GT3 / 3RS / Touring

[Porsche911R]

hunter 66 said:

The current manual GT3 is a fully automatic , electronically control tool where you need to very little baring "dip the clutch " Drive a car without ABS to see a true challenge ...
Anyway this discussion is a bit pointless , as everyone has their own needs and dreams

I do drive my car without ABS ever cutting in, it’s called threashold braking and I drive my car with those skills picked up from my Lotus days when you could lock one side front wheel.
I also drive PSM fully off.

It's a skill for being faster than the next guy or out braking a driver who relies on ABS every corner !

The Manual GT3 is a great tool with the option to use Auto blip to help you under stand what needs to be done manually, so a great driver aid which you can turn off once mastered but even with auto blip on the workloads twice that of a PDK car.

I don’t flat shift my GT3 as my brain at 50 won’t let me keep the throttle pinned, I have driven a million manual miles in my life, it takes a crazy amount of concentration to flat shift for me so I don’t bother , I can do it 3rd to 4th if practiced but my own autopilot takes over, same as pre empting a spin and correcting before a major event, it’s all auto pilot driving.

People in the main do not understand threshold braking and don’t bother, but in a manual you plan your braking point to the inch, you press the clutch, you take your hand off the wheel while braking to threshold with half your foot, you are now driving one handed and planning and using both feet and ALL 3 pedals. All of this while choosing a gear, now you have to rev match while under full threshold locking up point and slot in your gear. It’s still not over as you now have to hit your apex and get both hands back on the wheel, on a long bend you now might want to be left foot braking to balance the car or covering the brake with your left foot, planning your exit and again pressing the clutch, taking you hand off the wheel and slotting a gear, this also in a GT3 might induce a bit of wheel spin when the clutch is lifted and now you are over steering out the bend.

In a PDK e-diff car with PSM on.

You pick a point within a few meters to brake, it don't matter if you are a bit late , your cars does all the gear changing for you, you run wide of the apex as you are a noob ABS cuts in, the e-diff and PTV starts to lock one of the rears to pull you back on track, at this point you have done st all bar press the brake pedal, you exit out the bend and the car uses PSM there is no wheel spin and off you go having done really sweet FA bar brake 100% and then throttle 100%

You come into the pits and ask your mate why your front tyres treads are bent backwards and why there is smoke coming off the rear brakes.

:-)

But let’s not split hairs here on the work load difference between driving a PDK badly and driving a Manual GT3 well.

I lap slower in manual cars it's just much much harder, I admit that, no shame in it, but very rewarding taking 15 yards out of another car into a slow bend when all done perfect.

[964Cup]

if you want the manual experience, get a properly manual car. Nothing newer than a 3.2 Carrera. Preferably an earlier car with a 915; or get a 356 like mine - no power-assisted anything, no ABS, no springing in the gearbox. In fact, why not get a car with a crash box and an outside gear lever? Get one with a centre accelerator so you *really* have to think about it, or perhaps a car with no front brakes.

All modern cars have driver aids. Automatic gearboxes are just one of them. At the end of the day, you still have to decide when to brake, when to turn in, how to balance the car through the turn. That's what driving actually is.

I imagine I will have plenty to think about at Spa, even though my car apparently requires no skill to drive. In fact I suspect I may have more to think about than I would have had in the 64RS, since I'll be arriving at everything rather sooner...

[Twinfan]

gtsralph said:

TDT said:

Front aero adjustable flaps/‘trimmers’ was first introduced on the 981 GT4, and made its next appearance on the 991.2 GT3 RS and then 718 GT4 (apart from Australian Markets)

991.1 GT3 RS and 991.2 GT3 do not have this. And neither does the 991.2 GT2 RS iirc

Edited by TDT on Sunday 21st June 15:17

Sure about 718 GT4? I haven’t found it yet.

I think the front splitter and rear spoiler each have three height settings. Standard is the middle setting on both.

[Porsche911R]

Melvynr said:

Porsche911R said:

It’s a shame you don't understand advanced driving techniques or know anything about the Manual GT3 or how and over rev happens.
Or that the PDK have a e-diff and different RWS calibration all to make it easier to drive.

