997 GTS to V12 Vantage - Talk me out of it
Discussion
I've owned my 997 GTS for 5+ years (RWD Manual Coupe on centre locks with 24k miles and full OPC history) and loved every minute of it and still do. The problem is with the other cars in the stable it is only doing sub 1500 mile per year and seems just a little too "usable" and practical for such low mileage. I use an E93 for family trips and an ecoboost fiesta to get to the station.
Reviewing options at a sensible price, the AM V12 Vantage keeps coming up as within reach (15-20k to change) and seems to holding its money similarly to the way the GTS has historically. I am not a regular track dayer, so want something more "special" for touring and special "sporty" drives on my own or with the other half so i don't think a GT3 is the way to go (in any case a Gen2 997 is the one I would want and its a lot more money than the V12V which are around 75k for a sub 20k mile 2012 manual).
Porsche won't sell me a new 718 Spyder which i considered, and nothing else in the range seems to tick the "special" box.
For background I have owned a 987 Boxter S, 997.1S, 997.1 C4S Cab, 997.1 TT, 997.1 TT Cab and now the 997 GTS, a Maz Granturismo and many TVRs back in the day.
Where would you go next or would you stick?
Reviewing options at a sensible price, the AM V12 Vantage keeps coming up as within reach (15-20k to change) and seems to holding its money similarly to the way the GTS has historically. I am not a regular track dayer, so want something more "special" for touring and special "sporty" drives on my own or with the other half so i don't think a GT3 is the way to go (in any case a Gen2 997 is the one I would want and its a lot more money than the V12V which are around 75k for a sub 20k mile 2012 manual).
Porsche won't sell me a new 718 Spyder which i considered, and nothing else in the range seems to tick the "special" box.
For background I have owned a 987 Boxter S, 997.1S, 997.1 C4S Cab, 997.1 TT, 997.1 TT Cab and now the 997 GTS, a Maz Granturismo and many TVRs back in the day.
Where would you go next or would you stick?
c4sman said:
Could you help me understand why?
Sweet spot in the range, you will miss it like hell if you sell it, the V12 will feel fat and lardy on any B road.But some times a change is needed to find out how good the car is you owned.
or some time you just need to tick box's and the V12 would be a nice box to tick.
I am on 74 cars but only regret 4 or 5 buys and only bought the same car back once.
can you fund the V12 for 3 months and then decide what to keep ?
Never driven one but I'd be tempted. The 997 is a nice car, but unless it's a GT3 I think they are somewhat over hyped for where they're valued. Indeed, I would try and drive a GT3 as you will find out just how different they are to your GTS.
A manual V12 Vantage will always be desirable I imagine; all that engine stuffed into a relatively small car. I imagine far more of an event for the weekend.
A manual V12 Vantage will always be desirable I imagine; all that engine stuffed into a relatively small car. I imagine far more of an event for the weekend.
I think the Aston would be more special for Touring but less special for Sporty drives. Although it really depends on you and what ticks your box....for some people they'll get more pleasure out of hustling a nimble sports car down a country road and others will get more pleasure out of hearing that V12. So hard for anyone else to say what's best !
I've got a manual 997 GTS too and am lucky enough to have a 991;2 GT3....have run them both for the best part of 18 months and can't bear to part with the GTS. GT3 is obviously a much more "intense" drive but the GTS is just a great package and more than the sum of it's parts IMHO. People rave about 991.2 T's but a manual 997 GTS is a much better car for me....more powerful naturally aspirated engine with a lovely top end, hydraulic steering etc and they're beautiful cars. I love the V12 Vantage although I've never driven one...also like the DBS which is similarish money now.
I'd definitely want an extended test drive or ideally what 911 R says....if you could run both for three months that would be perfect. Two years ago you'd probably have struggled to get an extended test drive but I think now a dealer would be much more accommodating. If you do sell your GTS don't let it go too cheap....it'll sell very quickly if it's got a decent spec even in this market.
