GT3 / 3RS / Touring

[964Cup]

Reluctant to get involved with handbags at dawn, but...here's my twopenn'orth.

A proper manual is more involving on the road. There is great pleasure in a well-executed shift, and a stronger sense of connection. The critical points are:

• One is rarely driving a road one knows as intimately as one does a track, so one is not seeking tenths.
• By the same token, the deliberation needed to choose a manual gear is part of decision making about cornering speed and strategy.
• If, on the road, one is driving fast enough that one risks missing a shift or upsetting the balance of the car, one is driving too fast.

A paddle-shift box, however, is better on the track.

• No corner is a surprise. Braking, gear changes are at predetermined points. One is absolutely seeking tenths.
• The ability to change gear without upsetting the balance of the car is of significant benefit - consider Woodcote at Silverstone, which is a mid-corner upshift in my 964RS while at the limit of grip. It is necessary to short-shift or one risks an unpleasant moment.
• Left-foot braking both provides an opportunity to save time and also a change in technique in balancing the car; this is not possible with a manual box.

[964Cup]

993rsr said:

You're seeking tenths on a track day?

I fear you've not been reading this thread.

Yes.

That's why I just bought a 991GT3 RS to use in place of my 964RS. It's also why I'm quite selective about which track days I do.

And why I'll probably end up racing again, despite my best intentions.

[964Cup]

Melvynr said:

Genuine question

Why can you not left foot brake in a manual, lots of guys do.Below is my fav footwork vid.


https://youtu.be/CaQNCR3qXzQ

Possibly I just lack talent. I suppose it also depends on your driving style - whether you do all your braking, and then change to the right gear for the corner, or change down as you brake. I do the latter, so in a manual I need to be able to operate the clutch while retaining pressure on the brake pedal.

I have left foot braked occasionally in a manual to balance the car, but that's light touches while staying in the same gear and often with some throttle. And I don't think I've ever done it in a 911 - mostly in FWD turbos to neutralise understeer while keeping the boost up.

[964Cup]

Well, the question in this thread has at least now been answered. Here's the new addition, with some of its stablemates to show the evolution of the breed:




First impressions?

The suspension is noisy - much squeaking from the valves over bumps - but it is the competition version of the KW kit. I may change it for the clubsport version, which will also work with the front lift.

Not having a front lift is a pain. I took the splitter off the moment I tried to reverse into our garage. It went back in, but I've ordered some ramps for the time being.

Not a torque-monster - you can tell that all the power is way up the rev range.

At the top end, though, the engine is quite something.

It stops extremely well (on STs, not PCCB) and seems to go round corners as well as I can tell on B-roads without being antisocial.

I'm still running more than 3 degrees of camber; the suspension has been raised a bit (but see above re: splitter) and the tyres are slightly overpressure to get a bit more contact patch with the camber where it is. So it's not really a road car, as expected. It's perfectly driveable, but not especially comfortable and quite camber and tramline sensitive. I suspect they're much better on stock suspension, but more compromised on circuit as a result.

I won't really know more until next week - Spa will tell me if I've made the right decision.

[964Cup]

ChrisW. said:

I've never been able to get to grips with left foot braking ... I just don't have the fine control that I feel I would need ...

I can understand this to keep the turbos spooled, but is it intended to have both the benefit of trail braking and power-on overseer ?

Two reasons to left-foot brake:

1. No need to move either foot (in a two-pedal car) so both safer and faster, as you save the hundredths per corner where you switch from brake to accelerator and back again.

2. With practice you can use light touches on the brake to adjust the attitude of the car while staying on the throttle, or backing off without completely backing out. This can keep turbos spooled, but it can also be more subtle than coming off the throttle.

I've done the latter in three-pedal cars, notably in underpowered FWD cars where you can dial out some understeer by finessing the brake while keeping the throttle buried.

