GT3 / 3RS / Touring

[Porsche911R]

footsoldier said:

I’ve had same discussion with myself...and shouldn’t say it here, but 3RS are relatively unsatisfying to drive, if you’ve raced something properly. Remember the first time, thinking that was fast, but something is missing.
But, totally agree that it’s better not to take TDs very seriously and for those I don’t want to do anything but arrive, drive, and drive home.

Manual does add something to it, and at least involves you a bit more, and sensible fun can be had with friends in PDK RS. The Touring 100% looks the best to me, but the price gap to GT3 manual makes no sense at all - it’s a trim level, not a different car. Is it really worth paying all that extra, just to lose the wing?

Best bang for buck in a road car and most interesting to drive/track, will be a manual .2GT3, (for extra feel, fit it with Manthey/KW suspension and disconnect the PASM).

Hit the nail on the head there.

[hunter 66]

Both work well , I went for steels as prefer the feel , and yes after 10 k miles and about 9 track days , they have some cracks that may mean the OPC wants a change . Anyway they are consumables .
Most RS have only done 150 miles anyway

[Far Cough]

OP - Have you considered the CSR models that RPM teknic sell ? I have no affiliation with them but you want a reasonably fast car that track focused and has plenty of feel. You also want to drive to and from the trackday. They won't have the cutting edge tec inside as far as sat Nov and music streaming etc but I think on the face of it one of these is right up your street. It's upto you then how ”racecar" you want to make it.

Just a suggestion ??

[Porsche911R]

hunter 66 said:

Both work well , I went for steels as prefer the feel , and yes after 10 k miles and about 9 track days , they have some cracks that may mean the OPC wants a change . Anyway they are consumables .
Most RS have only done 150 miles anyway

unlike 996 Steel disk days, you might have a shock for a complete set of RS steel disks and pads from your OPC now.

PCCB now cost less to run on track due to this, as if serious the steel disks don't do many full on track days 3 to 5 full days life !


As for feel I cannot tell if the cars on PCCB or steels bar steels fade earlier !. Most feel comes from what pad you have not disk type.
what you can feel is the performance of unsprung mass which is nice in the hands and turn in, match that with a set of MAG wheels or BBS Fi-R and it's a much sweeter drive esp on the road. I have 3 cars on ceramic disks and 2 cars on steels, I would take ceramic every time the cars just feel over all better.

[Porsche911R]

Far Cough said:

OP - Have you considered the CSR models that RPM teknic sell ? I have no affiliation with them but you want a reasonably fast car that track focused and has plenty of feel. You also want to drive to and from the trackday. They won't have the cutting edge tec inside as far as sat Nov and music streaming etc but I think on the face of it one of these is right up your street. It's upto you then how ”racecar" you want to make it.

Just a suggestion ??

not when a 997.1 GT3 is cheaper !!!

I don't get the CSR and prices, it's a few bolt on's you can buy yourself at 1/3 of the price and the cars have zero resale value.

[964Cup]

Far Cough said:

OP - Have you considered the CSR models that RPM teknic sell ? I have no affiliation with them but you want a reasonably fast car that track focused and has plenty of feel. You also want to drive to and from the trackday. They won't have the cutting edge tec inside as far as sat Nov and music streaming etc but I think on the face of it one of these is right up your street. It's upto you then how ”racecar" you want to make it.

Just a suggestion ??

I did think about it. I also thought about building a 964 or 993 race rep thing - throw enough money at it and you can make them fast(-ish). Or an Ultima. Or road-registering an old race car (like a Ferrari Challenge car).

I decided that a) I didn't want the endless hassle of bitsas where there's always something not quite working right - I want a turnkey experience with a warranty behind it, b) I want the car now, not in 24 months' time and c) I want the absolute cutting edge, the apogee of current track car technology, subject to being able to drive to the track.

If I want an analogue experience, I can take the 964RS; if I want to spend most of my time looking out of a side window while not actually going very fast, I can take the 356.

For this use case, I want to drive to the track without it making me utterly miserable (so not a Radical or a BAC Mono or something), get as close to race laps as a road car will allow (which isn't very close, but the gap between a 3RS and even a hopped-up 997 is huge in that respect), and then drive home again. I plan to do a lot of further-flung tracks: I have 4 days booked at Spa this year, for instance, so whatever I buy has to be able to do motorway miles without my teeth falling out, my ears being deafened or my eyes filling up with flies.

I originally wanted to spend about £140k; I'm forming the view that I might need to go to £180k.

