GT3 / 3RS / Touring

[993rsr]

964Cup said:

Reluctant to get involved with handbags at dawn, but...here's my twopenn'orth.

A proper manual is more involving on the road. There is great pleasure in a well-executed shift, and a stronger sense of connection. The critical points are:

• One is rarely driving a road one knows as intimately as one does a track, so one is not seeking tenths.
• By the same token, the deliberation needed to choose a manual gear is part of decision making about cornering speed and strategy.
• If, on the road, one is driving fast enough that one risks missing a shift or upsetting the balance of the car, one is driving too fast.

A paddle-shift box, however, is better on the track.

• No corner is a surprise. Braking, gear changes are at predetermined points. One is absolutely seeking tenths.
• The ability to change gear without upsetting the balance of the car is of significant benefit - consider Woodcote at Silverstone, which is a mid-corner upshift in my 964RS while at the limit of grip. It is necessary to short-shift or one risks an unpleasant moment.
• Left-foot braking both provides an opportunity to save time and also a change in technique in balancing the car; this is not possible with a manual box.

You're seeking tenths on a track day?

[isaldiri]

993rsr said:

964Cup said:

Reluctant to get involved with handbags at dawn, but...here's my twopenn'orth.

A proper manual is more involving on the road. There is great pleasure in a well-executed shift, and a stronger sense of connection. The critical points are:

• One is rarely driving a road one knows as intimately as one does a track, so one is not seeking tenths.
• By the same token, the deliberation needed to choose a manual gear is part of decision making about cornering speed and strategy.
• If, on the road, one is driving fast enough that one risks missing a shift or upsetting the balance of the car, one is driving too fast.

A paddle-shift box, however, is better on the track.

• No corner is a surprise. Braking, gear changes are at predetermined points. One is absolutely seeking tenths.
• The ability to change gear without upsetting the balance of the car is of significant benefit - consider Woodcote at Silverstone, which is a mid-corner upshift in my 964RS while at the limit of grip. It is necessary to short-shift or one risks an unpleasant moment.
• Left-foot braking both provides an opportunity to save time and also a change in technique in balancing the car; this is not possible with a manual box.

You're seeking tenths on a track day?

Amateur. Should be looking for hundredths not merely tenths.... that pole position on a trackday is really highly contested you know!

[964Cup]

993rsr said:

You're seeking tenths on a track day?

I fear you've not been reading this thread.

Yes.

That's why I just bought a 991GT3 RS to use in place of my 964RS. It's also why I'm quite selective about which track days I do.

And why I'll probably end up racing again, despite my best intentions.

[Dr S]

964Cup said:

And why I'll probably end up racing again, despite my best intentions.

Here is a man talking sense

[Melvynr]

Porsche911R said:

he shook his head as he knew he could do better and that's the joy of leaning a skill in a car you can make errors in.
the 991.2 Manual is a great learning tool for a noob as YES you can use the auto blip while learning and then turn it off.
A great system. In a PDK you just sit there like a lemon ,I don't get why you would not want to learn a skill or get involved in driving unless you were st at it. I am st on a bike and would want Gyro's ABS etc but I admit it, that's the difference here it seems.

I have posted many track vids.

Are you serious, you dont think anyone can drive a manual car just because they have an automatic?stunning.
Use the auto blip while learning, learning to do what, dip the fooken clutch.
The only difference here is your unnatural fascination with a manual gearbox, thinking no one can use one. People pick what they want and enjoy there choice, had it not been for the Yanks, you would not have got the manual 991.2, be thankful to them that you can enjoy your car as you see fit and leave the rest with PDK to enjoy there's without trying to belittle them.

[Melvynr]

993rsr said:

You're seeking tenths on a track day?

Edit, wrong poster

[Melvynr]

964Cup said:

Reluctant to get involved with handbags at dawn, but...here's my twopenn'orth.

A proper manual is more involving on the road. There is great pleasure in a well-executed shift, and a stronger sense of connection. The critical points are:

• One is rarely driving a road one knows as intimately as one does a track, so one is not seeking tenths.
• By the same token, the deliberation needed to choose a manual gear is part of decision making about cornering speed and strategy.
• If, on the road, one is driving fast enough that one risks missing a shift or upsetting the balance of the car, one is driving too fast.

A paddle-shift box, however, is better on the track.

