GT3 / 3RS / Touring

[964Cup]

OK, anyone know this car: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/202... ?

It's somewhat closer to what I think is a sensible price for a Touring. A little confused about it being a private sale but the pics have Porsche Approved plate covers in them...

[964Cup]

Porsche911R said:

looks expensive !! 8k miles, no lift , private sale, unless the wiggle rooms £12k :-)

No lift rules it out. I couldn't get my old 997 turbo up onto our driveway without ripping off the lip on the splitter, and RS is surely lower still.

Also, green seat inserts. Ech.

[964Cup]

I hesitate to say I'm making progress, but at least I have something like a shortlist.

Blue Lotus Exige Cup 430, 1.5k, asking £87k (dealer)
Blue 991.2GT3 CS PDK - PCCB, lift, 5k, asking £135k (OPC)
Crayon 991.2GT3 CS manual, PCCB, lift, 13k, asking £135k (OPC)
Gray 991.2GT3 Touring, steels, lift, 5k, asking £155k (Private)
Black 991.2GT3RS, PCCB, lift, 7k, asking £182k (RPM)

So a mere £100k difference from cheapest to dearest. 3 manuals, 2 PDK. 3 with cages, two without. The three in the middle are possibly credible replacements for my i8, the other two aren't (not that I mind having more cars, but it affects the man maths). They're all affordable within my arbitrary budget, which deliberately rules out WP cars and (more importantly) the GT2RS.

Manuals are rarer and some people seem to think they will hold their value better. Doubt that will be quite so true if I use the car properly, though.
PDK is clearly quicker on track. The Lotus is supposed to be a significantly more involving driving experience, but a) will it be reliable and b) will I be happy with how much slower it is than a GT3?

Right now I want to buy the fastest possible thing around a circuit. Mostly because of how comparatively slow my 964RS was when I took it out for my first track time in more than 15 years. Some of that was me, but by the end of the day it was mainly the car.

However, I fear that that way lies madness. Last time this happened I ended up going to slicks (which meant having someone bring the spare wheels to the track and the necessary kit to change them), which led to racing. If I keep chasing lap times I will a) probably get bored b) probably get in trouble with the TDO and c) probably want an actual race car.

A manual gives me a car with a wider skill portfolio - fun and involvement at lower speed on the road, some chance of using it for long trips etc - but I'm not convinced it moves the game on enough. It will be faster than my 964, of course, by miles, but will the actual driving experience be that different? I've still got the RS, and the 356, if I want that involvement and to remind myself that I know how to heel and toe. I suppose I should accept that heavily tracking the RS is bound to end in tears - it's an old car, and a valuable one, and although I hope not to crash it I will probably break it eventually. The 356 is older still, and although I care about it less, it's really really slow - hilarious for the occasional rose-tinted step back in time, but not a serious prospect for routine use.

I looked at Tourings in January, then bought the i8 in a fit of eco-weeniesm and because I thought they were over-priced. I still think they're over-priced, but maybe I'm just being stubborn. A Touring does seem the one-size-fits-all option - which is annoying because I missed out on a beautiful and properly-specced black one at the time. On the other hand the 3RS is surely the right answer for proper track work - and the reviews at least suggest it's a significant step up from the regular car in that area. But they're also still very expensive, and surely not a realistic road car proposition.

Maybe, therefore, a PDK GT3 clubsport is actually the right compromise answer. Which at least means I have plenty to choose from.

I can't help feeling also that values of the manual .2s (Touring or not), as well as the PDK cars, will fall when the 992 GT3 comes out - we know that has a no-cost manual option and will have a Touring pack. So if I'm going to buy one of those, I should probably wait (or try to get a 992 allocation).

And of course there's a good chance that all values are going to fall when reality hits, even if collectors cars still seem to be selling very well.

But I want a car now. Or at least now-ish, because I've missed out on 15 years of track driving and want to make up for it.

So no, not really making progress, if I'm honest.

