire or Switzerland or some such bans all pre-2000 cars in their entriety or whatever) i think we'll have already reached tipping point where most people are using electric (and prob) autonomous vehicles. At which point the agenda pushing a potential total ban will lose impetus. If say only 5% of the miles travelled by the population is in cars with ICEs, there'll be bigger fish to fry.
Use of diesel or petrol engines cars in many London boroughs is already under review with plans to introduce ulez in two residential boroughs imminent.
Bigger threat to performance cars will be proliferation of average speed cameras. No the technology is cheaper and installation easier I expect to see more roads covered with these, for our safety.
Bigger threat to performance cars will be proliferation of average speed cameras. No the technology is cheaper and installation easier I expect to see more roads covered with these, for our safety.
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