Very unique 996 C2
Discussion
CarreraLightweightRacing said:
You do realise how Rob Dickenson started out right!
Comparing to the Spyder is pointless as it really is a completely different kettle of fish.
I had to google the name. I'll be honest, I think Singer are getting away with it, until recently when they collaborated with Williams for engines, I couldn't see what set them apart from any top end resto mod place. That's another topic though.Comparing to the Spyder is pointless as it really is a completely different kettle of fish.
The comparison isn't pointless to me, I've got a theory on 911's verses Boxsters/Caymans, that the mid engine chassis is superior for handling. With the time, development and quality of parts used on your CLR, would it be able to shake off the Spyder on a twisty B road or tight race circuit? Just a comparison purely on a performance level.
I like what you did where you opened up the arch liners behind the fans, think I might copy that.
Sorry guys, the thread deviation towards the Spyder was nonintentional and if you feel a 80kg difference over the S, bespoke doors, shallower side windows, engine cover, carbon roof, the lightest 19" wheels Porsche have ever made, additional 10BHP with a greater appetite for revs, 20mm lower with fixed rate dampers and stiffer springs (eliminating PASM), thicker anti-roll bars, wider front and rear track, centre of gravity drop of 25mm, the anorexic affliction consuming AC/stereo and all other deemed non essentials plus all the points I raised earlier don't amount to much then fair enough. I see no other car from Porsche since this that has got any where close to this level of focus on being a drivers car. No gimmicks or power just purity for the driver to enjoy. In the words of Richard Meaden:
"Porsche's most evocative new car in years, it connects you to the action like no other mid-engine Porsche this side of a Carrera GT."
The comparison isn't pointless to me, I've got a theory on 911's verses Boxsters/Caymans, that the mid engine chassis is superior for handling. With the time, development and quality of parts used on your CLR, would it be able to shake off the Spyder on a twisty B road or tight race circuit? Just a comparison purely on a performance level.
I like what you did where you opened up the arch liners behind the fans, think I might copy that.Escy I agree the inherent balance of the midship layout is fundamentally a more cohesive design but this is for another thread. By pointless I didn't mean anything about performance between the two, more the character and philosophy. The CLR would be by some margin quicker than the Spyder, think 996TT straight line performance but with no weight to carry through transitions or under braking. It is a quick car but that misses the point of why it exists.
"Porsche's most evocative new car in years, it connects you to the action like no other mid-engine Porsche this side of a Carrera GT."
Escy said:
CarreraLightweightRacing said:
You do realise how Rob Dickenson started out right!
Comparing to the Spyder is pointless as it really is a completely different kettle of fish.
I had to google the name. I'll be honest, I think Singer are getting away with it, until recently when they collaborated with Williams for engines, I couldn't see what set them apart from any top end resto mod place. That's another topic though.Comparing to the Spyder is pointless as it really is a completely different kettle of fish.
The comparison isn't pointless to me, I've got a theory on 911's verses Boxsters/Caymans, that the mid engine chassis is superior for handling. With the time, development and quality of parts used on your CLR, would it be able to shake off the Spyder on a twisty B road or tight race circuit? Just a comparison purely on a performance level.
I like what you did where you opened up the arch liners behind the fans, think I might copy that.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You can fit a battery to a Spyder also so the weight will always be a big gap over a normal 987 and you will never get the Cof G as low. Remember Richards car is the full 80kg saving over a 987.
Mine weighs 1250kg, has 355bhp, 28mm wider front track and 14mm wider rear, with GT3 arms, engine mounts and a few mono balls and the even stiffer R rear arb. It's more Lotus to drive than any Porsche with the engine in the correct place over a 911 and the high up Lotus cars, it’s a very sweet drive.
Very special car and atm very cheap, worth more in parts in the right spec, funny as it sounds.
Thing is only 3 cars were made in light weight spec and only about 5 with pccb's so very few people will ever get to try one let alone own one. And with Richards out of the UK now and mine going nowhere, good luck finding the 3rd one or any with PCCB's going forward.
You can target 1200kg and 365bhp on these, mine will get there one day, just the price goes up while the rewards get less.
Any way we digress , it’s a great car , and today a bargain imo.
Thing is most people don’t like driving and it’s too cheap to show off in....