[964Cup]

Purple Man said:

A good selection of cars there.
But you say you want the fastest possible thing round the track?
Well if that is the case you need the McLaren 720s, because they will make even the GT3RS look slow.
I have a PDK GT3 and at Donnington down the two straights my friends 720s comes past me as if I've hit reverse.
At Silverstone it was gone after half a lap.

Yes, but how much time has it spent at the dealer over the last year, and how much has he spent on pre- and post-event checks, consumables and all the rest of the McLaren palaver? I can't convince myself that McLarens will give me the reliability I want. I also can't convince myself that McLaren are going to be here next year to look after the car...

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Phooey said:

You only live once.

https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/113584/p...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=27&amp...

Doesn't quite fit the brief, which was:

Drive to race track
Drive round quickly
Drive home again

If I wanted a race car, I'd buy a 991 Cup. There's a strong chance I still might. But I'd probably need to set something aside for a good divorce lawyer first...

[964Cup]

seawise said:

haha - It's a really difficult decision though, isn't it ?

Of those options i can't help but think that the 991.2 GT3 RS is going to be your best bet (of course the most expensive option...).

Reading between the lines i think that ultimately you are going to need the quickest track option. And the RS is going to provide that. You can always unbolt the rear wing i suppose, if that is too outrageous for road use, otherwise i suspect it would make a lovely regular use sports car.

A touring is a very very lovely car, but i just think that you might end up frustrated if you are chasing the last few tenths, you can't fit harnesses and well driven RS's are going to mean you'll have to drive the tourings wheels off to keep up. at the end of the day you are buying the car now, rather than waiting, to do track days, and the touring is just not very good value at the moment (maybe never, but i doubt it once the 992 GT3 touring arrives).

I am doing a trackday this Wednesday at Cadwell in my touring (too soft to drive up there and back in a day in the old RS) together with my brothers in their Caterham, Alpine A110 and McLaren 570S. so i won't be chasing laptimes. In fact i can hardly remember the circuit given the last time i was there was racing a Caterham about a hundred years ago.

Anyway, keep the inner turmoil coming please, it's very entertaining.

I have a horrible feeling that you're right. I suspect if I buy a .2GT3 now, I'll end up trading it at a massive loss for a .2GT3RS within six months. The only thing is the ridiculous price of the RS. There's an awful lot of choice at that level (and of course it's a small step to numbers starting with a 2).

I suppose the real point is that for the 180k an RS is going to cost me I could buy a 100k racecar and have pretty well all the budget I need for a year's racing left over, assuming I don't properly bin the car. When I started this thread I was looking at .1RSes for £140k or so, which felt more sensible (for a not-very-sensible value of sensible); then it became apparent that the .2 is such a big step up on the .1 that I'd regret not buying the newer one.

I'm going to need to be very very nice to my wife, I fear. Where's that dog-breeder's number? Perhaps now is the time to give in to the incessant demands for a puppy...

[964Cup]

Phooey said:

I know, was just throwing a curveball. Appreciate not your cup of tea, but there's something about a PDK GT4 Clubsport which makes *me* think they are pretty good vfm if you're willing to trailer it about. It's got to be cheaper to run than a 997 GT3 Cup, and I don't think it'd be too far behind it.

Being serious - I'd go for a 991.1 RS. You seem to be a bit cautious of losing money (and rightly so!) so I think best vfm would be the gen1 RS. I can't see value in the .2 over the .1 when both have a solid engine.

Touring is trendy, and I love the under the radar uber-cool look of it, but for the same money I couldn't have one over an RS given your history of racing and wanting to track it.

My understanding is that the .1 engine is questionable, and the .2 has significant handling advantages. Otherwise I'd buy a .1 in a shot, because I don't think 25bhp is enough to make a difference (on a track day). I got a slightly embarrassingly warm feeling looking at this one in particular: https://www.classic-trader.com/fr/voitures/annonce...

Price too high, but Martini colours. Oh yes.

