19th rs track day oulton park 8th march
Discussion
ginettajoe said:
..... no, if that was the case, you would still eliminate your understeer! My guess is that you are releasing the brake pressure too early, even though you feel you are on the brakes! Because of that, the front suspension is rising, so when you turn, weight is transferring over the L/H front wheel!
It is interesting that you raced 'bikes (but now you've come to your senses!), because the most settled line in a car, is identical to the line on a 'bike, where the steering wheel becomes the 'bike, where the turn in is very progressive, in just the same way you lean very progessively on a 'bike!! in exactly the same analogy, the steering input is released relative to feeding in power, just as you would on a 'bike, allowing it to straighten up relative to opening the throttle! I hope that makes sense!! Forget what people tell you about late turn in, and a car line being different to a 'bike!! I'm sure you are well aware, that not many years ago, if someone told you to trail brake on a 'bike, you would think they were crazy!! Likewise, counter steering on a 'bike is something the average person would never understand!! As i said in an earlier post, driving techniques have moved on from the '70's late turn, point and squirt!!!
Thanks for this, that does make sense. I'll try to be more fluid with my inputs next time It is interesting that you raced 'bikes (but now you've come to your senses!), because the most settled line in a car, is identical to the line on a 'bike, where the steering wheel becomes the 'bike, where the turn in is very progressive, in just the same way you lean very progessively on a 'bike!! in exactly the same analogy, the steering input is released relative to feeding in power, just as you would on a 'bike, allowing it to straighten up relative to opening the throttle! I hope that makes sense!! Forget what people tell you about late turn in, and a car line being different to a 'bike!! I'm sure you are well aware, that not many years ago, if someone told you to trail brake on a 'bike, you would think they were crazy!! Likewise, counter steering on a 'bike is something the average person would never understand!! As i said in an earlier post, driving techniques have moved on from the '70's late turn, point and squirt!!!
Digga said:
Given your experience, if you are going to make a habit of going on track, you'll get more from a 2WD car, mainly from the perspective of lower weight and more precise steering response.
boxsey said:
Ha ha, that'll explain it then. A good mate of mine used to race bikes around Oulton and jibes me about being too slow. Albeit that he was racing there before they put the chicane in to slow down Knickerbrook!
To put current car laptimes into perspective for you (IMHO): Sub 2.10 is respectable track day pace. Sub 2.00 is very fast trackday pace. Sub 1.55 is tin top race car pace (e.g. Porsche club championship). Sub 1.50 is carrera cup pace (difficult to be accurate because they only do the Island circuit now when supporting BTCC). Sub 1.40 are the top GT3 class in British GT (GT4 class are about 1.45) and the fastest are the F3 cars at something like 1.30.
Good info on the times thanks for that. Not doing do bad them! Yer i used to do 1.46'ish on the Superstock bike if i recall, I also raced there before Hizzys, Knickerbrook was a proper corner then! To put current car laptimes into perspective for you (IMHO): Sub 2.10 is respectable track day pace. Sub 2.00 is very fast trackday pace. Sub 1.55 is tin top race car pace (e.g. Porsche club championship). Sub 1.50 is carrera cup pace (difficult to be accurate because they only do the Island circuit now when supporting BTCC). Sub 1.40 are the top GT3 class in British GT (GT4 class are about 1.45) and the fastest are the F3 cars at something like 1.30.
Steve Rance said:
I thought you drove well on the day. I think that we shared track space quite often. I was in the white 997 Cup. What is the rear diff set up on the C4GTS? is it limited slip? does it work in conjunction with the front diff? Before you can establish a solution to some of your questions you need to find these answers. The diff set up on a 911 is fundamental to the most effective techniques
Thanks for your comment mate, your 997 looks great! Good question on the diff, i'm not sure. Its just a standard 991.2 C4 GTS? Maybe some more knowledgeable guys here know? I had the car in Sports mode (not sports plus) all day and didn't touch any of the ESC settings. It fact I only had the light on the dash flashing a few times during the dry day so maybe wasn't pushing hard enough!
boxsey said:
Ha ha, that'll explain it then. A good mate of mine used to race bikes around Oulton and jibes me about being too slow. Albeit that he was racing there before they put the chicane in to slow down Knickerbrook!