I think that gives me a few options:
.2 GT3 manual; .2 GT3 touring; .2 GT3RS
600LT / 675LT / 720S
Maybe a 488, but obviously not a Pista, so not really a track car
Huracan Performante
AMG GT-R

Or, if I'm feeling cheap:
Audi R8 GT
Exige Cup 430

My instinct is to get the .2 3RS as I'm a Porsche guy, and I have confidence it won't break.

But...McLaren offers astonishing numbers for the money - my fear is they'll break; I assume the AMG would be reliable, and Harris seemed to like it - I just don't like the way they look, and they are still more of a road car, I think. The Huracan is surely more show than go, but I have no experience of the brand (and they're basically Audis under the skin, no?). The 488 I'd rule out as it's a road car, plus it's a Ferrari and so will cost a fortune to run and break a lot, based on my past experience. The Audi is cheap to get into and could lend itself to mods, but then I'm back to my original bitsa objections.

The Lotus, though. Less than £90k. >400bhp/ton. Hmm.

If I'm going to use the car properly and put serious miles on it, I can't help feeling the 3RS (or any of the other exotics) is going to be a costly proposition. No one seems to actually use them, so a 25,000+ mile example with 20-odd track days behind it is likely to be a hard sell.

The Lotus, on the other hand, is cheap to start with, so even if it loses half its value it's not a big issue. And I suspect it will be quite fun to drive.

The more I think about this, the harder it gets.

[964Cup]

Mind you, if I can find one, an Ultima Evolution also looks like value. They are supposed to go very well, and the motors and gearboxes at least should be reasonably reliable. Not 3RS levels of sophistication, but really quite fast.

[Porsche911R]

964Cup said:

I originally wanted to spend about £140k; I'm forming the view that I might need to go to £180k.

I think that gives me a few options:
.2 GT3 manual; .2 GT3 touring; .2 GT3RS
600LT / 675LT / 720S
Maybe a 488, but obviously not a Pista, so not really a track car
Huracan Performante
AMG GT-R

Or, if I'm feeling cheap:
Audi R8 GT
Exige Cup 430

My instinct is to get the .2 3RS as I'm a Porsche guy, and I have confidence it won't break.

.

only one choice if you want a manual and enjoy driving and if you have a £180k pot here is your build sheet.


GT3 PCCB 991.2 Manual
TTX Ohlins
motor sport CUP LCA
Lipo battery
Full Ti exhaust
BBS Fi-R wheels
Manthey Aero kit
Some light weight seats.
E-motion set of 6 Rear Control Arms.
Caster pucks.

530bhp, 3000lbs, fully mono balled, what's not to like.

USP is manual of course which means you do still have to drive it ;-) but what a car and about £170k all in.

[Heathrow]

Have you considered buying a 991.2 GT3 manual with front axle lift and de-winging to create your own touring? Would leave plenty of budget for further mods to your taste. Premium for a proper Touring seems difficult to justify by any objective measure.

I can recommend trying a V6 Exige.I think a 380 / 410 / 430 would be suitable for your intended track use but in my experience is more compromised and therefore harder work on longer road trips. Not impossible, but clearly less habitable than a modern GT car for comparison.

This is a great thread btw.

[964Cup]

Heathrow said:

Have you considered buying a 991.2 GT3 manual with front axle lift and de-winging to create your own touring? Would leave plenty of budget for further mods to your taste. Premium for a proper Touring seems difficult to justify by any objective measure.

I can recommend trying a V6 Exige.I think a 380 / 410 / 430 would be suitable for your intended track use but in my experience is more compromised and therefore harder work on longer road trips. Not impossible, but clearly less habitable than a modern GT car for comparison.

This is a great thread btw.

Yes - but I can't find anyone offering to do it. You can put a ducktail on the car (there are US kits) but I'd be concerned about aero balance when used properly - something I'd also want to understand before converting to a proper motorised lid. I think the air intakes on the Touring are quite different to the winged car, so it's not necessarily straightforward.

On the Lotus - which only occurred to me today - I have to say I'm tempted. I'm not bothered about how compromised it is as a road car as long as it's neither dangerous nor deafening. (My road-registered Cup car was both). I'm not planning to do any touring in it, or use it for fun on the road, so as long as I can stand getting to Spa or the 'ring in the thing, that'll be fine.

What really appeals about the Lotus is the relative inexpensiveness. If I do stick it in the wall, or put loads of miles on it, I'm not going to drop £100k.

On the other hand, I can't quite work out why I care about this. I'm not buying the car as an investment, and I've lost that kind of money on cars before. I suppose I'm just getting sensible in my old age.

I might arrange to try a Lotus just to see. I'll also drive a 3RS at some point, but broadly it's a GT Porsche on steroids, so I know what to expect. It's pretty clear that the .2 is materially better than the .1, so I know I'd have to get the .2 or suffer pangs of envy every time I saw someone with a .2 in the paddock.