I also said I am faster in a Auto over a Manual so not sure why it upsets you so much. It’s just a fact of driving both cars.

So let’s leave it there as it's lost of deft ears atm.

Edited by Porsche911R on Sunday 21st June 21:17

Advanced driving techniques, to drive a manual car.You're a stunner.BYE BYE

I said you don’t understand advanced techniques full stop be it manual or PDK, so to have a debate was pointless.

[Porsche911R]

964Cup said:

if you want the manual experience, get a properly manual car. Nothing newer than a 3.2 Carrera. Preferably an earlier car with a 915; or get a 356 like mine - no power-assisted anything, no ABS, no springing in the gearbox. In fact, why not get a car with a crash box and an outside gear lever? Get one with a centre accelerator so you *really* have to think about it, or perhaps a car with no front brakes.

All modern cars have driver aids. Automatic gearboxes are just one of them. At the end of the day, you still have to decide when to brake, when to turn in, how to balance the car through the turn. That's what driving actually is.

I imagine I will have plenty to think about at Spa, even though my car apparently requires no skill to drive. In fact I suspect I may have more to think about than I would have had in the 64RS, since I'll be arriving at everything rather sooner...

I agree the work loads more in older cars, but also they are much slower and you have 3x the amount of feed back so you feel more at one with it than modern cars. Imo also way more predictable to drive as less grip.

Driving a PDK car fast still takes skill to lap Spa sub 2.40 , but you now can keep both hands on the wheel and have one foot on each pedal. The workload is far less and the mental work load is less.

When I drive both I sweat a lot more driving a manual car fast over a PDK car fast but I am still slower in the manual.

While a pro driver can pilot both cars very fast, I would get closer to the pro's time in a PDK car vs the pro's time in the manual car.

I find getting it right in the manual is far more involving hence the sweating and far more rewarding when you nail every element.

It,s not “just dipping a clutch” lol

[TDT]

ChrisW. said:

TDT said:

Front aero adjustable flaps/‘trimmers’ was first introduced on the 981 GT4, and made its next appearance on the 991.2 GT3 RS and then 718 GT4 (apart from Australian Markets)

991.1 GT3 RS and 991.2 GT3 do not have this. And neither does the 991.2 GT2 RS iirc

Edited by TDT on Sunday 21st June 15:17

Do you know anybody who has played with this ?

It's interesting that we have done so much and I certainly have not touched the aero ... ??

I've taken mine out and my rear wing is at the highest angle of attack... I'll be honest... I'm not sure if I've noticed any difference other than maybe I lost a couple of MPH at the end of Hanger Straight at Silverstone, but I haven't done any back to back testing so difficult to say.

Car feels fine and planted to me so i'll leave it for now. My actual plan on the 'aero' side is to get a gurney flap for the STD rear wing or test out one of these larger chord rear wings (Manthey have one as does Designs by Jacob) and then just run it at the default AOA, this is generally what is done on the CS. Taller wing risers are an option - but I don't like want an aftermarket look.

Edited by TDT on Sunday 21st June 23:45

[Yellow491]

Porsche911R said:

hunter 66 said:

The current manual GT3 is a fully automatic , electronically control tool where you need to very little baring "dip the clutch " Drive a car without ABS to see a true challenge ...
Anyway this discussion is a bit pointless , as everyone has their own needs and dreams

I do drive my car without ABS ever cutting in, it’s called threashold braking and I drive my car with those skills picked up from my Lotus days when you could lock one side front wheel.
I also drive PSM fully off.

It's a skill for being faster than the next guy or out braking a driver who relies on ABS every corner !

The Manual GT3 is a great tool with the option to use Auto blip to help you under stand what needs to be done manually, so a great driver aid which you can turn off once mastered but even with auto blip on the workloads twice that of a PDK car.

I don’t flat shift my GT3 as my brain at 50 won’t let me keep the throttle pinned, I have driven a million manual miles in my life, it takes a crazy amount of concentration to flat shift for me so I don’t bother , I can do it 3rd to 4th if practiced but my own autopilot takes over, same as pre empting a spin and correcting before a major event, it’s all auto pilot driving.

