If you are only allowed three engines in a season
Discussion
Adrian W said:
Is a ten place grid drop enough of a penalty for a fourth? It has to be worth turning it up and when it goes bang, drop another one in. I’m surprised teams aren’t doing this.
I think that's what Red Bull have been doing with both Renualt and Honda- get the points and headlines and take the pain if it hurts later in the season.Same for everyone so no problem imo.
Also the top three teams are in theory capable, one way or another, of pushing hard all season and sticking to the maximum of three.
It helps if you have a b-team that you allow to take and push upgrades ahead of the primary team. Let the b-teams unit go bang first.. then figure out how much the primary teams PU's can take..
Also the top three teams are in theory capable, one way or another, of pushing hard all season and sticking to the maximum of three.
It helps if you have a b-team that you allow to take and push upgrades ahead of the primary team. Let the b-teams unit go bang first.. then figure out how much the primary teams PU's can take..
With no restrictions in place there woulld be no reason for the engine manufacturers to develop long-life components, or the fuel and lubricant suppliers to push the boundaries and develop their products in order to improve both performance and reliability.
Without the restrictions the wealthier teams would just have new engines for every qualifying session and race. In the previous turbo era during the late 1980's, qualifying engines would produce anything up to 1500bhp from 1500cc. But not for long.
Without restrictions or penalties the wealthier teams would ratchet up their spending, and the less wealthy teams would either have to match them, or fall further behind, and ultimately go to the wall.
The engine (or power unit) restrictions are in place for a reason, and have played a vital part in keeping ten teams, and twenty cars, on the grid.
Without the restrictions the wealthier teams would just have new engines for every qualifying session and race. In the previous turbo era during the late 1980's, qualifying engines would produce anything up to 1500bhp from 1500cc. But not for long.
Without restrictions or penalties the wealthier teams would ratchet up their spending, and the less wealthy teams would either have to match them, or fall further behind, and ultimately go to the wall.
The engine (or power unit) restrictions are in place for a reason, and have played a vital part in keeping ten teams, and twenty cars, on the grid.
Dermot O'Logical said:
With no restrictions in place there woulld be no reason for the engine manufacturers to develop long-life components, or the fuel and lubricant suppliers to push the boundaries and develop their products in order to improve both performance and reliability.
Without the restrictions the wealthier teams would just have new engines for every qualifying session and race. In the previous turbo era during the late 1980's, qualifying engines would produce anything up to 1500bhp from 1500cc. But not for long.
Without restrictions or penalties the wealthier teams would ratchet up their spending, and the less wealthy teams would either have to match them, or fall further behind, and ultimately go to the wall.
The engine (or power unit) restrictions are in place for a reason, and have played a vital part in keeping ten teams, and twenty cars, on the grid.
The question was regarding the penalties when the restrictions have not worked. Maybe if Restrictions are that important it should be three engines and your out Without the restrictions the wealthier teams would just have new engines for every qualifying session and race. In the previous turbo era during the late 1980's, qualifying engines would produce anything up to 1500bhp from 1500cc. But not for long.
Without restrictions or penalties the wealthier teams would ratchet up their spending, and the less wealthy teams would either have to match them, or fall further behind, and ultimately go to the wall.
The engine (or power unit) restrictions are in place for a reason, and have played a vital part in keeping ten teams, and twenty cars, on the grid.
Gary C said:
Its all a bit crap, like the testing ban. Doesn't save any real money.
Most expensive engine's F1 has ever had !
Let them have as many as they want
That would make it cheaper, would it?Most expensive engine's F1 has ever had !
Let them have as many as they want
Adrian W said:
The question was regarding the penalties when the restrictions have not worked. Maybe if Restrictions are that important it should be three engines and your out
The restrictions and penalties clearly have worked in my opinion, I don’t see anybody throwing grenades in there.HustleRussell said:
Gary C said:
Its all a bit crap, like the testing ban. Doesn't save any real money.
Most expensive engine's F1 has ever had !
Let them have as many as they want
That would make it cheaper, would it?Most expensive engine's F1 has ever had !
Let them have as many as they want
.
Top teams will spend. Even with a cap, they will spend (can you imagine Merc not developing something in their 'high performance road car division' and not fitting it to the F1 engine ?)
Banning testing just meant the top teams spent the money on simulators, CFD etc.