[Porsche911R]

964Cup said:

Yes - but I can't find anyone offering to do it. You can put a ducktail on the car (there are US kits) but I'd be concerned about aero balance when used properly - something I'd also want to understand before converting to a proper motorised lid. I think the air intakes on the Touring are quite different to the winged car, so it's not necessarily straightforward.

On the Lotus - which only occurred to me today - I have to say I'm tempted. I'm not bothered about how compromised it is as a road car as long as it's neither dangerous nor deafening. (My road-registered Cup car was both). I'm not planning to do any touring in it, or use it for fun on the road, so as long as I can stand getting to Spa or the 'ring in the thing, that'll be fine.

What really appeals about the Lotus is the relative inexpensiveness. If I do stick it in the wall, or put loads of miles on it, I'm not going to drop £100k.

On the other hand, I can't quite work out why I care about this. I'm not buying the car as an investment, and I've lost that kind of money on cars before. I suppose I'm just getting sensible in my old age.

I might arrange to try a Lotus just to see. I'll also drive a 3RS at some point, but broadly it's a GT Porsche on steroids, so I know what to expect. It's pretty clear that the .2 is materially better than the .1, so I know I'd have to get the .2 or suffer pangs of envy every time I saw someone with a .2 in the paddock.

if you are worried about paddock envy then the WP RS .2 is the only car to buy and make it a PTS one :-)

if you enjoy driving and don't want to get involved with cock waving you need to get the manual winged GT3.

forget the touring, if you want the RS performance, not having the down force and having the extra drag and the 20 bhp loss you wont keep with your RS mates, which might be frustrating.

the winged manual GT3 has the lease drag and the most BHP to the wheels and the RAM air effect the touring misses with the down force the same as a 997.2 4.0 RS it's s true >200mph car.

even a stock gt3 just with TTX will out lap time a .2 RS.

but if you want the feel then the cup LCA really help the steering and feedback.

if you spend the full £180k you would have a stunning manual bespoke GT3 and if driven well would lap faster than any RS WP Automatic with all the feel and you get to use your brain and all 4 limbs :-).

https://youtu.be/2_QcQS0gVsk

no lacking PPF engine sounds either, these sound the bomb.

Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 3rd June 14:03

[964Cup]

Porsche911R said:

if you are worried about paddock envy then the WP RS .2 is the only car to buy and make it a PTS one :-)

Not that kind of envy. Better car envy, not more expensive car envy. Very much doubt the WP makes any real difference to lap times, but apparently the suspension and aero changes on the .2, more than the extra 20-odd HP. make for a significantly better package.

Porsche911R said:

if you enjoy driving and don't want to get involved with cock waving you need to get the manual winged GT3.

forget the touring, if you want the RS performance, not having the down force and having the extra drag and the 20 bhp loss you wont keep with your RS mates, which might be frustrating.

the winged manual GT3 has the lease drag and the most BHP to the wheels and the RAM air effect the touring misses with the down force the same as a 997.2 4.0 RS its true >200mph car.

even a stock gt3 just with TTX will out lap time a .2 RS.

but if you want the feel then the cup LCA really help the steering and feedback.

if you spend the full £180k you would have a stunning manual bespoke GT3 and if driven well would lap faster than any RS WP Automatic.

Not ignoring this option. Also quite like the idea of doing it bit-by-bit to get the feel of the improvements. But...you end up with a car worth a lot less than the sum of its parts, I suspect. And anyway, I need to adjust to this new world where Porsches are like Ferraris and people don't expect them to have been driven. Once upon a time 100k meant nicely run in. Now they're all garage queens, it appears. If I'm going to do a whole load of mods, I'd want to start with a cheaper car - something with miles on it, sofas and steels and so on, then change out the suspension, seats, put a cage in if there isn't one, ST carbons and so on. That means finding a 4.0 manual that someone has actually driven. Even in Germany they're still 140k EUR. Mind you, there are a couple of Tourings at around that price...

[footsoldier]

I have an Exige 430. Great fun to drive, and comfort is fine (not perfect...).
More reactive and old-school than a GT car, but a lot 'slower' in terms of lap times than you might expect.