This one, White LHD, a bit of negotiation, a good vinyl designer and job's a good 'un.

Except it's not a .2.

Hmmmm....

[964Cup]

isaldiri said:

No the .1rs engine isn't 'questionable'. It's proven bloody reliable even with a ton of track usage in germany. It's not as good as the .2 obviously but you would quite reasonably expect the gen2 to move things on a tad.

I thought it was this finger-follower issue: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

I know they've extended the warranty, but I also don't really want warranty fights with my OPC on my horizon.

On the other hand, as before, a £40k saving is very tempting. I'd rather have a LHD car, and there's a few of those kicking around in the UK at vaguely sensible money. The purple one at JZM is the first car I saw (virtually speaking) when I started this thread.

[964Cup]

CorrosionInhibitor said:

Would a a 991.2 gt3 in which ever transmission you favour not be enough for you as you can obviously push on track ?, get a good geo, possibly exhaust if you want some additional drama and some wheels if you fancy..
Car at around £125k and mods to say <£10k.
Still gonna be cheaper than 991.1rs and newer car and tech at the end of the day..

Maybe. That's the conundrum. The vanilla .2 GT3 has a (supposedly) better engine, and is a newer car. The .1 RS has a wider front track, less understeer and a good deal more aero. The .1 RS is said to be snappier than the .2, but I'm coming out of a 964, so by contrast I'm sure it's quite progressive. Ultimately, though, a .1RS is only marginally more expensive than a .2 GT3. I've seen a couple of good candidate RSes in Germany for about £130k at current exchange rates, so £120-125k real price - perhaps less if the market turns out to be soft) and I can throw the same suspension upgrade money at it - what I can't do is widen the front track of the base GT3.

I haven't driven either yet. It's very hard to unpick the real difference in the engines or the chassis from the journalist ttwaffle, but Harris (whom I respect as a driver) seemed to think the motor in particular was a big step. I'm not wildly convinced that 200 extra RPM in a motor that makes peak power 750rpm before the red line is going to blow me away.

What I really want to find is a leggy (which in this market seems to mean 12k mile) .2RS at about £150-160k. I may just need to wait a bit.

But I'm really not very good at waiting. Or at choosing between alternatives, which is why I already have too many cars. Although obviously not as many too many as 2manycarz, for instance.

[964Cup]

CorrosionInhibitor said:

Re 991.2rs and your pricing point, these guys have a .2rs with 7 or 8k miles and good spec at £165k.
https://www.supercarsourcing.com/

Either I'm being thick or there's something else going on. That's the second time someone's said that, but I can't see a 3RS in their stock listing.

[964Cup]

isaldiri said:

Tbh OP it sounds like you'll only really be happy with the .2rs as you'd always hanker for one if you got something else that's theoretically 'inferior' like the .1rs or .2gt3.....

Yep. That is rather how the inside of my head works. I can rule out things I'm not prepared to afford, like the GT2RS, but making "sensible" downgrade decisions isn't really my thing. Which is idiotic since I know perfectly well that a .1 3RS is all the car I need (in fact, so I suspect is a plain .2 GT3).

I keep hoping that one day I'll learn.

[964Cup]

CorrosionInhibitor said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CAs6P-eJSsf/?igshid=1e...

Ah. Social media. No wonder I didn't see it. I only do antisocial media, like PH. I'll call them on Monday. Ta.

[964Cup]

Tripe Bypass said:

Something like this maybe?...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yii6XJL9qJk

Just the minor issue that about 80% of the difference in performance comes from it being on slicks. Not something you will get away with for very long on this side of the pond.

AIUI the big difference with the .2 RS is that they moved the centre of pressure for the aero forward, which is one reason why it has a better front end and more progressive handling balance. Even with the Cup front PU, splitter and dive planes I think that car is likely to have the 60% rear bias to the aero that is common to the Cup and .1.

Also, Americans. Race car for the road blah blah - but it's got 14-way sports seats. Eh?

