GT3 / 3RS / Touring
Discussion
964Cup said:
Steve Rance said:
Keep your 964 and buy a 996/7 cup. Much quicker that a GT3, half the price and you don’t have to worry about it when you stick in in the Armco
Sure, but I can't drive it to the circuit. Means I need a trailer, and a tow car, and really at least one engineer along to help - and I have to store everything somewhere. Plus it'll be at most a 100-hour motor and gearbox, so very large rebuild costs every couple of years at best, and you need at least 2 sets of wheels, and you'll get through a set of slicks every four days at best (remember you do, or can do, way more time on circuit on track days than you can racing). I don't know if the Cup cars need race fuel these days, but that's about £3 a litre. And so on, and so forth.I can't see the point of spending all the money necessary to run a proper race car without actually going racing. I want to drive the car to the circuit, do some laps, and then drive home again, which is exactly what I do with the 964RS. I just want to go somewhat faster.
Also, by and large TDOs aren't super keen on full-race cars mixing it with the punters. Even RMA has some caution here - Graham is another of the guilty crew who sent me off racing the first time around. The speed differences, especially in braking and cornering, are so huge that you either terrify other drivers or lead them to the scene of the accident when they try to brake where you're braking and find out they can't.
The problem now is that the consensus seems to be a .2 GT3RS. That's pretty much the same money as a Touring. I really really like the Touring. I very nearly bought one at the start of the year, then got the i8 (and £100k of change) instead in a fit of eco-consciousness (and, frankly, the sense that I already had enough Porsches). I fear I'm now realising that there is in fact no such thing as enough Porsches.
I wonder what strings I'd need to pull to get on the list for a 992.1 Touring? The GT3 is due for launch fairly soon, isn't it, and is now thought to have the same motor as the 991.2 RS?
Otherwise it's a choice between something like this: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/202... and something like this: https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
First world problems.
CorrosionInhibitor said:
With the greatest respect GT silver .2rs ain’t worth that now sorry ..2018 8k cars avail at <£165k.
Where? I can't find a .2 with PCCB, lift, clubsport and 918 chairs at that money anywhere I looked. Cheapest '18 or later 3RS on AT is £173k from an indie. I've also not tried negotiating with anyone yet, granted.I can also only find three properly-specced Tourings in play at the moment for anything resembling sensible money - the blue car I posted, a silver car at OPC Portsmouth and a white one from an indie I've never heard of. Only actual race cars, cars built before 1970 or French cars are allowed to be white, so that leaves two, which is hardly a buyer's market... The other two of the five total for sale on AT right now are a rather nice-looking and grey private sale, but that's on steels, and Knowlhill's comedy £200k red one. The white and grey cars at least have slightly more realistic pricing - I've never felt that the Touring should command the premium it does, but the market has so far proved me wrong. I'm really surprised no one has come up with a conversion kit for normal GT3s - it can't be that hard, can it?
Still can't decide. Suspect whichever one I buy, I'll wish I'd bought the other one. The Touring is arguably cheaper in man maths terms, since I'll chop in the i8 (at the consequence on enormous wrath from SWMBO, since I only bought it in January), but the 3RS is more purposeful.
964Cup said:
Where? I can't find a .2 with PCCB, lift, clubsport and 918 chairs at that money anywhere I looked. Cheapest '18 or later 3RS on AT is £173k from an indie. I've also not tried negotiating with anyone yet, granted.
I can also only find three properly-specced Tourings in play at the moment for anything resembling sensible money - the blue car I posted, a silver car at OPC Portsmouth and a white one from an indie I've never heard of. Only actual race cars, cars built before 1970 or French cars are allowed to be white, so that leaves two, which is hardly a buyer's market... The other two of the five total for sale on AT right now are a rather nice-looking and grey private sale, but that's on steels, and Knowlhill's comedy £200k red one. The white and grey cars at least have slightly more realistic pricing - I've never felt that the Touring should command the premium it does, but the market has so far proved me wrong. I'm really surprised no one has come up with a conversion kit for normal GT3s - it can't be that hard, can it?
Still can't decide. Suspect whichever one I buy, I'll wish I'd bought the other one. The Touring is arguably cheaper in man maths terms, since I'll chop in the i8 (at the consequence on enormous wrath from SWMBO, since I only bought it in January), but the 3RS is more purposeful.