To put current car laptimes into perspective for you (IMHO): Sub 2.10 is respectable track day pace. Sub 2.00 is very fast trackday pace. Sub 1.55 is tin top race car pace (e.g. Porsche club championship). Sub 1.50 is carrera cup pace (difficult to be accurate because they only do the Island circuit now when supporting BTCC). Sub 1.40 are the top GT3 class in British GT (GT4 class are about 1.45) and the fastest are the F3 cars at something like 1.30.
Thanks for that. So my 1.57 in a 15 year old banger on the driest of 3 sessions wasn't too bad then To put current car laptimes into perspective for you (IMHO): Sub 2.10 is respectable track day pace. Sub 2.00 is very fast trackday pace. Sub 1.55 is tin top race car pace (e.g. Porsche club championship). Sub 1.50 is carrera cup pace (difficult to be accurate because they only do the Island circuit now when supporting BTCC). Sub 1.40 are the top GT3 class in British GT (GT4 class are about 1.45) and the fastest are the F3 cars at something like 1.30.
The last corner and corner 1 were still a bit low on grip. Think on a proper dry and warm day, and with more seat time, there is up to another 1.5-2 seconds on the table.
Overall I think the old banger still punches well
MF-Racing said:
Narr it's my daily car, gonna do 7 or 8 track days this year in it (next one next week!), but i'll be doing about 20 on my bike! I find the 4WD perfect for every day driving.
Fair enough. Yes, IME it's very nice to have the 4WD for year round usability.LaSource said:
Thanks for that. So my 1.57 in a 15 year old banger on the driest of 3 sessions wasn't too bad then
The last corner and corner 1 were still a bit low on grip. Think on a proper dry and warm day, and with more seat time, there is up to another 1.5-2 seconds on the table.
Overall I think the old banger still punches well
Plenty fast enough!The last corner and corner 1 were still a bit low on grip. Think on a proper dry and warm day, and with more seat time, there is up to another 1.5-2 seconds on the table.
Overall I think the old banger still punches well
I was happy with 2.14 on a lap with a back marker and plenty left on the table at Druids and Old Hall (corner1). The last corner seemed okay to me, until later in the afternoon when I had a bit of a tank-slapper.
Steve Rance said:
Digga said:
FWIW I did once receive about 20 minutes of tuition at Snetterton from this legend:
Very Tallented wheel man and a truly nice chap. RIP
How many times did he use the F### word during that session??
I wanted to get a later braking point sussed on the (old) Revett Straight. He said "next lap, you brake when I tell you". I can clearly remember passing my usual, preferred barking point and glancing across "NOT YET!" he yelled. The few seconds until he gave the word to brake were some of the longest in my life. I only just got the car turned in. He seemed completely unperturbed.
MF-Racing said:
ginettajoe said:
..... no, if that was the case, you would still eliminate your understeer! My guess is that you are releasing the brake pressure too early, even though you feel you are on the brakes! Because of that, the front suspension is rising, so when you turn, weight is transferring over the L/H front wheel!
It is interesting that you raced 'bikes (but now you've come to your senses!), because the most settled line in a car, is identical to the line on a 'bike, where the steering wheel becomes the 'bike, where the turn in is very progressive, in just the same way you lean very progessively on a 'bike!! in exactly the same analogy, the steering input is released relative to feeding in power, just as you would on a 'bike, allowing it to straighten up relative to opening the throttle! I hope that makes sense!! Forget what people tell you about late turn in, and a car line being different to a 'bike!! I'm sure you are well aware, that not many years ago, if someone told you to trail brake on a 'bike, you would think they were crazy!! Likewise, counter steering on a 'bike is something the average person would never understand!! As i said in an earlier post, driving techniques have moved on from the '70's late turn, point and squirt!!!
