Feh. Do I sell all the classics and just buy a modern?

Feh. Do I sell all the classics and just buy a modern?

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Discussion

Cheib

16,784 posts

120 months

Saturday 7th September
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964Cup said:
roca1976 said:
Consolidate all 3 into a back date 911?

https://www.jzmporsche.com/used-vehicle-details/Po...

Less drama if dinged compared to the RS and you could build your perfect spec?
Thought hard about this. The trouble with back-dates (especially 2.7RS and 3.0ST recreations) is that you have to put a lot of money in if you want a properly usable car - effectively you have to build a properly-restored 964 and then put the backdate bodyshell and interior over the top. What you end up with is potentially fun - although 964s need more on-going attention than you'd think - but worth less than the sum of its parts. There's been some froth out there in back-date pricing, driven by the likes of Singer, but ultimately I don't think any of them will hold their value. Especially since the 964-based stuff still has 13 years or so before it gets historic status, which at least gets you off the ULEZ and other emission-restriction issues. A lot of them seem to be built as semi-race spec as well, with stripped out interiors and so on. I don't get that at all, since they're going to be less fun around a track than a proper track car, but much less usable for touring than a car with a conventional interior.
Totally agree about building these cars with a stripped out race interior....totally ridiculous unless you follow it through and build a track spec car.

I had a look at the orange JZM car at their Cars and Coffee last weekend. Wouldn’t pretend to know anywhere near enough about these cars but just from the bodywork I wouldn’t consider it. The way the doors meet the front wings isn’t right...near the top of the wing the doors sit proud at one point at then sit below...to me that means that the car hasn’t been put together with an eye for detail so lord knows what else hasn’t been done properly. Maybe that’s why they’ve had it for a few months now.

Porsche911R

17,324 posts

210 months

Saturday 7th September
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Most look like that or worst though !

Hence why my mate got £300k for his old car, it was put together right and not a bitsa.

These 100k back dates on the whole look st and then at that money buy a real Porsche !

Odd market, people slag BMW owners off for an M badge but the amount of porker fakes is cringeworthy and he builds are shocking.

964Cup

Original Poster:

694 posts

182 months

Saturday 7th September
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Still having unclean thoughts about a GT3 Touring. Certainly my sort of car. But but but...

Will they really hold their value? It's a soft market, there's a new GT3 along soon, and even the least expensive is currently something like £50k over original list for a two-year-old (barely) used car. I don't mind depreciation on my everyday cars, but I'd prefer not to contract into it for a low-usage toy.

Can I live with the emissions? It's ok (-ish) dealing with my old cars - they're old, and in fact surprisingly economical (and therefore low in real-world CO2). But can I accept buying a new car that's the wrong side of 290g/km? Both in conscience and with an eye to future legislation.

Hmm.

Maybe the answer is to finish the RS, sell that, and buy a Touring. They're similar in intention, but the Touring might realistically be expected to a) work all the time and b) leave me feeling half-way human after a long drive.

We'll see. I think I'm going to go and have a look at a Touring anyway. Which is a bad sign.

nsa

1,418 posts

173 months

Saturday 7th September
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Another factor to consider is that despite the fact that manuals are an apparent must-have for the current generation of classic and sports car buyers, future generations raised on DCT, DSG, PDK, EV etc might not want to drive a manual car, which will depress the market further. I did about 1,000 miles in a manual NSX this summer in and out of towns (and I paid the ULEZ charge twice for an overnight stay in the City), and the novelty of changing gear wore off pretty quickly. Come 2021 it will be caught by the wider London ULEZ. It also had a couple of niggling issues that need sorting, and I don't even like the attention it gets. It's one of three classic-ish cars that I'm tempted to consolidate into one nice PDK 911.