I've got a manual 997 GTS too and am lucky enough to have a 991;2 GT3....have run them both for the best part of 18 months and can't bear to part with the GTS. GT3 is obviously a much more "intense" drive but the GTS is just a great package and more than the sum of it's parts IMHO. People rave about 991.2 T's but a manual 997 GTS is a much better car for me....more powerful naturally aspirated engine with a lovely top end, hydraulic steering etc and they're beautiful cars. I love the V12 Vantage although I've never driven one...also like the DBS which is similarish money now.
I'd definitely want an extended test drive or ideally what 911 R says....if you could run both for three months that would be perfect. Two years ago you'd probably have struggled to get an extended test drive but I think now a dealer would be much more accommodating. If you do sell your GTS don't let it go too cheap....it'll sell very quickly if it's got a decent spec even in this market.
I'd definitely go for an extended test drive. I was looking at getting a manual V12V 'S' a couple of months ago and, with the state of the market for this sort of car, they'll bite your hand off if you show serious interest.
I would echo what others are saying. I'd be slow to get rid of the GTS. I got rid of my turbo in similar circumstances to yours and really regretted it within a few months. It's easy to take the brilliance of the 997 for granted and, if/when you look for a replacement, you'll see lots of tired, abused or overpriced cars.
What put me off the Aston was that the V12 was depreciating heavily and the V12VS looked overpriced, so, if I got sick of it, I might suffer a big hit when trying to get back into a 911. It's a bit of an unfair comparison, but I just kept thinking of my TVR-owning experience: great character but great potential for headaches at every level. (Two close friends of mine had a succession of problems with the V8Vs which soon got tiresome.)
I would echo what others are saying. I'd be slow to get rid of the GTS. I got rid of my turbo in similar circumstances to yours and really regretted it within a few months. It's easy to take the brilliance of the 997 for granted and, if/when you look for a replacement, you'll see lots of tired, abused or overpriced cars.
What put me off the Aston was that the V12 was depreciating heavily and the V12VS looked overpriced, so, if I got sick of it, I might suffer a big hit when trying to get back into a 911. It's a bit of an unfair comparison, but I just kept thinking of my TVR-owning experience: great character but great potential for headaches at every level. (Two close friends of mine had a succession of problems with the V8Vs which soon got tiresome.)
Thought I’d give an AM V8 Vantage a try after coming out of numerous 996/997 GT3’s.
I went with what I was led to believe was a “special” more sporty version, an N400 in this Zanzibar-esque hue :
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.carmagazine.co....
I read the various road tests and forum threads and went on the road test looking for a change and with an open mind.
Let’s just say the road test was short, this despite me wanting to like the car, it fell so short of my expectations and lacked what I wanted, there was little point driving it any longer than 20 minutes.
Engine : Allegedly 400 horsepower in this iteration.
Maybe, but it felt more like 300, a subsequent chat with an AM engineer recently indicated the cars were overly heavy (1630 kg) despite featuring aluminium in their construction.
That Aston subsequently enlarged the engine and upped the horsepower seemed a taciturn admittance that the original engine wasn’t man enough for the job.
The N400 I drive sounded glorious, but was gutless and completely lacking in any immediacy when required ...
Any sprightliness required the tachometer needle to be bouncing off its stop.
Control weights : Heavy/meaty gearshift, but all the pedals felt like you were pressing down on a blancmange, whilst the steering column UJ’s and rack mountings felt like they’d been forged from weapons grade marshmallow (and this despite the N400 having tweaked springs, dampers and anti-roll bars ...)
On the plus side, the car was very well received by other road users during that 20 minute road test, and whilst the drive itself wasn’t special, driving the car did make you feel special (it’s British, and the whole Aston “thing” is inextricably linked to the smooth, suave J.Bond character).
The road test was unequivocal, and add to the mix Aston’s horrendous reputation when it came to reliability, and I once more returned to the Porsche fold.