• No corner is a surprise. Braking, gear changes are at predetermined points. One is absolutely seeking tenths.
• The ability to change gear without upsetting the balance of the car is of significant benefit - consider Woodcote at Silverstone, which is a mid-corner upshift in my 964RS while at the limit of grip. It is necessary to short-shift or one risks an unpleasant moment.
• Left-foot braking both provides an opportunity to save time and also a change in technique in balancing the car; this is not possible with a manual box.

Genuine question

Why can you not left foot brake in a manual, lots of guys do.Below is my fav footwork vid.


https://youtu.be/CaQNCR3qXzQ

[964Cup]

Melvynr said:

Genuine question

Why can you not left foot brake in a manual, lots of guys do.Below is my fav footwork vid.


https://youtu.be/CaQNCR3qXzQ

Possibly I just lack talent. I suppose it also depends on your driving style - whether you do all your braking, and then change to the right gear for the corner, or change down as you brake. I do the latter, so in a manual I need to be able to operate the clutch while retaining pressure on the brake pedal.

I have left foot braked occasionally in a manual to balance the car, but that's light touches while staying in the same gear and often with some throttle. And I don't think I've ever done it in a 911 - mostly in FWD turbos to neutralise understeer while keeping the boost up.

[Melvynr]

964Cup said:

Possibly I just lack talent. I suppose it also depends on your driving style - whether you do all your braking, and then change to the right gear for the corner, or change down as you brake. I do the latter, so in a manual I need to be able to operate the clutch while retaining pressure on the brake pedal.

I have left foot braked occasionally in a manual to balance the car, but that's light touches while staying in the same gear and often with some throttle. And I don't think I've ever done it in a 911 - mostly in FWD turbos to neutralise understeer while keeping the boost up.

I got you now and makes sence, looked like the guy in vid was only doing it when he knew he didnt need a gear.

Big day for you tomorrow, hope you have a fab day.

[hunter 66]

964Cup said:

Possibly I just lack talent. I suppose it also depends on your driving style - whether you do all your braking, and then change to the right gear for the corner, or change down as you brake. I do the latter, so in a manual I need to be able to operate the clutch while retaining pressure on the brake pedal.

I have left foot braked occasionally in a manual to balance the car, but that's light touches while staying in the same gear and often with some throttle. And I don't think I've ever done it in a 911 - mostly in FWD turbos to neutralise understeer while keeping the boost up.

Yes Did most of my racing in 993 GT2R's so keeping boost up mid corner is always a challenge and steering with the throttle to overcome the understeer, still think the best manual box work is the "mikerockenfeller" Porsche 996 RS at Sebring . .

[964Cup]

Well, the question in this thread has at least now been answered. Here's the new addition, with some of its stablemates to show the evolution of the breed:




First impressions?

The suspension is noisy - much squeaking from the valves over bumps - but it is the competition version of the KW kit. I may change it for the clubsport version, which will also work with the front lift.

Not having a front lift is a pain. I took the splitter off the moment I tried to reverse into our garage. It went back in, but I've ordered some ramps for the time being.

Not a torque-monster - you can tell that all the power is way up the rev range.

At the top end, though, the engine is quite something.

It stops extremely well (on STs, not PCCB) and seems to go round corners as well as I can tell on B-roads without being antisocial.

I'm still running more than 3 degrees of camber; the suspension has been raised a bit (but see above re: splitter) and the tyres are slightly overpressure to get a bit more contact patch with the camber where it is. So it's not really a road car, as expected. It's perfectly driveable, but not especially comfortable and quite camber and tramline sensitive. I suspect they're much better on stock suspension, but more compromised on circuit as a result.

I won't really know more until next week - Spa will tell me if I've made the right decision.

[Cheib]

Very nice ! Congrats. RPM are only 20 mins from me.

[Yellow491]

Looks great,sure it will be the right decision,sounds a good spec with the kw and st already on the car?
Rpm cant get much better guidance on 911 Set up with there knowledgable consultant, they had a few cars at our rs day at oulton Last march all going well.
Enjoy spa

[hunter 66]

[quote=Yellow491]Looks great,sure it will be the right decision,sounds a good spec with the kw and st already on the car?
Rpm cant get much better guidance on 911 Set up with there knowledgable consultant, they had a few cars at our rs day at oulton Last march all going well.
Enjoy spa[/quote
Hi Yellow , you had your set up done ??? Still to get mine done .... may try on Friday

[ChrisW.]