LHD an option for you opens up more cars? Plus you get a 90l tank optionI can also only find three properly-specced Tourings in play at the moment for anything resembling sensible money - the blue car I posted, a silver car at OPC Portsmouth and a white one from an indie I've never heard of. Only actual race cars, cars built before 1970 or French cars are allowed to be white, so that leaves two, which is hardly a buyer's market... The other two of the five total for sale on AT right now are a rather nice-looking and grey private sale, but that's on steels, and Knowlhill's comedy £200k red one. The white and grey cars at least have slightly more realistic pricing - I've never felt that the Touring should command the premium it does, but the market has so far proved me wrong. I'm really surprised no one has come up with a conversion kit for normal GT3s - it can't be that hard, can it?
Still can't decide. Suspect whichever one I buy, I'll wish I'd bought the other one. The Touring is arguably cheaper in man maths terms, since I'll chop in the i8 (at the consequence on enormous wrath from SWMBO, since I only bought it in January), but the 3RS is more purposeful.
993rsr said:
LHD an option for you opens up more cars? Plus you get a 90l tank option
For a 3RS? Definitely - in fact one of the cars I'm considering is the del. miles LHD purple one at JZM (991.1). For a Touring, no. Although I do most of my long-distance driving on the continent, so it would make practical sense, I think it'll hit resale too badly (especially if I look to trade it against a 992 GT3, e.g.).
I've imported cars before, but with GBP so weak, I'm assuming it's not worth it unless the European market takes a bath.
964Cup said:
For a 3RS? Definitely - in fact one of the cars I'm considering is the del. miles LHD purple one at JZM (991.1).
For a Touring, no. Although I do most of my long-distance driving on the continent, so it would make practical sense, I think it'll hit resale too badly (especially if I look to trade it against a 992 GT3, e.g.).
I've imported cars before, but with GBP so weak, I'm assuming it's not worth it unless the European market takes a bath.
For a Touring, no. Although I do most of my long-distance driving on the continent, so it would make practical sense, I think it'll hit resale too badly (especially if I look to trade it against a 992 GT3, e.g.).
I've imported cars before, but with GBP so weak, I'm assuming it's not worth it unless the European market takes a bath.
Touring’s around £30-£35k cheaper in Germany I found.
None of the ones I could see had chairs, and a lot of them are on steel brakes. Steels may well be the right choice on cost grounds for lots of track work, but I think PCCB is one of the "must-have" options for future resale. Once you get up to "proper" spec, from what I can see, you're into Euro pricing = GBP pricing, so it's only the exchange difference (about 10% at the moment). I don't know enough about the warranty situation on nearly-new LHD cars - presumably a UK dealer will be able to renew the warranty (I know they have to honour it, having had my UK 997 Turbo fixed under warranty in France a while back) - the obvious hassle with importing is that although in theory you have some redress against the supplying dealer, it's too tedious to use it unless the car's a complete lemon.
I can't decide if the Touring is a proper future classic (if there even will be such things) or just a peculiar market reaction to people only realising how cool a no-cost option was after production had finished.
And anyway, I thought I was buying a 991.2GT3RS? Decisions, decisions. Those don't seem to be any cheaper in the Fatherland either - the cheap ones are again on steels with sports seats, not 918 buckets.
It feels like buying a 246 Dino back in the day - "chairs and flares, mate?"
I can't decide if the Touring is a proper future classic (if there even will be such things) or just a peculiar market reaction to people only realising how cool a no-cost option was after production had finished.
And anyway, I thought I was buying a 991.2GT3RS? Decisions, decisions. Those don't seem to be any cheaper in the Fatherland either - the cheap ones are again on steels with sports seats, not 918 buckets.
It feels like buying a 246 Dino back in the day - "chairs and flares, mate?"
Find an OPC that'll allocate you a slot for a 992.1 Touring in return for buying a 991 gt car (ideally 991.1 GT3 with 2yrs warranty for circa £100k to fill the gap) from their current used stock. This time last year they'd of shrugged their shoulders at the proposal but they might be willing to listen now..