The AM engineer I recently spoke to, went on to say that if I thought the V8 was poor, the V12 was worse still, primarily because shoehorning that big V12 into the chassis did it no favours whatsoever, and whilst the additional horsepower addressed the original car’s woeful performance, it did nothing for the car’s handling dynamics ...
I went with what I was led to believe was a “special” more sporty version, an N400 in this Zanzibar-esque hue :
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.carmagazine.co....
I read the various road tests and forum threads and went on the road test looking for a change and with an open mind.
Let’s just say the road test was short, this despite me wanting to like the car, it fell so short of my expectations and lacked what I wanted, there was little point driving it any longer than 20 minutes.
Engine : Allegedly 400 horsepower in this iteration.
Maybe, but it felt more like 300, a subsequent chat with an AM engineer recently indicated the cars were overly heavy (1630 kg) despite featuring aluminium in their construction.
That Aston subsequently enlarged the engine and upped the horsepower seemed a taciturn admittance that the original engine wasn’t man enough for the job.
The N400 I drive sounded glorious, but was gutless and completely lacking in any immediacy when required ...
Any sprightliness required the tachometer needle to be bouncing off its stop.
Control weights : Heavy/meaty gearshift, but all the pedals felt like you were pressing down on a blancmange, whilst the steering column UJ’s and rack mountings felt like they’d been forged from weapons grade marshmallow (and this despite the N400 having tweaked springs, dampers and anti-roll bars ...)
On the plus side, the car was very well received by other road users during that 20 minute road test, and whilst the drive itself wasn’t special, driving the car did make you feel special (it’s British, and the whole Aston “thing” is inextricably linked to the smooth, suave J.Bond character).
The road test was unequivocal, and add to the mix Aston’s horrendous reputation when it came to reliability, and I once more returned to the Porsche fold.
The AM engineer I recently spoke to, went on to say that if I thought the V8 was poor, the V12 was worse still, primarily because shoehorning that big V12 into the chassis did it no favours whatsoever, and whilst the additional horsepower addressed the original car’s woeful performance, it did nothing for the car’s handling dynamics ...
Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 9th September 11:31
Porsche911R said:
Sweet spot in the range, you will miss it like hell if you sell it, the V12 will feel fat and lardy on any B road.
But some times a change is needed to find out how good the car is you owned.
or some time you just need to tick box's and the V12 would be a nice box to tick.
I am on 74 cars but only regret 4 or 5 buys and only bought the same car back once.
can you fund the V12 for 3 months and then decide what to keep ?
Thanks and interesting, I could fund both for 3 months, but would just need to make sure I bought the V12V well to make sure don't loose my shirt on the dealer margins should I want to sell it on.But some times a change is needed to find out how good the car is you owned.
or some time you just need to tick box's and the V12 would be a nice box to tick.
I am on 74 cars but only regret 4 or 5 buys and only bought the same car back once.
can you fund the V12 for 3 months and then decide what to keep ?
IMI A said:
You should take V12 for an extended test drive and then post up your thoughts - I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts as those V12 Vantages starting to look very good value.
I think that is the next step. I have only driven an earlyish DB9 and was very underwhelmed by the experience. Just felt like a brisk barge.Cheib said:
I think the Aston would be more special for Touring but less special for Sporty drives. Although it really depends on you and what ticks your box....for some people they'll get more pleasure out of hustling a nimble sports car down a country road and others will get more pleasure out of hearing that V12. So hard for anyone else to say what's best !
I've got a manual 997 GTS too and am lucky enough to have a 991;2 GT3....have run them both for the best part of 18 months and can't bear to part with the GTS. GT3 is obviously a much more "intense" drive but the GTS is just a great package and more than the sum of it's parts IMHO. People rave about 991.2 T's but a manual 997 GTS is a much better car for me....more powerful naturally aspirated engine with a lovely top end, hydraulic steering etc and they're beautiful cars. I love the V12 Vantage although I've never driven one...also like the DBS which is similarish money now.