I've never been able to get to grips with left foot braking ... I just don't have the fine control that I feel I would need ...

I can understand this to keep the turbos spooled, but is it intended to have both the benefit of trail braking and power-on overseer ?

[964Cup]

ChrisW. said:

I've never been able to get to grips with left foot braking ... I just don't have the fine control that I feel I would need ...

I can understand this to keep the turbos spooled, but is it intended to have both the benefit of trail braking and power-on overseer ?

Two reasons to left-foot brake:

1. No need to move either foot (in a two-pedal car) so both safer and faster, as you save the hundredths per corner where you switch from brake to accelerator and back again.

2. With practice you can use light touches on the brake to adjust the attitude of the car while staying on the throttle, or backing off without completely backing out. This can keep turbos spooled, but it can also be more subtle than coming off the throttle.

I've done the latter in three-pedal cars, notably in underpowered FWD cars where you can dial out some understeer by finessing the brake while keeping the throttle buried.

[hunter 66]

Hard in a big power RWD with 3 pedals .... easier to use the right pedal to steer the car

[Yellow491]

hunter 66]ellow491 said:

Looks great,sure it will be the right decision,sounds a good spec with the kw and st already on the car?
Rpm cant get much better guidance on 911 Set up with there knowledgable consultant, they had a few cars at our rs day at oulton Last march all going well.
Enjoy spa[/quote
Hi Yellow , you had your set up done ??? Still to get mine done .... may try on Friday

No,i checked my car out yesterday and done a oil filter change ready for silverstone,the car has 1.5 deg all round,rake is ok ish and toes are fine,i dont want to spoil the road manners yet,so will see what the car is like on the 5th.I have however put the wing on max and removed the front trimmers as recommended by porsche to keep the balance, we will see
The dunlops looks to be worse than cups in the wet with the tread pattern!

[Porsche911R]

ChrisW. said:

I've never been able to get to grips with left foot braking ... I just don't have the fine control that I feel I would need ...

I can understand this to keep the turbos spooled, but is it intended to have both the benefit of trail braking and power-on overseer ?

I also find it impossible in a 3 pedal car to left foot brake to any level which would be an advantage, but on a PDK car very easy to to just have a foot on each pedal.
But I don’t call that left foot braking if you get what I mean.

Again to drive a manual car is very demanding and takes a lot more planning, skill and effort and thus far more rewarding as a hobby imo. It's not just dipping a clutch like some one has stated.
Quite a lot has to be done pre corner in a manual car vs a automatic car.

I am much faster driving an auto and I think that's why people do like them today, far easier to go fast with little effort or thought processing.

You just choose stop or go and every thing else is done for you if you know the lines.
While the USA love manuals, here in the UK not so much.

Threshold braking is imo the next main skill to practice and master for improved lap times, be it manual or PDK cars.

Something very over looked but imo the most important skill which sets apart the faster driver from the ave driver.

Edited by Porsche911R on Sunday 21st June 11:21

[964Cup]

Porsche911R said:

I also find it impossible in a 3 pedal car to left foot brake to any level which would be an advantage, but on a PDK car very easy to to just have a foot on each pedal.
But I don’t call that left foot braking if you get what I mean.

Again to drive a manual car is very demanding and takes a lot more planning, skill and effort and thus far more rewarding as a hobby imo. It's not just dipping a clutch like some one has stated.
Quite a lot has to be done pre corner in a manual car vs a automatic car.

I am much faster driving an auto and I think that's why people do like them today, far easier to go fast with little effort or thought processing.

You just choose stop or go and every thing else is done for you if you know the lines.
While the USA love manuals, here in the UK not so much.

Threshold braking is imo the next main skill to practice and master for improved lap times, be it manual or PDK cars.

Something very over looked but imo the most important skill which sets apart the faster driver from the ave driver.

Edited by Porsche911R on Sunday 21st June 11:21

It's easier to learn if you don't have ABS, IMO. I learned to cadence brake in a 3.2 Carrera, then had to re-learn when we deleted the ABS from my Cup car. I found it relatively easy to find the threshold coming back to it after a long hiatus in my 964RS; it will be interesting to see if I can make the transition to the new car, which will have *much* higher braking limits (and cornering limits). I suspect I will be a good while getting up to speed.