[964Cup]

isaldiri said:

Oh cmon that's all marketing guff and nonsense about aero. CoP of downforce change isn't going to be anything significant on a road car that weighs 1500-ish kg. The idea it's responsible for a major handling change on the .2 Vs the .1 is laughable. You want slightly rear biased downforce anyway rather than front I can assure you any race engineer will mention as high speed oversteer isn't particularly desirable a trait.

I did say I haven't driven either. The line comes, amongst others, from Randy Pobst.

It's entirely a psychological problem, and only because I can afford any of the cars I listed earlier - I'm not worried that the GT2RS is faster because I'm not in the market for a £300k car.

It's one reason to look at the Lotus - not just because it's cheap, but because it's the latest & greatest of that series. If I buy a .1 I'll always wonder if a .2 would have been faster, even though obviously it'll be me, not the car, that's the limiting factor. If I'd done less research, I'd doubtless have bought the .1 I first thought of and been happy...

[964Cup]

Hokay. So. Progress. Of a sort.

I have homed in on a .1 GT3RS. I have, in fact, found three that fit the bill:

LHD, in the UK, 12k miles, KW V3 and ST discs, independent dealer and warranty.
RHD, in the UK, 9k miles, stock, OPC + 2 year Porsche warranty.
LHD, in Germany, 7k miles, stock, independent dealer but Porsche warranty for a year.

They all have the key bits (lift, chairs, PCCB); the RHD needs a cruise retrofit (which won't happen in time, I should think); the German car has mad spex (original invoice over 200k EUR); the UK left-hooker's previous owner went a bit mad at Techart so all the exterior plastic parts are now CF at vast (but resale-pointless) expense, and it also has the aforementioned trick but road-unfriendly suspension and supposedly more durable brakes. It can be had with some mentalist exhaust that I suspect makes an already loud car very much louder for people who like that kind of thing.

They are all the same colour. Not telling. Have to keep some kind of surprise in reserve.

I have the option to go to Spa for two days next week Thursday and Friday.

However, in addition to putting up with a lot of footling rules about facemasks and [karen]social distancing[/karen], I also have to buy and take delivery of the car in time. And gamble that the UK won't make my life difficult with quarantine rules on the way back in (especially if I'm in a car on German plates...)

I can:

1. Buy the UK left-hooker. It's clearly the best set up for my intended use, but the worst set up for getting to Spa. amongst other things this version of the KW kit disables the nose lift and it'll need significant geometry changes to make it driveable over that kind of distance - which will mean a completely unknown setup when I get there. I also won't get a Porsche warranty (unless I return the car to standard - I get the parts with the car, but the labour won't be free... - and do the 111-point check and pay for it). The car can be ready in time and I do trust the supplying dealer.

2. Buy the UK right-hooker. No 90 litre tank but full UK OPC support. About the same money as car #1. Can probably be ready in time, but it would help if the dealer actually answered the phone. And no cruise for a long motorway drive across the most boring country in Europe. Feh.

3. Buy the German car, sight unseen. Wire them the money tomorrow to give time for the paperwork. The car is apparently on the button and ready to go. Then fly to Germany on Tuesday night, pick the car up on Wednesday morning and drive 700km to Spa. This feels slightly mad, but quite fun, and the car is about £15k cheaper than the other two.

4. Skip Spa on the grounds that it will be less fun with all the social elements hamstrung by karen-panic, take a breath and sort a car out in time for the next booking which is in September. But where's the fun in that?

Normally I'd go for #3 as a no-brainer - because cheaper, and lower mileage, and spec etc - but travel is somewhat more fraught than it used to be and therefore I have no chance to see the car (or more importantly, assess the dealer) first. In other circumstances I would of course just do a day-trip to the Fatherland, see the car, pay for it, fly home again and then return to pick it up. But during [karen]coronavirus[/karen] there are no direct flights from London (seriously - how absurd is that?), and it's all a bit of a massive pain in the 'arris.