Be quite easy to limit power without restricting engines if you wanted to. We just have had too many races spoiled by grid penalties
Personally, I would like to see unlimited battery storage and deployment but a limit on battery weight reducing each year to drive cell development.
Gary C said:
Top teams will spend. Even with a cap, they will spend (can you imagine Merc not developing something in their 'high performance road car division' and not fitting it to the F1 engine ?)
AMG are struggling to produce a road car based around their F1 engine. The notion that Stuttgart has the skill set to produce tech for F1 is fanciful.See the thread on comparisons between F1 and road cars for further evidence.
Gary C said:
Restricting engines didn't !
Top teams will spend. Even with a cap, they will spend (can you imagine Merc not developing something in their 'high performance road car division' and not fitting it to the F1 engine ?)
Banning testing just meant the top teams spent the money on simulators, CFD etc.
Be quite easy to limit power without restricting engines if you wanted to. We just have had too many races spoiled by grid penalties
Personally, I would like to see unlimited battery storage and deployment but a limit on battery weight reducing each year to drive cell development.
F1 doesn't have anything like the combined budget to effectively drive development of better cells - that one is proving a very tough nut to crack and is already tying up $100bn +. Top teams will spend. Even with a cap, they will spend (can you imagine Merc not developing something in their 'high performance road car division' and not fitting it to the F1 engine ?)
Banning testing just meant the top teams spent the money on simulators, CFD etc.
Be quite easy to limit power without restricting engines if you wanted to. We just have had too many races spoiled by grid penalties
Personally, I would like to see unlimited battery storage and deployment but a limit on battery weight reducing each year to drive cell development.
However I think you're right in that F1 will at some point have to start a transition with power moving away from ICE and towards stored energy in cells, a shift it could make gradually so as to get the audience used to the idea.
As FE is proving though, the current cell technology really isn't up to the job, not at F1 level at least. When solid state batteries are production ready that will change very quickly however. When.. the good news is investment in the technology is ramping up like crazy, which is normally a sign that a breakthrough isn't too far away.
rdjohn said:
Gary C said:
Top teams will spend. Even with a cap, they will spend (can you imagine Merc not developing something in their 'high performance road car division' and not fitting it to the F1 engine ?)
AMG are struggling to produce a road car based around their F1 engine. The notion that Stuttgart has the skill set to produce tech for F1 is fanciful.See the thread on comparisons between F1 and road cars for further evidence.
If there is a budget cap, then the money will be spent around the rules. Dont you think that the 'road car division' might suddenly get F1 engineers working on 'road car' engines that 'oh, look, this works well in our F1 engines'
wont be as obvious as that, but the money will still be spent.
TheDeuce said:
F1 doesn't have anything like the combined budget to effectively drive development of better cells - that one is proving a very tough nut to crack and is already tying up $100bn +.
However I think you're right in that F1 will at some point have to start a transition with power moving away from ICE and towards stored energy in cells, a shift it could make gradually so as to get the audience used to the idea.
As FE is proving though, the current cell technology really isn't up to the job, not at F1 level at least. When solid state batteries are production ready that will change very quickly however. When.. the good news is investment in the technology is ramping up like crazy, which is normally a sign that a breakthrough isn't too far away.
It would be a great place for the manufactures who are working on cells to demonstrate their wares. Maybe they dont need it, but it would showcase things at the very least, get public interest in the technology.However I think you're right in that F1 will at some point have to start a transition with power moving away from ICE and towards stored energy in cells, a shift it could make gradually so as to get the audience used to the idea.
As FE is proving though, the current cell technology really isn't up to the job, not at F1 level at least. When solid state batteries are production ready that will change very quickly however. When.. the good news is investment in the technology is ramping up like crazy, which is normally a sign that a breakthrough isn't too far away.
Gary C said:
It would be a great place for the manufactures who are working on cells to demonstrate their wares. Maybe they dont need it, but it would showcase things at the very least, get public interest in the technology.
It would if they had anything to showcase, so maybe in the not too distant future. The latest I have seen, are all relatively small working models - they're small because they're awkwardly constructed manually as no automated process exists. They also demonstrate the technology working, they prove the principals but a lack of manufacturing precision means the overall packaging is less energy dense than a current gen li-ion cell.Given the unbelievable amount of money flooding into R&D right now there probably are far more advanced pre-production cells behind closed doors, but I would assume they are closely guarded secrets right now, pending patent protection and also to avoid giving competitors a leg up until protection exists. I doubt whatever they have that's functional today would be much use for F1 and even if it was, I doubt they'd want to let it out of the lab for the sake of a little extra marketing.