I'd definitely want an extended test drive or ideally what 911 R says....if you could run both for three months that would be perfect. Two years ago you'd probably have struggled to get an extended test drive but I think now a dealer would be much more accommodating. If you do sell your GTS don't let it go too cheap....it'll sell very quickly if it's got a decent spec even in this market.
The bit above about the GTS is why i have had it for so long. I do think it is more than the sum of it's parts and love the top end of it's engine. Made a Cayman GT4 engine feel a bit flat to me when I test drove one of them.I've got a manual 997 GTS too and am lucky enough to have a 991;2 GT3....have run them both for the best part of 18 months and can't bear to part with the GTS. GT3 is obviously a much more "intense" drive but the GTS is just a great package and more than the sum of it's parts IMHO. People rave about 991.2 T's but a manual 997 GTS is a much better car for me....more powerful naturally aspirated engine with a lovely top end, hydraulic steering etc and they're beautiful cars. I love the V12 Vantage although I've never driven one...also like the DBS which is similarish money now.
I'd definitely want an extended test drive or ideally what 911 R says....if you could run both for three months that would be perfect. Two years ago you'd probably have struggled to get an extended test drive but I think now a dealer would be much more accommodating. If you do sell your GTS don't let it go too cheap....it'll sell very quickly if it's got a decent spec even in this market.
Slippydiff said:
Thought I’d give an AM V8 Vantage a try after coming out of numerous 996/997 GT3’s.
I went with what I was led to believe was a “special” more sporty version, an N400 in this Zanzibar-esque hue :
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.carmagazine.co....
I read the various road tests and forum threads and went on the road test looking for a change and with an open mind.
Let’s just say the road test was short, this despite me wanting to like the car, it fell so short of my expectations and lacked what I wanted, there was little point driving it any longer than 20 minutes.
Engine : Allegedly 400 horsepower in this iteration.
Maybe, but it felt more like 300, a subsequent chat with an AM engineer recently indicated the cars were overly heavy (1630 kg) despite featuring aluminium in their construction.
That Aston subsequently enlarged the engine and upped the horsepower seemed a taciturn admittance that the original engine wasn’t man enough for the job.
The N400 I drive sounded glorious, but was gutless and completely lacking in any immediacy when required ...
Any sprightliness required the tachometer needle to be bouncing off its stop.
Control weights : Heavy/meaty gearshift, but all the pedals felt like you were pressing down on a blancmange, whilst the steering column UJ’s and rack mountings felt like they’d been forged from weapons grade marshmallow (and this despite the N400 having tweaked springs, dampers and anti-roll bars ...)
On the plus side, the car was very well received by other road users during that 20 minute road test, and whilst the drive itself wasn’t special, driving the car did make you feel special (it’s British, and the whole Aston “thing” is inextricably linked to the smooth, suave J.Bond character).
The road test was unequivocal, and add to the mix Aston’s horrendous reputation when it came to reliability, and I once more returned to the Porsche fold.
The AM engineer I recently spoke to, went on to say that if I thought the V8 was poor, the V12 was worse still, primarily because shoehorning that big V12 into the chassis did it no favours whatsoever, and whilst the additional horsepower addressed the original car’s woeful performance, it did nothing for the car’s handling dynamics ...
Thanks for the views and very interesting. I definitely need to get a test drive!I went with what I was led to believe was a “special” more sporty version, an N400 in this Zanzibar-esque hue :
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.carmagazine.co....
I read the various road tests and forum threads and went on the road test looking for a change and with an open mind.
Let’s just say the road test was short, this despite me wanting to like the car, it fell so short of my expectations and lacked what I wanted, there was little point driving it any longer than 20 minutes.
Engine : Allegedly 400 horsepower in this iteration.
Maybe, but it felt more like 300, a subsequent chat with an AM engineer recently indicated the cars were overly heavy (1630 kg) despite featuring aluminium in their construction.
That Aston subsequently enlarged the engine and upped the horsepower seemed a taciturn admittance that the original engine wasn’t man enough for the job.