964Cup said:
None of the ones I could see had chairs, and a lot of them are on steel brakes. Steels may well be the right choice on cost grounds for lots of track work, but I think PCCB is one of the "must-have" options for future resale. Once you get up to "proper" spec, from what I can see, you're into Euro pricing = GBP pricing, so it's only the exchange difference (about 10% at the moment). I don't know enough about the warranty situation on nearly-new LHD cars - presumably a UK dealer will be able to renew the warranty (I know they have to honour it, having had my UK 997 Turbo fixed under warranty in France a while back) - the obvious hassle with importing is that although in theory you have some redress against the supplying dealer, it's too tedious to use it unless the car's a complete lemon.
I can't decide if the Touring is a proper future classic (if there even will be such things) or just a peculiar market reaction to people only realising how cool a no-cost option was after production had finished.
And anyway, I thought I was buying a 991.2GT3RS? Decisions, decisions. Those don't seem to be any cheaper in the Fatherland either - the cheap ones are again on steels with sports seats, not 918 buckets.
It feels like buying a 246 Dino back in the day - "chairs and flares, mate?"
They are there but unusual . I paid £145k for a lhd touring 5k miles, PCCB, 918 seats Extended leather Bose in black with no lift (my ideal spec) took 6 months to find it. Whether it’s a future classic who knows but for me it held more appeal than a 991.2 RS due to its under the radar looks and manual box. I can't decide if the Touring is a proper future classic (if there even will be such things) or just a peculiar market reaction to people only realising how cool a no-cost option was after production had finished.
And anyway, I thought I was buying a 991.2GT3RS? Decisions, decisions. Those don't seem to be any cheaper in the Fatherland either - the cheap ones are again on steels with sports seats, not 918 buckets.
It feels like buying a 246 Dino back in the day - "chairs and flares, mate?"
993rsr said:
I went from a 991.1 GT3RS that I had for two and a bit years from new and maybe 20 track days to a Touring with 5k KLM’s both LHD.
I was really impressed with the RS great car for the sort of thing you have planned and I did around 10k miles over the ownership period.
After considering a 991.2 GT3RS and doing 5k in my CGT last year I realised I had to have a manual, whilst the PDK is excellent personally manual has the edge.
Rather than a 2 GT3 I went for a Touring, love the subtle looks, the manual and the 9k motor. As FS says is you can peddle it will be faster than most stuff on track and 95% of folks think it’s a base Carrera which for me is an added bonus.
Does look special 993 rsr , touring better sideways as wellI was really impressed with the RS great car for the sort of thing you have planned and I did around 10k miles over the ownership period.
After considering a 991.2 GT3RS and doing 5k in my CGT last year I realised I had to have a manual, whilst the PDK is excellent personally manual has the edge.
Rather than a 2 GT3 I went for a Touring, love the subtle looks, the manual and the 9k motor. As FS says is you can peddle it will be faster than most stuff on track and 95% of folks think it’s a base Carrera which for me is an added bonus.
993rsr said:
They are there but unusual . I paid £145k for a lhd touring 5k miles, PCCB, 918 seats Extended leather Bose in black with no lift (my ideal spec) took 6 months to find it. Whether it’s a future classic who knows but for me it held more appeal than a 991.2 RS due to its under the radar looks and manual box.
Looks mega mate, same color scheme as my previous 991.2 GT3. Might be the angle but Yours looks lowered.
Lovely RS, miss mine deeply.
On the Touring front, really fab cars, fast as most things on track and does definitely dip under the radar as far as most people are concerned. Nowhere near as much interest as my prev 997.2 GT3.
As far as Frequent 600 mile road trips to France are concerned, rather you than me! The car is just so noisy at anything over 60mph - much more so than I expected or my prev GT3.
Given what you’re looking for, keep the i8, add 991RS, either gen should fit your bill I reckon. Lovely problem to solve!
On the Touring front, really fab cars, fast as most things on track and does definitely dip under the radar as far as most people are concerned. Nowhere near as much interest as my prev 997.2 GT3.
As far as Frequent 600 mile road trips to France are concerned, rather you than me! The car is just so noisy at anything over 60mph - much more so than I expected or my prev GT3.
Given what you’re looking for, keep the i8, add 991RS, either gen should fit your bill I reckon. Lovely problem to solve!
hunter 66 said:
993rsr said:
I went from a 991.1 GT3RS that I had for two and a bit years from new and maybe 20 track days to a Touring with 5k KLM’s both LHD.