Richard are you still planning to progress with the business proposition around the 996 CLR?
It's genuinely impressive work & perhaps an offering which offers a range of packages, each building on its predecessor might find a market.
Perhaps something like:
Stage 1 - Suspension work, a/c & ICE delete;
Stage 2 - Engine lightning & inconel exhaust;
Stage 3 - Carbon panels & sound deadening removal.
Colours could be custom, as some people might want to retain the factory look or personalise.
Once you get a critical mass of cars out there -the perception will move from being a modded one-off to being a series-produced offering with the confidence & credibility that inspires.
Tim
It's genuinely impressive work & perhaps an offering which offers a range of packages, each building on its predecessor might find a market.
Perhaps something like:
Stage 1 - Suspension work, a/c & ICE delete;
Stage 2 - Engine lightning & inconel exhaust;
Stage 3 - Carbon panels & sound deadening removal.
Colours could be custom, as some people might want to retain the factory look or personalise.
Once you get a critical mass of cars out there -the perception will move from being a modded one-off to being a series-produced offering with the confidence & credibility that inspires.
Tim
Interesting one this, and obviously not far removed from my interests - the subject of how far one would have to go in order to make a vanilla Carrera drive like a GT3.
Now before going any further - mine is never going to, it's a cab. However, my friend who is collaborating on the engine project bought a C4 shell to start off with, has removed the sound deadening, fitted GT3 suspension arms/uprights/etc, and EXE-TC shocks along with 997 GT3 PCCB's.
(I'm following along with a much less focussed build, which will be similar suspension components, Ohlins R/T shocks, and larger fully floating steel discs on alloy bells with AP callipers).
I think that Martins C4 is going to be technically extremely close to a GT3, and the EXE-TC shocks a significant improvement on what was fitted by Porsche - what's remaining that will separate it from the GT3?
Now before going any further - mine is never going to, it's a cab. However, my friend who is collaborating on the engine project bought a C4 shell to start off with, has removed the sound deadening, fitted GT3 suspension arms/uprights/etc, and EXE-TC shocks along with 997 GT3 PCCB's.
(I'm following along with a much less focussed build, which will be similar suspension components, Ohlins R/T shocks, and larger fully floating steel discs on alloy bells with AP callipers).
I think that Martins C4 is going to be technically extremely close to a GT3, and the EXE-TC shocks a significant improvement on what was fitted by Porsche - what's remaining that will separate it from the GT3?
Dammit said:
Interesting one this, and obviously not far removed from my interests - the subject of how far one would have to go in order to make a vanilla Carrera drive like a GT3.
Now before going any further - mine is never going to, it's a cab. However, my friend who is collaborating on the engine project bought a C4 shell to start off with, has removed the sound deadening, fitted GT3 suspension arms/uprights/etc, and EXE-TC shocks along with 997 GT3 PCCB's.
(I'm following along with a much less focussed build, which will be similar suspension components, Ohlins R/T shocks, and larger fully floating steel discs on alloy bells with AP callipers).
I think that Martins C4 is going to be technically extremely close to a GT3, and the EXE-TC shocks a significant improvement on what was fitted by Porsche - what's remaining that will separate it from the GT3?
Surely the Mezger is what defines a GT3?Now before going any further - mine is never going to, it's a cab. However, my friend who is collaborating on the engine project bought a C4 shell to start off with, has removed the sound deadening, fitted GT3 suspension arms/uprights/etc, and EXE-TC shocks along with 997 GT3 PCCB's.
(I'm following along with a much less focussed build, which will be similar suspension components, Ohlins R/T shocks, and larger fully floating steel discs on alloy bells with AP callipers).
I think that Martins C4 is going to be technically extremely close to a GT3, and the EXE-TC shocks a significant improvement on what was fitted by Porsche - what's remaining that will separate it from the GT3?
Getting a Carrera to handle as well, or better, is not difficult just very expensive & the looks are not unique to the GT3 anyway.