People in the main do not understand threshold braking and don’t bother, but in a manual you plan your braking point to the inch, you press the clutch, you take your hand off the wheel while braking to threshold with half your foot, you are now driving one handed and planning and using both feet and ALL 3 pedals. All of this while choosing a gear, now you have to rev match while under full threshold locking up point and slot in your gear. It’s still not over as you now have to hit your apex and get both hands back on the wheel, on a long bend you now might want to be left foot braking to balance the car or covering the brake with your left foot, planning your exit and again pressing the clutch, taking you hand off the wheel and slotting a gear, this also in a GT3 might induce a bit of wheel spin when the clutch is lifted and now you are over steering out the bend.

In a PDK e-diff car with PSM on.

You pick a point within a few meters to brake, it don't matter if you are a bit late , your cars does all the gear changing for you, you run wide of the apex as you are a noob ABS cuts in, the e-diff and PTV starts to lock one of the rears to pull you back on track, at this point you have done st all bar press the brake pedal, you exit out the bend and the car uses PSM there is no wheel spin and off you go having done really sweet FA bar brake 100% and then throttle 100%

You come into the pits and ask your mate why your front tyres treads are bent backwards and why there is smoke coming off the rear brakes.

:-)

But let’s not split hairs here on the work load difference between driving a PDK badly and driving a Manual GT3 well.

I lap slower in manual cars it's just much much harder, I admit that, no shame in it, but very rewarding taking 15 yards out of another car into a slow bend when all done perfect.

R if you cant flat shift which is a peice of piss,how the hell do you brake to inch Perfect,it’s comical is it not.
You best come and show us all how to threshold brake so well and take feet out of other cars at silverstone,the perfect track to do it in a gt3.

[Cheib]

hunter 66 said:

Anyway this discussion is a bit pointless , as everyone has their own needs and dreams

Edited by hunter 66 on Sunday 21st June 21:22

This.

[TDT]

Twinfan said:

gtsralph said:

TDT said:

Front aero adjustable flaps/‘trimmers’ was first introduced on the 981 GT4, and made its next appearance on the 991.2 GT3 RS and then 718 GT4 (apart from Australian Markets)

991.1 GT3 RS and 991.2 GT3 do not have this. And neither does the 991.2 GT2 RS iirc

Edited by TDT on Sunday 21st June 15:17

Sure about 718 GT4? I haven’t found it yet.

I think the front splitter and rear spoiler each have three height settings. Standard is the middle setting on both.

@TF - I think you might be mixing that up with the ARBs.. which are adjustable, 3 holes, front and rear, and yes - comes from the factory middle/middle.

Only the rear Wing is AoA adjustable.

@ Ralph, Ref the front diffuser channel covers.. I'm sure AP mentions that they are still there in one of the vids, also I did read it in an number of reviews, and also I saw a thread in RL about it - specific reference for that was that Australian Market cars are not delivered with the ability to remove the channel covers and instead have underbody strakes that can be fitted 'for track use only'

FOUND IT: On RL on the 718 GT4 area - search for a thread titled 'Different front aerodynamic inserts for Australian GT4s'





But you are right.... it does seem that there isn't much mention of them at all, for the 718, and there is far more detail on the Air Curtains and also an additional new gurney in the front fascia to draw more air out of the front bumper outlet.
The official brochure for 718 GT4 makes reference to additional spoiler in ahead of the front wheel arches.. which also sound like the same front diffuser channel covers.

But you can obviously check under your car.... tbh, the covers on the 981 are pretty innocuous pieces of plastic, just like the one depicted in the 718 manual above.

Edited by TDT on Sunday 21st June 23:51

[Melvynr]

Porsche911R said:

I said you don’t understand advanced techniques full stop be it manual or PDK, so to have a debate was pointless.

Your a proper Walter Mitty who lives his life and driving on the internet.Cant flat shift , lololol

[lowndes]

Porsche911R said:

The Manual GT3 is a great tool with the option to use Auto blip to help you under stand what needs to be done manually, so a great driver aid which you can turn off

My Driver's Manual is in German. Could someone tell me how to switch off auto blip when in Sport mode. Thanks.

[Cheib]

lowndes said:

Porsche911R said:

The Manual GT3 is a great tool with the option to use Auto blip to help you under stand what needs to be done manually, so a great driver aid which you can turn off

My Driver's Manual is in German. Could someone tell me how to switch off auto blip when in Sport mode. Thanks.