Back too the old theme...if I was driving to Spa for a trackway or two, then home again, I'd bet on a GT3 making it without needing any remedial work, not so much on the Lotus. (stock specs)

[Porsche911R]

964Cup said:

Not ignoring this option. Also quite like the idea of doing it bit-by-bit to get the feel of the improvements. But...you end up with a car worth a lot less than the sum of its parts, I suspect. And anyway, I need to adjust to this new world where Porsches are like Ferraris and people don't expect them to have been driven. Once upon a time 100k meant nicely run in. Now they're all garage queens, it appears. If I'm going to do a whole load of mods, I'd want to start with a cheaper car - something with miles on it, sofas and steels and so on, then change out the suspension, seats, put a cage in if there isn't one, ST carbons and so on. That means finding a 4.0 manual that someone has actually driven. Even in Germany they're still 140k EUR. Mind you, there are a couple of Tourings at around that price...

bolt on mods on the 991.2 GT3 though and all would sell very well 2nd hand.

just doing the CUP LCA on my car has made a big difference to feel. but can be swapped back in 1 hour.

selling BBS wheels etc you would have people queuing up for the parts at 1/2 price.

that parts list would make an amazing car for about £175k and all just bolt on mods so back to stock very easy.

I know the touring has a place but I still don't get it without rear seats, so while it was a choice it was not popular new, circa 50 UK buyers, and a choice only good at list price imo. paying more now for a car which is not as good as the winged GT3 seems daft. I know the normal haters hate me saying that, but it is a lesser car that's just the spec of it. Great car with rear seats, and a odd choice with out imho, and not a popular car all told new.
just a choice new for the same price which I respect.

the involvement and enjoyment driving a manual is 2nd to none really.

[Dr S]

Porsche911R said:

if you spend the full £180k you would have a stunning manual bespoke GT3 and if driven well would lap faster than any RS WP Automatic with all the feel and you get to use your brain and all 4 limbs :-).

https://youtu.be/2_QcQS0gVsk

Looking at how much road space the driver gives up on the exit from Brünnchen, I'd not worry about the car's but more the driver's limit. The OP appears to be well versed in pedalling on track. Hence he will be well able to beat a winged, modded 3 with a Touring

[Porsche911R]

Dr S said:

Porsche911R said:

if you spend the full £180k you would have a stunning manual bespoke GT3 and if driven well would lap faster than any RS WP Automatic with all the feel and you get to use your brain and all 4 limbs :-).

https://youtu.be/2_QcQS0gVsk

Looking at how much road space the driver gives up on the exit from Brünnchen, I'd not worry about the car's but more the driver's limit. The OP appears to be well versed in pedalling on track. Hence he will be well able to beat a winged, modded 3 with a Touring

It's Manthey's own car in the link so I guess they don't know the track as well as you :-[)

a faster cars a faster car. and yes a faster drivers a faster driver that's pretty basic.

are any of those corner even "Brünnchen" ? I thought that was the bend with the most crashes and gravel trap on exit.

Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 3rd June 15:06

[Far Cough]

Having read all the above what you are after is going to be a compromise in more than 1 area. With your budget and the fact you stress that you want a bumper to bumper warranty and build quality that means it won't fall apart when driven as intended,I think there is only one manufacturer to consider. It's the one that makes the 991.2 GT3........
As has been mentioned,this is a great starting point and will deliver what you want and it will also be familiar to you being a "P" guy. Modifications can be done to enhance the experience or just to replace the consumables when they wear out. That's the rub. With a GT3 in either CS or RS spec,that is all you will be replacing ..... Consumables. The other mentioned manufacturers of McLaren and Lotus would concern me subjecting them to the use you talk about.

Putting lots of hard miles on a GT3 will no doubt effect its overall value but that's part of the game.

[Dr S]

Porsche911R said:

Dr S said:

Porsche911R said:

if you spend the full £180k you would have a stunning manual bespoke GT3 and if driven well would lap faster than any RS WP Automatic with all the feel and you get to use your brain and all 4 limbs :-).

https://youtu.be/2_QcQS0gVsk

Looking at how much road space the driver gives up on the exit from Brünnchen, I'd not worry about the car's but more the driver's limit. The OP appears to be well versed in pedalling on track. Hence he will be well able to beat a winged, modded 3 with a Touring

It's Manthey's own car in the link so I guess they don't know the track as well as you :-[)

a faster cars a faster car. and yes a faster drivers a faster driver that's pretty basic.

are any of those corner even "Brünnchen" ? I thought that was the bend with the most crashes and gravel trap on exit.

Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 3rd June 15:06

It may be Manthey's car but the driver still looses some time by turning into the righthander too far from the left curb/from the middle of the track. And yes, I do have extensive race experience on that track

Edited by Dr S on Thursday 4th June 07:28

[isaldiri]

Porsche911R said:

are any of those corner even "Brünnchen" ? I thought that was the bend with the most crashes and gravel trap on exit.

Ignorance truly is bliss I see.......

[Porsche911R]

isaldiri said:

Ignorance truly is bliss I see.......

I don't know bends name on the ring, so yes, I cannot even name a bend on my local track !

But some people had better get over to Manthey and start training their drivers it seems !