I was really impressed with the RS great car for the sort of thing you have planned and I did around 10k miles over the ownership period.
After considering a 991.2 GT3RS and doing 5k in my CGT last year I realised I had to have a manual, whilst the PDK is excellent personally manual has the edge.
Rather than a 2 GT3 I went for a Touring, love the subtle looks, the manual and the 9k motor. As FS says is you can peddle it will be faster than most stuff on track and 95% of folks think it’s a base Carrera which for me is an added bonus.
Does look special 993 rsr , touring better sideways as wellI was really impressed with the RS great car for the sort of thing you have planned and I did around 10k miles over the ownership period.
After considering a 991.2 GT3RS and doing 5k in my CGT last year I realised I had to have a manual, whilst the PDK is excellent personally manual has the edge.
Rather than a 2 GT3 I went for a Touring, love the subtle looks, the manual and the 9k motor. As FS says is you can peddle it will be faster than most stuff on track and 95% of folks think it’s a base Carrera which for me is an added bonus.
964Cup said:
Sure, but I can't drive it to the circuit. Means I need a trailer, and a tow car, and really at least one engineer along to help - and I have to store everything somewhere. Plus it'll be at most a 100-hour motor and gearbox, so very large rebuild costs every couple of years at best, and you need at least 2 sets of wheels, and you'll get through a set of slicks every four days at best (remember you do, or can do, way more time on circuit on track days than you can racing). I don't know if the Cup cars need race fuel these days, but that's about £3 a litre. And so on, and so forth.
I can't see the point of spending all the money necessary to run a proper race car without actually going racing. I want to drive the car to the circuit, do some laps, and then drive home again, which is exactly what I do with the 964RS. I just want to go somewhat faster.
Also, by and large TDOs aren't super keen on full-race cars mixing it with the punters. Even RMA has some caution here - Graham is another of the guilty crew who sent me off racing the first time around. The speed differences, especially in braking and cornering, are so huge that you either terrify other drivers or lead them to the scene of the accident when they try to brake where you're braking and find out they can't.
The problem now is that the consensus seems to be a .2 GT3RS. That's pretty much the same money as a Touring. I really really like the Touring. I very nearly bought one at the start of the year, then got the i8 (and £100k of change) instead in a fit of eco-consciousness (and, frankly, the sense that I already had enough Porsches). I fear I'm now realising that there is in fact no such thing as enough Porsches.
I wonder what strings I'd need to pull to get on the list for a 992.1 Touring? The GT3 is due for launch fairly soon, isn't it, and is now thought to have the same motor as the 991.2 RS?
Otherwise it's a choice between something like this: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/202... and something like this: https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
First world problems.
I’ve had same discussion with myself...and shouldn’t say it here, but 3RS are relatively unsatisfying to drive, if you’ve raced something properly. Remember the first time, thinking that was fast, but something is missing.I can't see the point of spending all the money necessary to run a proper race car without actually going racing. I want to drive the car to the circuit, do some laps, and then drive home again, which is exactly what I do with the 964RS. I just want to go somewhat faster.
Also, by and large TDOs aren't super keen on full-race cars mixing it with the punters. Even RMA has some caution here - Graham is another of the guilty crew who sent me off racing the first time around. The speed differences, especially in braking and cornering, are so huge that you either terrify other drivers or lead them to the scene of the accident when they try to brake where you're braking and find out they can't.
The problem now is that the consensus seems to be a .2 GT3RS. That's pretty much the same money as a Touring. I really really like the Touring. I very nearly bought one at the start of the year, then got the i8 (and £100k of change) instead in a fit of eco-consciousness (and, frankly, the sense that I already had enough Porsches). I fear I'm now realising that there is in fact no such thing as enough Porsches.
I wonder what strings I'd need to pull to get on the list for a 992.1 Touring? The GT3 is due for launch fairly soon, isn't it, and is now thought to have the same motor as the 991.2 RS?
Otherwise it's a choice between something like this: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/202... and something like this: https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
First world problems.
But, totally agree that it’s better not to take TDs very seriously and for those I don’t want to do anything but arrive, drive, and drive home.