[964Cup]

Porsche911R said:

I also find it impossible in a 3 pedal car to left foot brake to any level which would be an advantage, but on a PDK car very easy to to just have a foot on each pedal.
But I don’t call that left foot braking if you get what I mean.

Again to drive a manual car is very demanding and takes a lot more planning, skill and effort and thus far more rewarding as a hobby imo. It's not just dipping a clutch like some one has stated.
Quite a lot has to be done pre corner in a manual car vs a automatic car.

I am much faster driving an auto and I think that's why people do like them today, far easier to go fast with little effort or thought processing.

You just choose stop or go and every thing else is done for you if you know the lines.
While the USA love manuals, here in the UK not so much.

Threshold braking is imo the next main skill to practice and master for improved lap times, be it manual or PDK cars.

Something very over looked but imo the most important skill which sets apart the faster driver from the ave driver.

Edited by Porsche911R on Sunday 21st June 11:21

It's easier to learn if you don't have ABS, IMO. I learned to cadence brake in a 3.2 Carrera, then had to re-learn when we deleted the ABS from my Cup car. I found it relatively easy to find the threshold coming back to it after a long hiatus in my 964RS; it will be interesting to see if I can make the transition to the new car, which will have *much* higher braking limits (and cornering limits). I suspect I will be a good while getting up to speed.

[964Cup]

Yellow491 said:

No,i checked my car out yesterday and done a oil filter change ready for silverstone,the car has 1.5 deg all round,rake is ok ish and toes are fine,i dont want to spoil the road manners yet,so will see what the car is like on the 5th.I have however put the wing on max and removed the front trimmers as recommended by porsche to keep the balance, we will see
The dunlops looks to be worse than cups in the wet with the tread pattern!

I'm right in thinking that the whole front-end adjustability thing is a .2 innovation, yes? My car was originally a Dutch-delivered car, so I'm a bit short of English manuals. It looks like only the rear wing is adjustable on the .1 from what i can understand.

[964Cup]

if you want the manual experience, get a properly manual car. Nothing newer than a 3.2 Carrera. Preferably an earlier car with a 915; or get a 356 like mine - no power-assisted anything, no ABS, no springing in the gearbox. In fact, why not get a car with a crash box and an outside gear lever? Get one with a centre accelerator so you *really* have to think about it, or perhaps a car with no front brakes.

All modern cars have driver aids. Automatic gearboxes are just one of them. At the end of the day, you still have to decide when to brake, when to turn in, how to balance the car through the turn. That's what driving actually is.

I imagine I will have plenty to think about at Spa, even though my car apparently requires no skill to drive. In fact I suspect I may have more to think about than I would have had in the 64RS, since I'll be arriving at everything rather sooner...

[964Cup]

Gently bringing this thread back to its original purpose (or at least its new original purpose once I found out that RMA's Spa day was actually going ahead and I had to get my skates on)...

What do we think a good time looks like round Spa in a 1.GT3RS on Cup 2s? I find it slightly irritating that at least half the lap videos one can find are 12-year-olds on a playstation, not actual cars. Modern graphics are so good that it takes a moment to realise you're watching little Bradley work his thumbs while "dissing" someone else's mother over his headset. I suspect the 2:33's they boast of might be a little optimistic in the real world.

I'm going with 2:40 as a consensus really fast lap time on road tyres. The last time I drove Spa was twenty years ago in a 993RS Touring; I don't think I even had lap timing kit then, and if I did, I've long lost the files. So I think I'll be happy if I can get with 10% of 2:40 on day 1 - something like a 2:56. Does that sound reasonable?

[964Cup]

Dr S said:

If you know the track well and having race experience you should rather get within 5% without much effort, just by dialling into the car on day one.

I'm setting my ambition modestly. Haven't done this in a long time and new to the car. To give you an idea, when I did Silverstone earlier in the year I got a shock because the GP track had been completely re-arranged since I last drove it. First time round I kept thinking "where's Bridge?".