964Cup

Original Poster:

694 posts

182 months

Saturday 7th September
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nsa said:
Another factor to consider is that despite the fact that manuals are an apparent must-have for the current generation of classic and sports car buyers, future generations raised on DCT, DSG, PDK, EV etc might not want to drive a manual car, which will depress the market further. I did about 1,000 miles in a manual NSX this summer in and out of towns (and I paid the ULEZ charge twice for an overnight stay in the City), and the novelty of changing gear wore off pretty quickly. Come 2021 it will be caught by the wider London ULEZ. It also had a couple of niggling issues that need sorting, and I don't even like the attention it gets. It's one of three classic-ish cars that I'm tempted to consolidate into one nice PDK 911.
The ULEZ requirement is Euro IV petrol for the moment, so not a problem for a GT3. And the 356 is exempt. Both 964s will be caught, but I don't drive any car every day, let alone either of those, so it's not at the top of my list of worries. As for holding value, I'm thinking of a 5-year period, and I'm fairly confident people will still drive manuals in 2024 - I'm more worried that no-one will buy a 290g car in 2024.

aeropilot

18,593 posts

172 months

Saturday 7th September
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964Cup said:
At least with the 356 it's so basic that you can maintain it with a screwdriver and a lump hammer; the downside is that it's so basic that it doesn't even have a ventilation fan.
That's why I'd keep the 356......

What's a ventilation fan laugh

I have to wind the front windscreen out laugh

Central London living is the problem, I'm only a bit further out along the A40, but it's a bloody nightmare and I'm in the process of trying to move out beyond the M25.

ChrisW.

3,184 posts

200 months

Saturday 7th September
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If you stop worrying about values it seems to me that you can please yourself ...

There was a time when owning a car, any car, cost money.

It may well be that this time will return ...

So, keep what you enjoy owning and are prepared to use money on, and sell the rest.

That way, you won't need to worry about predicting the future.

We spend to lives consuming money. Of course, you can choose not to, but we all have one life ?

Our only obligation in my world, is to spend it kindly ....

Ragatha christie

41 posts

4 months

Sunday 8th September
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I would have the 964 RS over anything modern

cmoose

44,929 posts

174 months

Sunday 8th September
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Stuff re speed cameras.

Vast majority of fun B and white roads in the UK have no cameras and zero policing. There are a few exceptions, but the majority of policing and cameras is focused on busier routes which are crap to drive regardless.

80kph D road limit in France is largely academic given 100kph was already well below what you'd be doing in a moderately quick Porsche to have fun and the level of policing across the vast swathe of France. Again, little to none. Yes, it's an issue on the schlep to the Le Mans 24. But personally I wouldn't bother driving to Le Mans for the race weekend or rather I wouldn't view the drive as an opportunity for fun.

Re the OP, I'd probably cash out of two of the cars and keep one, whichever is the favourite and buy a relatively modern. Though it wouldn't be a turbo car. Loads of very reliable moderns with lovely NA engines and manual gearboxes. Would probably be a 997.2 of some persuasion. 997 GTS, maybe? Plenty modern enough for pain free motoring. Heck, you can even run an extended Porsche warranty on it for a nearly-new ownership experience.

Ragatha christie

41 posts

4 months

Sunday 8th September
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Cheib said:
I had a look at the orange JZM car at their Cars and Coffee last weekend. Wouldn’t pretend to know anywhere near enough about these cars but just from the bodywork I wouldn’t consider it. The way the doors meet the front wings isn’t right...near the top of the wing the doors sit proud at one point at then sit below...to me that means that the car hasn’t been put together with an eye for detail so lord knows what else hasn’t been done properly. Maybe that’s why they’ve had it for a few months now.
I thought it looked was tidy, bonnet was not a perfect fit but having checked out the white one (Hairpin) at Classic motor hub.. the paint and bodywork was not as good as the orange one, however at the right price I would have either car! Both have proper engines

Cheib said:
Maybe that’s why they’ve had it for a few months now.
I think its too much money, maybe the orange dash put some people off? I have no doubt it will drive amazing and If I had the cash I would be all over it, same with white one

964Cup

Original Poster:

694 posts

182 months

Sunday 8th September
quotequote all
cmoose said:
Stuff re speed cameras.