I'm sounding a bit negative now but I do believe solid state cells will change our world, and specifically for F1..? Well, a solid state all EV F1 car could easily make the same power of the current PU, run an entire GP distance, enjoy better weight distribution and therefore improved mechanical grip and the cars could be smaller too. Those are the sort of advantages that could get a petrol-head fan-base at least slightly open minded about EV racing at the sharp end of the sport. The fact their new smart phones suddenly take just 3 minutes to charge and then last a week will probably help get more people in general open minded about EV cars.
TheDeuce said:
It would if they had anything to showcase, so maybe in the not too distant future. The latest I have seen, are all relatively small working models - they're small because they're awkwardly constructed manually as no automated process exists. They also demonstrate the technology working, they prove the principals but a lack of manufacturing precision means the overall packaging is less energy dense than a current gen li-ion cell.
Given the unbelievable amount of money flooding into R&D right now there probably are far more advanced pre-production cells behind closed doors, but I would assume they are closely guarded secrets right now, pending patent protection and also to avoid giving competitors a leg up until protection exists. I doubt whatever they have that's functional today would be much use for F1 and even if it was, I doubt they'd want to let it out of the lab for the sake of a little extra marketing.
I'm sounding a bit negative now but I do believe solid state cells will change our world, and specifically for F1..? Well, a solid state all EV F1 car could easily make the same power of the current PU, run an entire GP distance, enjoy better weight distribution and therefore improved mechanical grip and the cars could be smaller too. Those are the sort of advantages that could get a petrol-head fan-base at least slightly open minded about EV racing at the sharp end of the sport. The fact their new smart phones suddenly take just 3 minutes to charge and then last a week will probably help get more people in general open minded about EV cars.
interesting... off to read about solid state cells.Given the unbelievable amount of money flooding into R&D right now there probably are far more advanced pre-production cells behind closed doors, but I would assume they are closely guarded secrets right now, pending patent protection and also to avoid giving competitors a leg up until protection exists. I doubt whatever they have that's functional today would be much use for F1 and even if it was, I doubt they'd want to let it out of the lab for the sake of a little extra marketing.
I'm sounding a bit negative now but I do believe solid state cells will change our world, and specifically for F1..? Well, a solid state all EV F1 car could easily make the same power of the current PU, run an entire GP distance, enjoy better weight distribution and therefore improved mechanical grip and the cars could be smaller too. Those are the sort of advantages that could get a petrol-head fan-base at least slightly open minded about EV racing at the sharp end of the sport. The fact their new smart phones suddenly take just 3 minutes to charge and then last a week will probably help get more people in general open minded about EV cars.
Gary C said:
Fanciful ?, you dont get my point.
If there is a budget cap, then the money will be spent around the rules. Dont you think that the 'road car division' might suddenly get F1 engineers working on 'road car' engines that 'oh, look, this works well in our F1 engines'
wont be as obvious as that, but the money will still be spent.
The budget cap doesn't apply to engine development. If there is a budget cap, then the money will be spent around the rules. Dont you think that the 'road car division' might suddenly get F1 engineers working on 'road car' engines that 'oh, look, this works well in our F1 engines'
wont be as obvious as that, but the money will still be spent.
Graveworm said:
Gary C said:
Fanciful ?, you dont get my point.
If there is a budget cap, then the money will be spent around the rules. Dont you think that the 'road car division' might suddenly get F1 engineers working on 'road car' engines that 'oh, look, this works well in our F1 engines'
wont be as obvious as that, but the money will still be spent.
The budget cap doesn't apply to engine development. If there is a budget cap, then the money will be spent around the rules. Dont you think that the 'road car division' might suddenly get F1 engineers working on 'road car' engines that 'oh, look, this works well in our F1 engines'
wont be as obvious as that, but the money will still be spent.
But any cap can/will be worked around.
Limit engines, so they spend a fortune on making them last (which I get is not totally a 'bad' thing apart from its effect on some races, though it has given us the artificial thrill of seeing Leclerc race through the field)
Limit others ?, I cant see the lower teams suddenly getting parity.
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