Thanks for this, that does make sense. I'll try to be more fluid with my inputs next time It is interesting that you raced 'bikes (but now you've come to your senses!), because the most settled line in a car, is identical to the line on a 'bike, where the steering wheel becomes the 'bike, where the turn in is very progressive, in just the same way you lean very progessively on a 'bike!! in exactly the same analogy, the steering input is released relative to feeding in power, just as you would on a 'bike, allowing it to straighten up relative to opening the throttle! I hope that makes sense!! Forget what people tell you about late turn in, and a car line being different to a 'bike!! I'm sure you are well aware, that not many years ago, if someone told you to trail brake on a 'bike, you would think they were crazy!! Likewise, counter steering on a 'bike is something the average person would never understand!! As i said in an earlier post, driving techniques have moved on from the '70's late turn, point and squirt!!!
ginettajoe said:
MF-Racing said:
ginettajoe said:
..... no, if that was the case, you would still eliminate your understeer! My guess is that you are releasing the brake pressure too early, even though you feel you are on the brakes! Because of that, the front suspension is rising, so when you turn, weight is transferring over the L/H front wheel!
It is interesting that you raced 'bikes (but now you've come to your senses!), because the most settled line in a car, is identical to the line on a 'bike, where the steering wheel becomes the 'bike, where the turn in is very progressive, in just the same way you lean very progessively on a 'bike!! in exactly the same analogy, the steering input is released relative to feeding in power, just as you would on a 'bike, allowing it to straighten up relative to opening the throttle! I hope that makes sense!! Forget what people tell you about late turn in, and a car line being different to a 'bike!! I'm sure you are well aware, that not many years ago, if someone told you to trail brake on a 'bike, you would think they were crazy!! Likewise, counter steering on a 'bike is something the average person would never understand!! As i said in an earlier post, driving techniques have moved on from the '70's late turn, point and squirt!!!
Thanks for this, that does make sense. I'll try to be more fluid with my inputs next time It is interesting that you raced 'bikes (but now you've come to your senses!), because the most settled line in a car, is identical to the line on a 'bike, where the steering wheel becomes the 'bike, where the turn in is very progressive, in just the same way you lean very progessively on a 'bike!! in exactly the same analogy, the steering input is released relative to feeding in power, just as you would on a 'bike, allowing it to straighten up relative to opening the throttle! I hope that makes sense!! Forget what people tell you about late turn in, and a car line being different to a 'bike!! I'm sure you are well aware, that not many years ago, if someone told you to trail brake on a 'bike, you would think they were crazy!! Likewise, counter steering on a 'bike is something the average person would never understand!! As i said in an earlier post, driving techniques have moved on from the '70's late turn, point and squirt!!!
When typing, instead of pressing 'Shift+1' repeatedly at the end of a sentence, just press '.' once.
I hope your coaching style is less exclamatory.
Steve Rance said:
Ok. If you have an LSD bear in mind that the diff is loccked under braking and accelleration. When you are on a trail throttle only it is open. In a 911 you need the diff to help you on a trail brake to settle the rear and - to a lesser extent - under accelleration. When you are on a trail throttle only the car will feel horrible. If you have help from the diff you need to be digital in the way that you drive the car. From your racing experience you will already know to be smooth with all inputs. When I drive a GT 911 I am either on the brakes or the throttle. The only time I use trail throttle is when the front tyres are so shot that they understeer even under a trail brake, then i will come off of the brakes, the car will be unstable as the diff unlocks and I use a trace of oversteer to rotate. If they are really shot, i will prod the throttle to rotate the car. As a guide, if you cannot pick up the throttle on the apex, you've got too much apex speed, if you can pick it up before the apex you dont have enough. Understanding trail braking and how the diff operates is a fundamental part of extracting time from a 911. Once you understand and can practice this techinque, the rest is just joining up the dots. you can work out the nuances of the line and positioning by feeling how the car is reacting when it is loaded. If you have the skills - which you probably do - to modulate the brake pedlal correctly on a trail then you will have the skills to feel what is happenening to the chassis as it loads up. Balance all of these to threashold and you have the perfect lap. Dont be caught up with one specific line, the 911 has exceptional traction compared with mid and front engined cars. You need to deploy it as soon as possible. The more power you have the more relivant this principal is.