The N400 I drive sounded glorious, but was gutless and completely lacking in any immediacy when required ...
Any sprightliness required the tachometer needle to be bouncing off its stop.
Control weights : Heavy/meaty gearshift, but all the pedals felt like you were pressing down on a blancmange, whilst the steering column UJ’s and rack mountings felt like they’d been forged from weapons grade marshmallow (and this despite the N400 having tweaked springs, dampers and anti-roll bars ...)
On the plus side, the car was very well received by other road users during that 20 minute road test, and whilst the drive itself wasn’t special, driving the car did make you feel special (it’s British, and the whole Aston “thing” is inextricably linked to the smooth, suave J.Bond character).
The road test was unequivocal, and add to the mix Aston’s horrendous reputation when it came to reliability, and I once more returned to the Porsche fold.
The AM engineer I recently spoke to, went on to say that if I thought the V8 was poor, the V12 was worse still, primarily because shoehorning that big V12 into the chassis did it no favours whatsoever, and whilst the additional horsepower addressed the original car’s woeful performance, it did nothing for the car’s handling dynamics ...
Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 9th September 11:31
You should stick.
If you get rid of the GTS, you'll probably never be able to get one back of similar spec - if you think you've made a mistake.
There are a good amount of V12's about.
The thing about the 911 and in particular GTS spec is that is true is all things to all people....and with Manual..its what i'd call a till-death-do us part car... who ever dies first..me or the car....and other cars in the garage are just in addition.
If you want to spice it up you could do some light changes to make it that bit more focussed or emotional... for much less than the cost to change.
Get a cross-over pipe for the exhaust to get some more sound.
You shouldn't need more power - but there might be something you can do with a light Cobb tune.
And then - you just need to drive to more.
I had a PDK 997 GTS for three years.... the only reason I sold it was because it was a PDK and when I drove a gen2 PDK - it made my car feel out dated. If it was a Manual... I might well still have it 8 years later.
If you get rid of the GTS, you'll probably never be able to get one back of similar spec - if you think you've made a mistake.
There are a good amount of V12's about.
The thing about the 911 and in particular GTS spec is that is true is all things to all people....and with Manual..its what i'd call a till-death-do us part car... who ever dies first..me or the car....and other cars in the garage are just in addition.
If you want to spice it up you could do some light changes to make it that bit more focussed or emotional... for much less than the cost to change.
Get a cross-over pipe for the exhaust to get some more sound.
You shouldn't need more power - but there might be something you can do with a light Cobb tune.
And then - you just need to drive to more.
I had a PDK 997 GTS for three years.... the only reason I sold it was because it was a PDK and when I drove a gen2 PDK - it made my car feel out dated. If it was a Manual... I might well still have it 8 years later.
Edited by TDT on Monday 9th September 11:47
I think you need to try a GT3! 997.1 or 997.2, doesn't really matter as they both have the Mezger engine 
I was kind of in a similar situation, went from a 997.2 C2S to a 997.1 GT3. While being a great sports car, the Carrera was a little too useable day to day especially as it was PDK. After doing an Alps trip this summer, the GT3 experience is every bit as awesome I thought it would be. The infotainment system is a step backwards from the .2 but who cares!
I was kind of in a similar situation, went from a 997.2 C2S to a 997.1 GT3. While being a great sports car, the Carrera was a little too useable day to day especially as it was PDK. After doing an Alps trip this summer, the GT3 experience is every bit as awesome I thought it would be. The infotainment system is a step backwards from the .2 but who cares!
It's a different animal to the 997 GTS, but as someone who regularly moves between Pork and Aston's I can say the V12 Vantage will get under your skin in the same way as the GTS has. It is stunning to behold and the V12 is awesome, less "touchy feely" than the GTS, but still great to drive. It is also good to have a change rather than moving from Pork-Pork, residuals and reliability are both also good. Best of luck with your decision
I test-drove a V12 S recently (the automated manual version). Decent 25 minutes on a fast winding A-road.
