When will used car prices drop?
Discussion
https://midlandsbusinessrecovery.co.uk/2020/07/02/...
What if I don’t use the money for the stated purpose?
If your company goes into any form of insolvency, the liquidator / administrator will investigate what you’ve used the money for – the IP has a duty to investigate the affairs of insolvent companies, report to the appropriate authorities and take legal action to bring in additional recoveries for the benefit of the creditors.
If he / she considers you have misused the money, he will consider forcing you to reimburse the company using a variety of powers available to him under the Insolvency Act and elsewhere, including:
Misfeasance under the Insolvency Act and breach of duty under the Companies Act (eg a breach of your statutory duty to promote the success of the company)
Wrongful / fraudulent trading
Preference (eg if you pay down a directors’ loan account balance)
Fraud under the Fraud Act – directors cannot hide behind the corporate veil where they cause a company to commit a fraud
And a range of other potential avenues depending on the facts.
But things have changed since I took out the loan…
The BBL came with conditions attached. Sometimes things happen to make it difficult for those conditions to be fulfilled, but that does not give directors the ability to simply use the money as they like, they should take formal advice if they are put in that position, taking and following that advice before they spend the money. Failing to take timely advice from the right professional and simply using the money as you like will not be looked at kindly, ignorance is no excuse.
What if I don’t use the money for the stated purpose?
If your company goes into any form of insolvency, the liquidator / administrator will investigate what you’ve used the money for – the IP has a duty to investigate the affairs of insolvent companies, report to the appropriate authorities and take legal action to bring in additional recoveries for the benefit of the creditors.
If he / she considers you have misused the money, he will consider forcing you to reimburse the company using a variety of powers available to him under the Insolvency Act and elsewhere, including:
Misfeasance under the Insolvency Act and breach of duty under the Companies Act (eg a breach of your statutory duty to promote the success of the company)
Wrongful / fraudulent trading
Preference (eg if you pay down a directors’ loan account balance)
Fraud under the Fraud Act – directors cannot hide behind the corporate veil where they cause a company to commit a fraud
And a range of other potential avenues depending on the facts.
But things have changed since I took out the loan…
The BBL came with conditions attached. Sometimes things happen to make it difficult for those conditions to be fulfilled, but that does not give directors the ability to simply use the money as they like, they should take formal advice if they are put in that position, taking and following that advice before they spend the money. Failing to take timely advice from the right professional and simply using the money as you like will not be looked at kindly, ignorance is no excuse.
I’d bet that anyone who has a real turnover and pays back the loan (maybe just anyone who pays back the loan), will be fine - it won’t matter what they’ve used the money for. (And at 2.5% it’s profitable business for the government, even with first year subsidy).
Worth remembering that they don’t need all the resources in-house to chase down. They may well sell the loans or part of them, at a risk adjusted price, and a third party will then pursue collection and enforcement with glee...
In the end, there will be some out and out fraudsters who will get away with it, including leaving a trial of patsy directors, and also quite a lot of people who thought they wouldn’t have to pay back, but will get a nasty surprise.
Worth remembering that they don’t need all the resources in-house to chase down. They may well sell the loans or part of them, at a risk adjusted price, and a third party will then pursue collection and enforcement with glee...
In the end, there will be some out and out fraudsters who will get away with it, including leaving a trial of patsy directors, and also quite a lot of people who thought they wouldn’t have to pay back, but will get a nasty surprise.
^^^ If only the world was that clear cut and morality prevailed.
See my previous post about a very significant 'temporary' change that allows Directors to trade an insolvent company. That's legal rocket fuel IMO.
You're underestimating companies (and their accountants) ability to play at the margins.
See my previous post about a very significant 'temporary' change that allows Directors to trade an insolvent company. That's legal rocket fuel IMO.
You're underestimating companies (and their accountants) ability to play at the margins.
av185 said:
Actually the HMRCs best snitch will be those incredibly pissed off staff now made redundant while the geezer gaffer swans around in his new shiny ott BBL chariot lol.
BTW, the other trick going on is furloughed staff have continued to work in the background. Say a consultancy just has them doing the back end report writing at home and the non furloughed staff (say the Director) puts their name to the report and handles all email/phone traffic. Zero paper trail there to the furloughed staff members...Then staff members gets a nice wee bonus at end of the year. This is happening.