Thanks for this. I’ll have a proper read and think later. Just read the broucher for my car. See attached page. Mine is PDK. 
pete.g said:
ginettajoe said:
MF-Racing said:
ginettajoe said:
..... no, if that was the case, you would still eliminate your understeer! My guess is that you are releasing the brake pressure too early, even though you feel you are on the brakes! Because of that, the front suspension is rising, so when you turn, weight is transferring over the L/H front wheel!
It is interesting that you raced 'bikes (but now you've come to your senses!), because the most settled line in a car, is identical to the line on a 'bike, where the steering wheel becomes the 'bike, where the turn in is very progressive, in just the same way you lean very progessively on a 'bike!! in exactly the same analogy, the steering input is released relative to feeding in power, just as you would on a 'bike, allowing it to straighten up relative to opening the throttle! I hope that makes sense!! Forget what people tell you about late turn in, and a car line being different to a 'bike!! I'm sure you are well aware, that not many years ago, if someone told you to trail brake on a 'bike, you would think they were crazy!! Likewise, counter steering on a 'bike is something the average person would never understand!! As i said in an earlier post, driving techniques have moved on from the '70's late turn, point and squirt!!!
Thanks for this, that does make sense. I'll try to be more fluid with my inputs next time It is interesting that you raced 'bikes (but now you've come to your senses!), because the most settled line in a car, is identical to the line on a 'bike, where the steering wheel becomes the 'bike, where the turn in is very progressive, in just the same way you lean very progessively on a 'bike!! in exactly the same analogy, the steering input is released relative to feeding in power, just as you would on a 'bike, allowing it to straighten up relative to opening the throttle! I hope that makes sense!! Forget what people tell you about late turn in, and a car line being different to a 'bike!! I'm sure you are well aware, that not many years ago, if someone told you to trail brake on a 'bike, you would think they were crazy!! Likewise, counter steering on a 'bike is something the average person would never understand!! As i said in an earlier post, driving techniques have moved on from the '70's late turn, point and squirt!!!
When typing, instead of pressing 'Shift+1' repeatedly at the end of a sentence, just press '.' once.
I hope your coaching style is less exclamatory.
ginettajoe said:
That is exactly right, but I was never aware of his style of coaching until a few months ago!! Going back about 5/6 years ago, I taught a 13 year old to drive with a view to him racing the following year in a junior series, the Junior Saloon Car Championship. I then coached him for two seasons, he was runner up in his first season, but won the championship in his second season. He then went on to race in Clios, and then the Clio Cup supporting the Touring Car series, which he won last year, but unfortunately following an appeal by another driver regarding an unconnected incident, was demoted to runner up! His name is James Dorlin, and has now joined McLaren on their driver development program, and unusually, is being paid to race.
The point I wanted to make was, when James phoned me a few months ago, and told me he had been to Bruntingthorpe with Rob Wilson, who finally said to James, there was not a lot he could teach him, and it was then that James confirmed his techniques were virtually the same as mine!
That’s interesting. So you teach over rotation? The point I wanted to make was, when James phoned me a few months ago, and told me he had been to Bruntingthorpe with Rob Wilson, who finally said to James, there was not a lot he could teach him, and it was then that James confirmed his techniques were virtually the same as mine!
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