Manual does add something to it, and at least involves you a bit more, and sensible fun can be had with friends in PDK RS. The Touring 100% looks the best to me, but the price gap to GT3 manual makes no sense at all - it’s a trim level, not a different car. Is it really worth paying all that extra, just to lose the wing?
Best bang for buck in a road car and most interesting to drive/track, will be a manual .2GT3, (for extra feel, fit it with Manthey/KW suspension and disconnect the PASM).
2mpete said:
Lovely RS, miss mine deeply.
On the Touring front, really fab cars, fast as most things on track and does definitely dip under the radar as far as most people are concerned. Nowhere near as much interest as my prev 997.2 GT3.
As far as Frequent 600 mile road trips to France are concerned, rather you than me! The car is just so noisy at anything over 60mph - much more so than I expected or my prev GT3.
Given what you’re looking for, keep the i8, add 991RS, either gen should fit your bill I reckon. Lovely problem to solve!
That's very useful, thanks. I've not driven a Touring. We did 1,000s of European miles in my old 993RS Touring, but we were younger then, and I think the 993, in Touring trim, was less extreme. Still the best car I've ever owned, though, and the only one I really shouldn't have sold. Had a look at them when I bought the 964, and couldn't believe how expensive they are now.On the Touring front, really fab cars, fast as most things on track and does definitely dip under the radar as far as most people are concerned. Nowhere near as much interest as my prev 997.2 GT3.
As far as Frequent 600 mile road trips to France are concerned, rather you than me! The car is just so noisy at anything over 60mph - much more so than I expected or my prev GT3.
Given what you’re looking for, keep the i8, add 991RS, either gen should fit your bill I reckon. Lovely problem to solve!
If the 991 Touring isn't actually a usable proposition for touring (and I certainly wouldn't want to do anything of the sort in the 964RS) then I think you're right - do other 991 Touring owners agree?
Then it's the choice between a manual GT3 or a .1 or .2 RS with unavoidable PDK. I can't help feeling that if I don't buy the RS, I'll always look at the inevitable other RSes on every track day with a certain degree of envy, and since I'm buying it as a track car only, I don't really care how much attention it gets or how practical it is. Will I miss having a manual? Possibly, but paddles are the way of the future. I'm still planning to use my 356 for Goodwood in September, and that's about as manual as you can get, so I guess I can get my fix that way,
Cheib said:
Which 356 do you own ? Doing a lot of reading about them at the moment. Be interested to hear what an owner thinks. Going to drive a couple in a the next week or two.
1964 SC, left-hooker, US car originally. Imported in the 90s and used for HSCC racing, then converted back to road use. Andy Prill / Shasta Engineering race motor, still a 1600 but around 115bhp. Quick, for a 356. Not quick in any other sense.
They are lovely old things. But they are lovely *old* things. Doesn't feel like a modern. Doesn't go like a modern. C/SCs will sort of stop like a modern - anything older not so much. If you're driving a B or older, remember that drums don't work so well in reverse...
I'm very fond of mine, but it's a labour of love. Ollie at RPM is presently trying to knock some more of the bugs out it, with a view to having it properly ready for some combination of trips to country pubs, if those are ever a thing again, and gentlemanly track days. It does make driving feel special again, even if you're just nipping into town to pick something up.
footsoldier said:
I’ve had same discussion with myself...and shouldn’t say it here, but 3RS are relatively unsatisfying to drive, if you’ve raced something properly. Remember the first time, thinking that was fast, but something is missing.
But, totally agree that it’s better not to take TDs very seriously and for those I don’t want to do anything but arrive, drive, and drive home.
Manual does add something to it, and at least involves you a bit more, and sensible fun can be had with friends in PDK RS. The Touring 100% looks the best to me, but the price gap to GT3 manual makes no sense at all - it’s a trim level, not a different car. Is it really worth paying all that extra, just to lose the wing?
Best bang for buck in a road car and most interesting to drive/track, will be a manual .2GT3, (for extra feel, fit it with Manthey/KW suspension and disconnect the PASM).
Yes but then a bind in the traffic ...... still TDs get a bit tiresome although good to shoot the breeze . Old style Manual and Turbo lag ...But, totally agree that it’s better not to take TDs very seriously and for those I don’t want to do anything but arrive, drive, and drive home.