We'll see...

[964Cup]

Yellow491 said:

Ben,may be spa has changed since you were last there also,jump on a sim for a refresh.
Last time i was there racing in the masters historics in a 3.0ltr rsr on good tyres was a 2.50 qualy,mate in same type car went out on new tyres and banged in a 2.48,both on dunlop treaded historic spec tyres,so a modern car will be well with in this.
Cups go off fairly quickly for time hunting,from new 3 rd lap best and downhill from there,just keep it on the black stuff in that lovely purple motor.

I've got to learn the car anyway, so learning the circuit at the same time will be no hardship. I also have to remember how to drive at all. I have done one track day since 2005, and that was in my 964, in the wet. I did pack in quite a lot of circuit driving in the ten years prior to 2005, but who can remember that far back?

I have two days there, and won't be going for times on day 1.

[disclaimerincaseanyonefromRMAisreadingthis]it's a track day - I won't be going for times at all, of course[/disclaimer]

Tyres are fairly well used (and will have been driven there, too, so will be dirty for a while). I'm going to be happy with sub 3 mins on Thursday, and somewhere in the 2:50s on Friday. It's also going to be super-warm, apparently, so times will be slower. Assuming all is well and I get on with the car, I'm back in September and will try a bit harder then.

[964Cup]

Porsche911R said:

A nice lap, not pushing hard but competent and smooth and easy on the car, tyres and brakes.
That's a good aiming point time that to set a base for the guy visiting.

The issue I find in the EU is the standards are FAR higher, in the UK that lap would be top 10% drivers on the day and you would feel like a king and be very happy and not really have to be on your mirrors all the time, infact you would over take most cars driving to that standard.
In the EU people are just faster and don't obey the rules, you can be 3 abreast into a bend at Spa on a track day with these guys doing sub 2.40's.

But as the guys a racer that should be ok, 3 a breast on a track day was a shock to me into a bend.

So looking at the multiple laps and drivers a good driver at Spa is 2.45 and doable if you are used to track driving well.

Finding time sub 2.45 means car wear will be 4x the amount and you have to really push and think.

At donnington I can lap that track pretty well, say 5 seconds off the fastest laps and do it all day without thinking, to knock 2/3 seconds off that takes thinking power and I can do 2 or 3 laps at the faster pace but you do also have to be in that mood I find to want to really go for it. Also at the faster pace tyres just get hot and after a few FAST laps they go greesy any way.

These 2.36 laps are qually laps for you tube, cars preped, tyres heat cycled and perfect temps and you go straight out and do the lap in one.
The Tyres would not even do 3 laps at 2.36 imho esp the Dunlops, I got 1.5 laps at Spa from my Dunlops before they over heated !! 2 laps = 65oc tyres and they were useless, also they picked up so much rubber due to the heat that really killed performance later in the day, Dunlops suck imo.
My mate has only Super Sports road tyres had zero issues doing 4 or 5 laps at a go.

While I am chasing lap times, I'm not chasing a trip into the armco or a broken car, hence my relatively modest expectations for times. I found at Silverstone in the 964RS, on a cool day, Cup2s worked best in 5-lap stints - out, warm-up, two hot, cool-down. Trying for a third lap tended to be slower and looser. I'm expecting better use of the tyres in the GT3 because of better suspension, but it's also going to be much hotter, so I may do only one hot lap per stint, and go for four-lap bursts. There's no point pushing on wilting tyres - it's not a race.

[964Cup]

nebpor said:

Did every 96RS have a roll cage? I seem to remember from my old Bookatrack days that they would only let you run on slicks if you had a cage - that's funny if even with a cage it groaned under the stress

When I bought my race-prepped DC2 ITR it came with slicks, I didn't ever get round to trying them on a track day - wiser heads kept telling me that when a car on slicks lets go, it really lets go, and that I should stay on road tyres

That's funny - I always thought the opposite. I did most of my track days and (wet races apart) all of my races on slicks, with one exception which ended very badly indeed. I always felt that slicks were more predictable than road tyres, particularly as they wore. I am 20 years out of date, though - the grip in my 964RS at Silverstone on Cup 2s was a world away from how I remember road tyres behaving back in the day.