Hi Tim, I looked into this type of system in the past and come up with the idea below (Read vertically, 3 columns of stages). As previously mentioned though, I'm pretty busy with work so still haven't made the transition. One day maybe but to be honest I'm not sure if there is a wide enough market in the 996/997 sector to carve out permanent workflow from it. Just about to head of to Sweden now on a 3200km round roadtrip to pick up the new toy 
anonymous said:
[redacted]
very true, but imo it's also the brakes which make it, the PCCBs are 350mm all round on 996 GT3 6 pot calipers and a bespoke MC, and with reduced weight , the stopping power is mind blowing, I take 10 to 20 yards out of cars on track when I did track it even from Pro's be it GT3 or Cayman R's etc.and the C of G will be lower than a normal car. all the little bits add up, bit like the Cayman R, it's really not a lot of change but it just drove so well.
I have been out with instructions who's eyes pop at my braking points. and most people hold on for dear life. in the Spring I am doing some tests as I bet it will out brake my 991.2 PCCB GT3.
To get performance after market like that would be £10k to do it right.
It's prob why I buy and sell so many cars as after my Exige and this modded Spyder, not a lot really comes close.
Richard, while I can imagine margins being tight - this probably requires a joint venture with someone with an existing facility with under utilised staff & premises.
This would definitely need to be marketed to continental Europe which is a logistically supportable market.
The US only makes sense at the rarified prices which Singer & Ruf are charging - or unless you have an agent there to whom you supply the packages for fitment.
I think market perception of the 996 will improve time. When it's technology starts to be appreciated relatively to the 993 i.e 4 valves per cylinder water coolers v 2 valves per cylinder air-cooled, it will slow grow in stature.
Tim
This would definitely need to be marketed to continental Europe which is a logistically supportable market.
The US only makes sense at the rarified prices which Singer & Ruf are charging - or unless you have an agent there to whom you supply the packages for fitment.
I think market perception of the 996 will improve time. When it's technology starts to be appreciated relatively to the 993 i.e 4 valves per cylinder water coolers v 2 valves per cylinder air-cooled, it will slow grow in stature.
Tim
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You are funny, but makes for a laugh out loud read on a really s
tty day.A 15k leggy car and 5k is so far apart, I have spent £8k to date and it already had the braking package, wheels, shortshift and the 80kg weight saving.
You are in total dream land. But then you would only fit a GT3 MC, some 17” wheels, maybe some pads and say it was the best thing ever !
Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 16th October 19:45
I'd agree with Cmoose in as much as a standard Gen 2 987 3.4S is similar to a Spyder and the dynamics could be replicated for a lot less than the cost of a Spyder.
But, it would still be a modified Gen 2 987 and so the end car wouldn't be worth the cost of the additional parts.
The right spec Spyder would have the wheels, buckets and visual appeal of the rear Spyder deck and be an OEM car the way if left Porsche which is why if you can afford it is a much better long term ownership proposition.
But, it would still be a modified Gen 2 987 and so the end car wouldn't be worth the cost of the additional parts.
The right spec Spyder would have the wheels, buckets and visual appeal of the rear Spyder deck and be an OEM car the way if left Porsche which is why if you can afford it is a much better long term ownership proposition.
IMI A said:
Race between cmoose (Jez) in his 987 v 911R (David) in his 987? 
I was thinking that, but actually that would likely just point out that 19" wheels have more grip that 17" ones, and lap times are not the ultimate arbiter of how rewarding a car is to drive.Maybe timed laps with a control wheelset might answer some of the question, but the majority of how a car feels to drive is not going to be captured with a stop watch.
Dammit said:
IMI A said:
Race between cmoose (Jez) in his 987 v 911R (David) in his 987?
I was thinking that, but actually that would likely just point out that 19" wheels have more grip that 17" ones, and lap times are not the ultimate arbiter of how rewarding a car is to drive.Maybe timed laps with a control wheelset might answer some of the question, but the majority of how a car feels to drive is not going to be captured with a stop watch.
Richard, I think the market opportunity for the 996 CLR & potentially a 997 CLR will arise when GT3's become too valuable to remain trackday warriors & follow the 964RS into the "Collector Car" space.
Granted, many more GT3's have been built that '64RS's, but for the driver who owns a high-end GT3/ GT2 but no longer wants to risk it on track - the CLR may well be an attractive option.
Tim
Granted, many more GT3's have been built that '64RS's, but for the driver who owns a high-end GT3/ GT2 but no longer wants to risk it on track - the CLR may well be an attractive option.
Tim
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