You can’t.

[lowndes]

Cheib said:

lowndes said:

Porsche911R said:

The Manual GT3 is a great tool with the option to use Auto blip to help you under stand what needs to be done manually, so a great driver aid which you can turn off

My Driver's Manual is in German. Could someone tell me how to switch off auto blip when in Sport mode. Thanks.

You can’t.

Thanks for clarifying this. I did have a quick look through the various menu options but couldn't readily find anything.

So Hunter nails it

hunter 66 said:

The current manual GT3 is a fully automatic , electronically control tool where you need to very little baring "dip the clutch " Drive a GT car without ABS to see a true challenge ...
Anyway this discussion is a bit pointless , as everyone has their own needs and dreams

Edited by hunter 66 on Sunday 21st June 21:22

[TDT]

Sport Button in the 991.2 GT3 is literally only there to enable the rev matching features on the way up and down.
It might manually a low temp thermostat as well, which will open anyway once the car is hot enough for it.
It has no control over PSM or PASM.

So just don’t press it, if you wan to maintain full control… it should have been called Auto Blip which it is in the 718 GT4/Spyder and 991 Speedster

[Porsche911R]

Yellow491 said:

R if you cant flat shift which is a peice of piss,how the hell do you brake to inch Perfect,it’s comical is it not.
You best come and show us all how to threshold brake so well and take feet out of other cars at silverstone,the perfect track to do it in a gt3.

Why do you think that's comic ?

I have been track driving and road driving for over a million miles lifting the throttle all those miles in all 76 cars.

Auto pilot takes over and when the work load in manual gets up you automatic lift the throttle slighty, it's 34 years of programing.

Threshold braking is a skill I learnt back in 2001 in my Lotus days and since have perfected it and have good brake feel.

why get upset and start throwing toys ? this forum is very frustrating, people don't want to learn or think they are too good already to learn anything ?

I said I am slower in a manual car myself over driving a PDK, I am no pro, I am a keen amateur who enjoys learning advanced driver skills to improve my driving.

Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 22 June 09:19

[964Cup]

Gently bringing this thread back to its original purpose (or at least its new original purpose once I found out that RMA's Spa day was actually going ahead and I had to get my skates on)...

What do we think a good time looks like round Spa in a 1.GT3RS on Cup 2s? I find it slightly irritating that at least half the lap videos one can find are 12-year-olds on a playstation, not actual cars. Modern graphics are so good that it takes a moment to realise you're watching little Bradley work his thumbs while "dissing" someone else's mother over his headset. I suspect the 2:33's they boast of might be a little optimistic in the real world.

I'm going with 2:40 as a consensus really fast lap time on road tyres. The last time I drove Spa was twenty years ago in a 993RS Touring; I don't think I even had lap timing kit then, and if I did, I've long lost the files. So I think I'll be happy if I can get with 10% of 2:40 on day 1 - something like a 2:56. Does that sound reasonable?

[Yellow491]

Porsche911R said:

Yellow491 said:

R if you cant flat shift which is a peice of piss,how the hell do you brake to inch Perfect,it’s comical is it not.
You best come and show us all how to threshold brake so well and take feet out of other cars at silverstone,the perfect track to do it in a gt3.

Why do you think that's comic ?

I have been track driving and road driving for over a million miles lifting the throttle all those miles in all 76 cars.

Auto pilot takes over and when the work load in manual gets up you automatic lift the throttle slighty.

Threshold braking is a skill I learnt back in 2001 in my Lotus days and since have perfected it and have good brake feel.

why get upset and start throwing toys ? this forum is very frustrating, people don't want to learn or think they are to good too already ?

I said I am slower in a manual car myself over driving a PDK, I am no pro, I am a keen amature who enjoys learning advanced driver skills to improve my driving.

In all the driver education i have had from some of the very best plus a week long intensive at silverstone with top coaches Not pec , all the guys i have competed against or with, not one has said how great they are at the craft of driving and racing,and others are noobs.
I am always keen to learn more in Competition on track to go faster so please come along to silverstone and coach us,or any where else,but it must be seat of the pants not sim.
I could follow you then copy your inch perfect breaking points,i can return the favour and show you how to flat shift.