Edited by Andyoz on Friday 24th July 10:16
Andyoz said:
av185 said:
Actually the HMRCs best snitch will be those incredibly pissed off staff now made redundant while the geezer gaffer swans around in his new shiny ott BBL chariot lol.
BTW, the other trick going on is furloughed staff have continued to work in the background. Say a consultancy just has them doing the back end report writing at home and the non furloughed staff (say the Director) puts their name to the report and handles all email/phone traffic. Zero paper trail there to the furloughed staff members...Then staff members gets a nice wee bonus at end of the year. This is happening.
Edited by Andyoz on Friday 24th July 10:16
WilliamWaiver said:
Sounds like a few posters on here are now s
tting their pants and awaiting the brown envelope from HMRC.
Oh dear, good luck with that one fellas.
Last people you want to try and hoodwink is HMRC
HMRC just need to go through Range Rover dealers list of new PCP loans with an unusually high deposits for starters. Are they still made in the UK...there sine UK jobs saved...maybe they will go softly on them tting their pants and awaiting the brown envelope from HMRC.Oh dear, good luck with that one fellas.
Last people you want to try and hoodwink is HMRC
BTW, I haven't applied for BB loan yet but I will be. It will be paid back on day 364 too...
av185 said:
Andyoz said:
av185 said:
Actually the HMRCs best snitch will be those incredibly pissed off staff now made redundant while the geezer gaffer swans around in his new shiny ott BBL chariot lol.
BTW, the other trick going on is furloughed staff have continued to work in the background. Say a consultancy just has them doing the back end report writing at home and the non furloughed staff (say the Director) puts their name to the report and handles all email/phone traffic. Zero paper trail there to the furloughed staff members...Then staff members gets a nice wee bonus at end of the year. This is happening.
Edited by Andyoz on Friday 24th July 10:16
It will be interesting to see if we have the mother of all recessions next year and HMRC are prepared to put a companies lights out over the BBL...it's all about employment now as Governments have to maintain that to keep the debt Ponzi scheme going
v8ksn said:
https://midlandsbusinessrecovery.co.uk/2020/07/02/...
What if I don’t use the money for the stated purpose?
If your company goes into any form of insolvency, the liquidator / administrator will investigate what you’ve used the money for – the IP has a duty to investigate the affairs of insolvent companies, report to the appropriate authorities and take legal action to bring in additional recoveries for the benefit of the creditors.
If he / she considers you have misused the money, he will consider forcing you to reimburse the company using a variety of powers available to him under the Insolvency Act and elsewhere, including:
Misfeasance under the Insolvency Act and breach of duty under the Companies Act (eg a breach of your statutory duty to promote the success of the company)
Wrongful / fraudulent trading
Preference (eg if you pay down a directors’ loan account balance)
Fraud under the Fraud Act – directors cannot hide behind the corporate veil where they cause a company to commit a fraud
And a range of other potential avenues depending on the facts.
But things have changed since I took out the loan…
The BBL came with conditions attached. Sometimes things happen to make it difficult for those conditions to be fulfilled, but that does not give directors the ability to simply use the money as they like, they should take formal advice if they are put in that position, taking and following that advice before they spend the money. Failing to take timely advice from the right professional and simply using the money as you like will not be looked at kindly, ignorance is no excuse.
Hard to take that link seriously when they've missed one of the most dramatic changes to directors' liabilities in decades - the suspension of the wrongful trading rules.What if I don’t use the money for the stated purpose?
If your company goes into any form of insolvency, the liquidator / administrator will investigate what you’ve used the money for – the IP has a duty to investigate the affairs of insolvent companies, report to the appropriate authorities and take legal action to bring in additional recoveries for the benefit of the creditors.
If he / she considers you have misused the money, he will consider forcing you to reimburse the company using a variety of powers available to him under the Insolvency Act and elsewhere, including:
Misfeasance under the Insolvency Act and breach of duty under the Companies Act (eg a breach of your statutory duty to promote the success of the company)
Wrongful / fraudulent trading
Preference (eg if you pay down a directors’ loan account balance)
Fraud under the Fraud Act – directors cannot hide behind the corporate veil where they cause a company to commit a fraud
And a range of other potential avenues depending on the facts.