Vast majority of fun B and white roads in the UK have no cameras and zero policing. There are a few exceptions, but the majority of policing and cameras is focused on busier routes which are crap to drive regardless.
The thing is, I'm not much interested these days in going for a random drive to nowhere, and I find that the horrible over-trafficked camera-laden roads vastly outweigh the brief periods of B-road pleasure on most UK journeys to anywhere worth visiting. It's not a problem if your car is bearable in the crap bits, but it certainly is if you spend the entire time you're stuck in traffic worrying what's going to go wrong next. I'm still reasonably hopeful that I can get both the RS and the cab to a point where they cope properly with traffic (although the RS doesn't have aircon, obvs); the 356 is a whole different thing.

cmoose said:
80kph D road limit in France is largely academic given 100kph was already well below what you'd be doing in a moderately quick Porsche to have fun and the level of policing across the vast swathe of France. Again, little to none. Yes, it's an issue on the schlep to the Le Mans 24. But personally I wouldn't bother driving to Le Mans for the race weekend or rather I wouldn't view the drive as an opportunity for fun.
We have a house in Normandy; you'd be surprised how much policing, and how many cameras, we see in the middle of bloody nowhere (and by the number of tickets I've had for speeds fractionally above the limit). I still tend to drive "spiritedly" out there, and it's a much more natural habitat for all of my cars, but it's not the free-for-all it was even 10 years ago.

cmoose said:
Re the OP, I'd probably cash out of two of the cars and keep one, whichever is the favourite and buy a relatively modern. Though it wouldn't be a turbo car. Loads of very reliable moderns with lovely NA engines and manual gearboxes. Would probably be a 997.2 of some persuasion. 997 GTS, maybe? Plenty modern enough for pain free motoring. Heck, you can even run an extended Porsche warranty on it for a nearly-new ownership experience.
This has become the plan - at least the buying a modern part. I'm not sure I'm ready to give up on the classics just yet, but I think I need a fun car that can be relied upon to work properly. The shortlist at the moment is 911 Carrera T, 911 Targa and 911 GT3 Touring (in roughly ascending order of self-indulgence). I think the Tourings are overpriced at the moment; there's a 992 GT3 Touring apparently on the way, and for a no-cost option they're currently asking a good 40k more than an equivalent regular GT3 (to the point where I wonder if you could just fit the rear deck to a standard car). The 911 Carrera T got good reviews, but the actual changes don't seem all that special. The Targa is, I think, the best looking current 911 (with an aluminium roll-hoop, natch) but I hear it has bad buffeting; I need to drive one and find out. I'm also not at all convinced I want a turbo motor, although I've not driven any of the current generation of Porsche light-pressure turbos.

Other marques are of course available. I can't stand the look of any of the current Astons; I'm not having another Ferrari after my 360 experience; and I'm not a drug dealer, a pimp or a rap "star" so I can't have a Lamborghini. I hear very mixed stories about McLarens in terms of reliability, and I don't really like the look of them. The only other thing (at my nominal £160k-ish price cap) that has me interested is a BMW i8 roadster - we have an I3, I love the futurism and (relative) eco-sensitivity of it, but I can't help thinking it's all a bit Gen 1 and that considerably more resolved and exciting BEV or hybrid sportscars will be along in due course. So...other marques aren't really available. Good thing i'm posting in the Porsche forum, then...

AndrewCrown

980 posts

59 months

Sunday 8th September
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964

My dear chap...with greatest respect...when I read your posts, I could imagine Marvin in hitchhikers guide to the galaxy....

I think you need to do something bold...really bold...and my Rx is:

Sell everything ‘as is’
Get out of London or live more in Normandy

Buy something ridiculous or random...




cmoose

44,929 posts

174 months

Sunday 8th September
quotequote all
964Cup said:
The thing is, I'm not much interested these days in going for a random drive to nowhere, and I find that the horrible over-trafficked camera-laden roads vastly outweigh the brief periods of B-road pleasure on most UK journeys to anywhere worth visiting. It's not a problem if your car is bearable in the crap bits, but it certainly is if you spend the entire time you're stuck in traffic worrying what's going to go wrong next. I'm still reasonably hopeful that I can get both the RS and the cab to a point where they cope properly with traffic (although the RS doesn't have aircon, obvs); the 356 is a whole different thing.
With respect, suspect you're not trying hard enough. I live in Bath and drive to Chichester / Goodwood area quite a of, by way of example. Both places I would say are worth visiting! Go on the main roads and it's pretty grim. But I've lost count of the fabulous B road routes. I mean there are numerous alternative routes during which you can drive the doorhandles off the car with essentially zero concern for your licence. I have fantastic drives there and back regularly. You have to make a bit of effort regards routing, but it's well worth it.