Honestly came away a bit underwhelmed. It felt more GT to me than sports car...too comfortable & smooth on the road..bit boring. Maybe that's just because I'm in a 993 with newish suspension that is sending me so much feedback through the steering & road.
I also didn't fall in love with the V12 soundtrack - a great sound but pretty one-dimensional across the rev range rather than in an n/a 911 where you move from a bassy burble to an angry roar to a proper howl towards redline.
Finally I found the waves and waves of torque quite boring - too easy to drive fast, I like the challenge & effort of chasing the redline, keeping the revs up.
When I got back in the 993 and drove home it was flat out MORE ENGAGING., MORE FUN. This is an analysis of the car for a weekend fun tool, to de-stress and get a buzz, rather than touring around Europe.
I would like to try the manual V12 as that added element might make things much more interesting. Personally at that money I'd be looking at a 991.1 GTS or if 2 seats is ok, something like an F430 or 997.1 GT3. I also actually thought the F type R awd was a riot compared to the V12 vantage, they're good value now although will keep falling.
Honestly came away a bit underwhelmed. It felt more GT to me than sports car...too comfortable & smooth on the road..bit boring. Maybe that's just because I'm in a 993 with newish suspension that is sending me so much feedback through the steering & road.
I also didn't fall in love with the V12 soundtrack - a great sound but pretty one-dimensional across the rev range rather than in an n/a 911 where you move from a bassy burble to an angry roar to a proper howl towards redline.
Finally I found the waves and waves of torque quite boring - too easy to drive fast, I like the challenge & effort of chasing the redline, keeping the revs up.
When I got back in the 993 and drove home it was flat out MORE ENGAGING., MORE FUN. This is an analysis of the car for a weekend fun tool, to de-stress and get a buzz, rather than touring around Europe.
I would like to try the manual V12 as that added element might make things much more interesting. Personally at that money I'd be looking at a 991.1 GTS or if 2 seats is ok, something like an F430 or 997.1 GT3. I also actually thought the F type R awd was a riot compared to the V12 vantage, they're good value now although will keep falling.
I moved from a 997 GTS to a V8 S Vantage and quite happy with the change.
I used to like track days and pushing the limits on Euro jaunts but I've slowed down a bit and prefer a brisk drive and the Vantage makes this more of an occasion. The Aston is a good GT and a decent sports car up to 70%, the GTS was certainly better when really pushing on.
The Aston is certainly thirsty but running costs are similar (insurance, servicing, warranty) for the V8, the V12 is a bit more to run. I had a mechanical issue with the car when I first got it (approved used) but that was really down to a mistake by an Aston technician, since that was identified and repaired the car has been faultless.
Astons don't have the residuals of Porsche so ownership will be more costly overall.
I used to like track days and pushing the limits on Euro jaunts but I've slowed down a bit and prefer a brisk drive and the Vantage makes this more of an occasion. The Aston is a good GT and a decent sports car up to 70%, the GTS was certainly better when really pushing on.
The Aston is certainly thirsty but running costs are similar (insurance, servicing, warranty) for the V8, the V12 is a bit more to run. I had a mechanical issue with the car when I first got it (approved used) but that was really down to a mistake by an Aston technician, since that was identified and repaired the car has been faultless.
Astons don't have the residuals of Porsche so ownership will be more costly overall.
thelostboy said:
Never driven one but I'd be tempted. The 997 is a nice car, but unless it's a GT3 I think they are somewhat over hyped for where they're valued. Indeed, I would try and drive a GT3 as you will find out just how different they are to your GTS.
A manual V12 Vantage will always be desirable I imagine; all that engine stuffed into a relatively small car. I imagine far more of an event for the weekend.
he should do then he will also realise how the GTS is a far better road car as he don't track his cars :-)A manual V12 Vantage will always be desirable I imagine; all that engine stuffed into a relatively small car. I imagine far more of an event for the weekend.
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