But things have changed since I took out the loan…
The BBL came with conditions attached. Sometimes things happen to make it difficult for those conditions to be fulfilled, but that does not give directors the ability to simply use the money as they like, they should take formal advice if they are put in that position, taking and following that advice before they spend the money. Failing to take timely advice from the right professional and simply using the money as you like will not be looked at kindly, ignorance is no excuse.
https://www.clearygottlieb.com/news-and-insights/p...
youngsyr said:
Hard to take that link seriously when they've missed one of the most dramatic changes to directors' liabilities in decades - the suspension of the wrongful trading rules.
https://www.clearygottlieb.com/news-and-insights/p...
I know, I've brought this up twice now and it's a massive thing. UK isn't the only country to do this. It's a Legal minefield now.https://www.clearygottlieb.com/news-and-insights/p...
If you have multiple Ltd Co's then you can 'tank' a few of them over say a year and retain one sole survivor.
Andyoz said:
I know, I've brought this up twice now and it's a massive thing. UK isn't the only country to do this. It's a Legal minefield now.
If you have multiple Ltd Co's then you can 'tank' a few of them over say a year and retain one sole survivor.
I know of instances where individuals with four LTD companies have applied for £50K BBL loans on all of them..Translates to £200K interest free loan for one year, after that i suspect they'll fold three of them and run off into the sunset with £200K free cash tax free..If you have multiple Ltd Co's then you can 'tank' a few of them over say a year and retain one sole survivor.
These are the people the IR need to catch however i suspect they won't bother due to the aforementioned legal loopholes.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It's hard to know but everything is very fluid at the moment. I don't think they will pull it before Nov cutoff date (they will more than likely extend it) but I wanted to leave it until the last moment to apply.If they think there is a hint of political scandal coming due to it (there is!) things might change.
Taffy66 said:
I know of instances where individuals with four LTD companies have applied for £50K BBL loans on all of them..Translates to £200K interest free loan for one year, after that i suspect they'll fold three of them and run off into the sunset with £200K free cash tax free..
These are the people the IR need to catch however i suspect they won't bother due to the aforementioned legal loopholes.
One issue is compared to 'normal' times, HMRC may well be chasing down fraud several orders of magnitude higher than normal, i.e. 100 times or more. So chasing it will just take longer. These are the people the IR need to catch however i suspect they won't bother due to the aforementioned legal loopholes.
The thing is, a certain percentage of the population react in immoral ways to the incentives that are put in front of them. I can't recall a time when so much money has been handed out WITH NO CHECKS OR RISK ASSESSMENT.
Even when bank staff are flagging up issues, they appear to be getting brushed under the carpet by those higher up.
Edited by Andyoz on Friday 24th July 13:34
Andyoz said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It's hard to know but everything is very fluid at the moment. I don't think they will pull it before Nov cutoff date (they will more than likely extend it) but I wanted to leave it until the last moment to apply.If they think there is a hint of political scandal coming due to it (there is!) things might change.
Andyoz said:
youngsyr said:
Hard to take that link seriously when they've missed one of the most dramatic changes to directors' liabilities in decades - the suspension of the wrongful trading rules.
https://www.clearygottlieb.com/news-and-insights/p...
I know, I've brought this up twice now and it's a massive thing. UK isn't the only country to do this. It's a Legal minefield now.https://www.clearygottlieb.com/news-and-insights/p...
If you have multiple Ltd Co's then you can 'tank' a few of them over say a year and retain one sole survivor.
youngsyr said:
Don't leave it to long if you're going to apply - some banks are taking months to process the applications. You wouldn't want to risk missing the deadline because of the bank.
That's interesting, our local ones here seem to be doing it within days according to my accountant. I think that's part of the problem...seven questions and in she comes a few days later !! youngsyr said:
I believe the suspension was initially for 3 months from 1 March, do you know if it's been extended?
Was trying to find out and no luck yet. Somehow I bet it has been extended. I know Australia went for a 6 month suspension off the bat. How can you stop and start this thing. So a company is trading insolvent until end of May and then the suspension lapses and they can then throw the book at the Directors if they keep trading in June? It's one of many Jeannies they will be trying to put back in the bottle. I was at the receiving end of company insolvencies in the last recession - the dreaded 'Unsecured Creditors' letters through the letter box - it's not pleasant and it's coming once government life support ends.
Edited by Andyoz on Friday 24th July 13:40
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