[Porsche911R]

Yellow491 said:

In all the driver education i have had from some of the very best plus a week long intensive at silverstone with top coaches Not pec , all the guys i have competed against or with, not one has said how great they are at the craft of driving and racing,and others are noobs.
I am always keen to learn more in Competition on track to go faster so please come along to silverstone and coach us,or any where else,but it must be seat of the pants not sim.
I could follow you then copy your inch perfect breaking points,i can return the favour and show you how to flat shift.

I can flat shift with no pressure :-) I cannot keep the throttle pinned under pressure every gear, do you now under stand why over taking the piss.

I have had every sort of training also, Drift, rally, race, Andrew Walsh was good to learn about slip angles and he tought me threshold braking.
after that I took race training from Phil Bennett and a few other current racers of that time back in the day, and that point I knew I was never going to be the fastest !!!

Also to find those last lets say 4 seconds on a lap like Donnington, the risks are higher to crashing and the wear items are up 10 fold, I am more than happy to lap way off 100% pace to save the car and get life from tyres/brakes etc, but in the main that's enough on a track day.

Phil bennet thrashed the fook out of my car and it was eye opening. I would never do that to my own car to find the last 2 seconds.

How's your Ti manifolds ;-p

[Porsche911R]

964Cup said:

Gently bringing this thread back to its original purpose (or at least its new original purpose once I found out that RMA's Spa day was actually going ahead and I had to get my skates on)...

What do we think a good time looks like round Spa in a 1.GT3RS on Cup 2s? I find it slightly irritating that at least half the lap videos one can find are 12-year-olds on a playstation, not actual cars. Modern graphics are so good that it takes a moment to realise you're watching little Bradley work his thumbs while "dissing" someone else's mother over his headset. I suspect the 2:33's they boast of might be a little optimistic in the real world.

I'm going with 2:40 as a consensus really fast lap time on road tyres. The last time I drove Spa was twenty years ago in a 993RS Touring; I don't think I even had lap timing kit then, and if I did, I've long lost the files. So I think I'll be happy if I can get with 10% of 2:40 on day 1 - something like a 2:56. Does that sound reasonable?

Steve Ross is the fastest guy in the UK on you tube imo posts very fast laps and has skills.
https://youtu.be/7b0ur7WlNC8

Tim Harvey in a non RS GT3 did a 2.38 at spa as an ex pro racer and GT3 lover, oem car just with ST disks.

I cannot lap fast there I don't have the balls and only been twice, in some area's, a lot of driving at top level is then balls and no fear of crashing imho, I had that when i was 20, seem to have lost that at 40 + ! Plus you need 100 laps at least behind you on any track if you want times.

enjoy Steve Ross laps I always do he's doing circa 2.42 laps for fun in traffic !!! very fast guy.

[TDT]

964Cup said:

Gently bringing this thread back to its original purpose (or at least its new original purpose once I found out that RMA's Spa day was actually going ahead and I had to get my skates on)...

What do we think a good time looks like round Spa in a 1.GT3RS on Cup 2s? I find it slightly irritating that at least half the lap videos one can find are 12-year-olds on a playstation, not actual cars. Modern graphics are so good that it takes a moment to realise you're watching little Bradley work his thumbs while "dissing" someone else's mother over his headset. I suspect the 2:33's they boast of might be a little optimistic in the real world.

I'm going with 2:40 as a consensus really fast lap time on road tyres. The last time I drove Spa was twenty years ago in a 993RS Touring; I don't think I even had lap timing kit then, and if I did, I've long lost the files. So I think I'll be happy if I can get with 10% of 2:40 on day 1 - something like a 2:56. Does that sound reasonable?

Yep, 2:40 is starting to get very quick for trackday on road tyres. Seen plenty of real life fast laps around 2:36.
Your car will do 2m56 easily with 500hp and trick chassis/suspension, so that’s a soft target really, but can understand as you have literally just acquired the car.

I was due to do 2 days at the start of April.
Was targeting 2:50-2:55 in standard power GT4 (385hp) for day 1.

Really looking forward to hearing how you do. Get some data logging sorted.