Manual does add something to it, and at least involves you a bit more, and sensible fun can be had with friends in PDK RS. The Touring 100% looks the best to me, but the price gap to GT3 manual makes no sense at all - it’s a trim level, not a different car. Is it really worth paying all that extra, just to lose the wing?
Best bang for buck in a road car and most interesting to drive/track, will be a manual .2GT3, (for extra feel, fit it with Manthey/KW suspension and disconnect the PASM).
964Cup said:
Cheib said:
Which 356 do you own ? Doing a lot of reading about them at the moment. Be interested to hear what an owner thinks. Going to drive a couple in a the next week or two.
1964 SC, left-hooker, US car originally. Imported in the 90s and used for HSCC racing, then converted back to road use. Andy Prill / Shasta Engineering race motor, still a 1600 but around 115bhp. Quick, for a 356. Not quick in any other sense.
They are lovely old things. But they are lovely *old* things. Doesn't feel like a modern. Doesn't go like a modern. C/SCs will sort of stop like a modern - anything older not so much. If you're driving a B or older, remember that drums don't work so well in reverse...
I'm very fond of mine, but it's a labour of love. Ollie at RPM is presently trying to knock some more of the bugs out it, with a view to having it properly ready for some combination of trips to country pubs, if those are ever a thing again, and gentlemanly track days. It does make driving feel special again, even if you're just nipping into town to pick something up.
Cheib said:
964Cup said:
Cheib said:
Which 356 do you own ? Doing a lot of reading about them at the moment. Be interested to hear what an owner thinks. Going to drive a couple in a the next week or two.
1964 SC, left-hooker, US car originally. Imported in the 90s and used for HSCC racing, then converted back to road use. Andy Prill / Shasta Engineering race motor, still a 1600 but around 115bhp. Quick, for a 356. Not quick in any other sense.
They are lovely old things. But they are lovely *old* things. Doesn't feel like a modern. Doesn't go like a modern. C/SCs will sort of stop like a modern - anything older not so much. If you're driving a B or older, remember that drums don't work so well in reverse...
I'm very fond of mine, but it's a labour of love. Ollie at RPM is presently trying to knock some more of the bugs out it, with a view to having it properly ready for some combination of trips to country pubs, if those are ever a thing again, and gentlemanly track days. It does make driving feel special again, even if you're just nipping into town to pick something up.
This pre a i raced for a season,is a 1954 and the first porsche to race in the uk,great fun with a 1600/150bhp engine,brakes are always a issue.The 356 sc with discs are ok and fun,but you need to be a lover of them to live with them.
Legends race at lemans in 2014,great fun
hunter 66 said:
footsoldier said:
I’ve had same discussion with myself...and shouldn’t say it here, but 3RS are relatively unsatisfying to drive, if you’ve raced something properly. Remember the first time, thinking that was fast, but something is missing.
But, totally agree that it’s better not to take TDs very seriously and for those I don’t want to do anything but arrive, drive, and drive home.
Manual does add something to it, and at least involves you a bit more, and sensible fun can be had with friends in PDK RS. The Touring 100% looks the best to me, but the price gap to GT3 manual makes no sense at all - it’s a trim level, not a different car. Is it really worth paying all that extra, just to lose the wing?
Best bang for buck in a road car and most interesting to drive/track, will be a manual .2GT3, (for extra feel, fit it with Manthey/KW suspension and disconnect the PASM).
Yes but then a bind in the traffic ...... still TDs get a bit tiresome although good to shoot the breeze . Old style Manual and Turbo lag ...But, totally agree that it’s better not to take TDs very seriously and for those I don’t want to do anything but arrive, drive, and drive home.
Manual does add something to it, and at least involves you a bit more, and sensible fun can be had with friends in PDK RS. The Touring 100% looks the best to me, but the price gap to GT3 manual makes no sense at all - it’s a trim level, not a different car. Is it really worth paying all that extra, just to lose the wing?
Best bang for buck in a road car and most interesting to drive/track, will be a manual .2GT3, (for extra feel, fit it with Manthey/KW suspension and disconnect the PASM).
Footsoldier interested to see what your are comparing with for the rs to be unsatisfying to drive.
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