This is just one example. The general rule holds, stay off the main roads. Sometimes on the way back from London I'll jump off the M4 and hit the B roads white roads about half way. You can do this during the 5:30 rush hour and said roads are largely deserted. Go on the M4 or A4 and it'll obviously be st!

I'm fairly convinced that a lot of the problem is ultimately a lack of imagination and just slavishly using the most obvious routes.

Ragatha christie

41 posts

4 months

Sunday 8th September
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Porsche911R said:
Hence why my mate got £300k for his old car, it was put together right and not a bitsa.
What was that?

BertBert

12,895 posts

156 months

Sunday 8th September
quotequote all
964Cup said:
but it certainly is if you spend the entire time you're stuck in traffic worrying what's going to go wrong next. .
So that's yet problem. You need some decent maintenance. They are inherently reliable cars, why would they go wrong in traffic?
Bert

projectgt

257 posts

105 months

Sunday 8th September
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Have you driven a Singer Porsche, an Eagle Jaguar or considered any of the factory/dealership restored cars? On paper they seem to tick all of the boxes.

A 996 GT3 that has had a full going over or something would provide peace of mind for longer trips surely?

964Cup

Original Poster:

694 posts

182 months

Sunday 8th September
quotequote all
projectgt said:
Have you driven a Singer Porsche, an Eagle Jaguar or considered any of the factory/dealership restored cars? On paper they seem to tick all of the boxes.

A 996 GT3 that has had a full going over or something would provide peace of mind for longer trips surely?
Singers and Eagles are too expensive. Early Singers made some sense, I think, but now they've jumped the shark with prices in millions. I'm not E-Type person, either, I think - a nicely-restored roadster drove past me earlier today, and while I appreciated the looks, it didn't spark an acquisitive interest. I could be tempted to Emory-ify my 356 but again the money is insane.

I had a 996 GT3 and hated it (although I'm told the 996.2 GT3 was a huge improvement).

Penguinracer

834 posts

151 months

Sunday 8th September
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I think your estimates on getting into the air probably on the high side as training in the US, Canada, Australia or New Zealand are considerably cheaper than in the UK.Ideally you'd train outside the UK as the weather here makes for slow, inconsistent progress in the early stages.

I'm a Kiwi & learnt to fly in the Southern Alps where the orographic effect can be so strong that even commercial turbo-props (HS748) have been known to be unable to hold altitude in the grips of a rotor. The wave effects there have been measured at 65,000 ft & the weather can pluck any light aircraft out of the air if it gets in leeward rotor.

I wouldn't bother with a piston twin as their single engine ceiling & climb performance are still inadequate for IFR flight over the Alps.Their load advantage over a turbo piston single is marginal & their block time similar.

Airmanship & a strong understanding of meterology and instruction in mountain flying skills are the key to safe mountain flying. The market for piston twins is effectively dead & they're very difficult to sell other than at a loss as affluent buyers have moved to turbine singles, a class which barely existed 40 years ago.

IFR in a piston single where you carefully choose your days, avoid night flights with the family, avoid icing, even with FIKI gear, and good airmanship is a sensible place to be. If you definitely need to be somewhere no matter what you need turbine/jet power or to catch an Easyjet flight.

Flying like sailing requires a good amount of time & if you're time limited I can see how a GT3 Touring would be a great replacement for the 964's and be drivable in London beyond October 2021(I also live in central London).

964Cup

Original Poster:

694 posts

182 months

Sunday 8th September
quotequote all
BertBert said:
So that's yet problem. You need some decent maintenance. They are inherently reliable cars, why would they go wrong in traffic?
Bert
They might have been reliable when new (although actually my first ever 964, a '90 C4 that I bought in '97, already had some persistent glitches) but they're far from new now. None of these cars ever seem to have been looked after properly, so there's a huge amount to do to them to have any chance they'll be reliable. The 964 was pretty well the first mainstream Porsche to use a lot of electronics (I imagine the 928 may well be worse, I've not had one), and in these now 26+-year-old cars the multiple ECUs and endlessly bodged-about electrical systems almost constantly have some kind of gremlin - viz for instance this summer's main drama with the 964 cab where the climate control unit, which also runs the oil cooler fan (obviously...) and auxiliary engine fan (ditto...) has a small fan attached to the back of it that draws in cabin air as part of the feedback loop for the aircon. This fan has permanent power, because it's supposed to keep running for a short while after you turn the car off, in case you turn it on again and immediately want the correct cabin temperature. Vital, I'm sure you agree. Of course, after 26 years, the transistor that eventually turns this fan off can fail. When it does, the fan runs continuously, drawing about 1A, and drains your battery. To fix it, you either buy a vastly expensive used unit (that may well have the same fault) or send it off to one of three specialists worldwide who can fix it. Without a CCU you run all sorts of risks of overheating in very hot weather. So, of course, in the midst of the heatwave my CCU exhibited these symptoms, meaning a) the car kindly surprised me by not starting when I needed it and b) I had to both buy a temporary replacement unit and get my original repaired. Joy. Now the enormous (given how little it actually does) ECU unit that runs the laughably basic on-board computer has decided to run at 90 degrees C, so I have another exciting electronic adventure ahead of me.

Here's the complete list of issues so far with the 964 cab, which has a comprehensive history file, a multiple-Porsche-owning PCGB member as previous owner, and a previous restoration. Some are just symptoms of the car not having been used for a while, but by no means all. Those with a * are still to do:

It needed a full service, including plugs, filters and changing all fluids plus new discs and pads.

MAF casing bodged and leaking
ISV dirty
DME faulty
Battery earth lead faulty
Vacuum lines disconnected
Fan shroud to heating system plastic duct failed
Left and right fans in HVAC system failed
HVAC flaps disconnected
CCU fan failed
VDO central indicator ECU overheating
Clutch slave cylinder failed
Overheating in slow traffic (still under investigation) - probably #2 aux fan plus oil cooler fan*
First and second gear almost impossible to obtain when hot (partly fixed by clutch slave cylinder replacement, partly an overheating issue)
RH mirror motor failed
LH mirror glass incorrect
Cigar lighter socket failed*
Aircon u/s - needed a new condenser, a new evaporator and a regas
Outside temp sensor u/s*
Door speakers rotted
RH window mechanism needs lubrication*
Hood inner fabric worn - hood centre support retaining elastic straps failed*
Brake fluid leak (probably failed brake pressure relief valve)*
Tendency to stall in reverse; also occasional hot-start issues (probably more ISV problems)*
Courtesy lights not working*
O/S door checkstrap u/s*
Dash dimmer broken off*
Gauge rubbers need replacement*
Clock face needs replacement (usual 964 thing of the indicator lights overheating the plastic film)*
Seatbelt sensors u/s*
Heated seats u/s*
OBC lever misaligned*
Spare wheel retaining bolt and washer missing
Compressor u/s (it had had a replacement 12v plug bodged on; I've fitted a proper replacement)
Emergency triangle missing
Geometry hopeless
Boot carpet velcro failed
RH map pocket lid latch mechanism failed*

I've also changed the steering wheel, bought the correct alloys (but not fitted them as I like how it looks on 18s), changed all the exterior bulbs for LEDs, reset the Laserline alarm and added a new fob, had a duplicate key cut, fitted a Porsche Classic satnav, replaced the pointless cassette holders with an oddments tray, tidied the under-dash wiring, changed the heated rear window switch for a heated mirror switch (not period correct, but come on, Porsche, you didn't fit a heated rear window to a cabriolet until the 996), fitted a showy number plate and bought a custom cover that I've barely used because it's never in my garage...

It also now needs a little bodywork since someone kindly dinged the o/s door in a French supermarket car park, and I really ought to do a sympathetic refurb on the interior leather, without wrecking the patina. And since it's got 105k miles, it will probably need a top-end rebuild at some point in the next three years. And I should probably fit a new battery.

And that's one car of three. I could give you the equivalent lists for the other two, but then I'd have to go and lie down for a while.


alabbasi

854 posts

32 months

Monday 9th September
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I debated that once and started buying the nicest examples of the cars i could afford vs average drivers. I found myself being terrified of driving them (parking them rather) because of other idiots swinging doors open and putting dings in them and I missed tinkering.

I think that an un assuming daily shed and a couple of air cooled porsche drivers is not a bad option. Who cares what you sit in if you're parked in a London traffic jam? that's what the ex rep mobile is for.