So, in the spirit of this thread, WWYD?

[964Cup]

footsoldier said:

Don’t know what I’d do, but I had full KW (Manthey) set up on Gt2RS and it was no issue to drive to Spa (from Scotland...). Made the odd squeaking noise, but that’s it.

I've not seen the car yet, but it's apparently about 3mm off the road and has so much toe it looks cross-eyed; the dealer is pretty adamant it will need changing to avoid it eating its tyres on the way there, if nothing else. I also need to be able to navigate speed humps, since I live in London. So that means raising the ride height, changing the toe, and trusting that the setup will work with no chance to test it (apart, perhaps, from a brief blat around the UK countryside, which doesn't strike me as an ideal proving ground). Something of an act of faith, at least.

I hear very good things about the Manthey kit (they did this car) but I'd originally planned to go with a standard car at least until I'd found the ultimate limit of the stock suspension.

[964Cup]

Dr S said:

The OP has been racing in the past. So it's not unlikely that he knows an experienced engineer who could be helpful

It's a good point. Actually I'm no longer in touch with the chap that used to run my race car (Neil Bainbridge at BS Motorsport) but RPM did the setup for my 964RS and that worked well, so I'd be fairly comfortable with them having a stab at it. The issue is twofold:

1) no chance to validate the setup beforehand at all (because I've ended up in a badly-planned rush) and no real way to adjust it while I'm at Spa; I won't have tools or, frankly, knowledge and I can't do what I'd normally do and try to beg/borrow/schmooze/buy some help out of someone else's engineers because of [karen]coronavirus[/karen].

2) I know the KW suspension is good in principle. But my experience of adjustable suspension is that if you get the set up wrong the car can be undriveably bad (go on, ask me how I know). Probably the engineer will do a good job on a compromise set up, and let's be clear that since I'll also be learning the car (and trying to remember which way Spa goes round - I've not been there in a car for 20 years, I think - although I cycled past it in 2017...) I'm not going to be looking for the last couple of tenths. I just don't want to spend two days dealing with terminal understeer or snap oversteer or wheel hop or any of the other hilarious issues I've previously experienced.

So the right answer would be wait, book a day at Bedford or Mallory or somewhere else cheap (if those places still are), go down with support, get the car set up and then do Spa. Since I can't do that, I'm attracted to a stock set up because although it won't ultimately be as fast as the KW when fully configured, it will have good handling balance out of the box.

Of course there's also option 5 - take the 964RS. Perhaps I should do that, use the opportunity to remember how frightening Eau Rouge is, and then sort out a faster car for September. Of course that would be sensible, and I don't really do sensible.

[964Cup]

DomT87 said:

Buy any of them and get over to Spa next week!

Sir yes sir.



Collecting Saturday.

[964Cup]

Porsche911R said:

why laugh that's the skill needed to pilot a manual over being a passenger in a stty automatic.

you cannot make that error in the automatic hence how f++king dull they are ;-)

Well, yes, although there's plenty of room for other mistakes instead.

I do still have the 964RS and the 356 for chasing driver involvement. The brief here was laptimes, and I think (hope) the GT3RS will be faster than a manual GT3. Or at least a manual GT3 also driven by me...

[964Cup]

Yellow491 said:

Hi Dr S
I would be interested to see what he recommends on set up on these latest rs versions,i guess a ring set up would be reasonable on the road and track.I would be keeping the factory dampers and springs though,trying to get my head around a set up with the rear wheel steer as well.
Speaking to a regular ring test driver for honda,he was intimating the rear wheel steer does not interfere if you put quick steering inputs in.

Ricky at RPM is setting mine up tomorrow; happy to share the settings once I have them. The idea is to get something I can feasibly drive to circuits as well as round them; I'm not looking for on-road performance, though, as long as the car doesn't actively try to kill me, so I suspect it will be lower, stiffer and more cambered than might be ideal for a road setup.