[964Cup]

Not ideal. I failed to listen to my own advice. Pushed hard from session 2, got into the mid 2:40s quite quickly, then ran out of tyres or (more likely) talent and had an unscheduled interface with a tyre wall.The car ran wide on the exit of double-gauche, as it had been doing previously, but rather than just taking the kerb it drifted onto the gravel and spun across the track. I should have known better and aborted the lap I was on earlier, but was trying to stay with a well-driven .2 out of misplaced pride, and I'd missed neither apex nor gone in hotter than the previous lap.

The car was fast, but I couldn't find predictable grip on the limit. I ran with the ESC on for the first few sessions, but was advised by all and sundry that I risked cooking my brakes, so disabled it. That seemed fine until I started to really push again, then I kept finding unexpected loss of grip, especially at the rear. It was hot that day, but not baking, and I would have expected more progressive behaviour from the Cup 2s. I left TC on the whole time, so this wasn't about cooking the tyres by spinning them; they just overheated, I think, despite having been repeatedly bled down to keep the hot pressures in what I had been advised was the optimum range - in the session where I fell off the island I'd run longer.

I suspect the fault is mostly mine, for being rusty and for trying too hard too soon in a new car, despite what I told myself I would do. That said, I'm not convinced that the KW v3 suspension worked optimally once it had been adjusted from its original very aggressive setup into something that could be driven there. It's the race version, not the fast road/clubsport version and I think it needs all the camber and toe to get the best from the tyres. Anyway, racing driver's book of excuses nos. 23, 64 and 117.

The damage to the car was somewhere on the more serious end of superficial - enough to stop me driving it further. I'm back in the UK, so is the car, and I'll get the butcher's bill later this week.

I'll be back, as Arnie says, but chastened. I've clearly forgotten more than I thought, or grown up less than I hoped...

[964Cup]

hunter 66 said:

Pressures can got up quickly on a hot day , especially the rears ,which leads to reduced used grip , this is more so on the Dunlops .
Sorry about small excursion ,bu should have know about chasing another car ...next time . A number are going to SS on Sunday for some light running.

Yes - I was shooting for 30psi f/r throughout, but seeing 32. Still not high. For me it was more about the unpredictability, which might well have had something to do with track surface temps and or picking up marbles from the kerbs.

The car was, for example, mighty through Eau Rouge - comfortably entering at >160kph, really stable throughout and 177-180kph through the exit. It was flat through the left-hand curve of Blanchimont, which is as you know massively fast, and I had no trouble hitting the apexes at Pouhon.

Looking at the map again, and recalling the incident report (I've not had the balls to look at the video yet) I think this was actually Campus, not Pouhon - I'd been running onto the kerb on the exit towards Stavelot every time, but this time the car found no grip at all and went all the way across onto the gravel, at which point I was a passenger. Presumably too much heat in the RH tyres from Pouhon combined with a hot track surface and marbles on the kerb. It wasn't oversteer (until I hit the gravel), just overall lack of grip sending the car too wide. Possibly if I'd had the brains to get off the throttle earlier I might have been able to ride the gravel out and had a reasonable chance of stopping before hitting the wall at Stavelot, but once it got loose on the gravel it was the typical hard left turn across to the opposite side of the track, glancing front and then RHS impact. Tyre wall, not armco, so really not too bad but minor rad damage and the steering was knocked out, so end of play.

Of course if I'd had those brains, I might have had the brains to go easier on the throttle through the second half of Campus in the first place...

[964Cup]

Dr S said:

Sorry to hear about your off!
Looks like your unfriendly encounter with the tire wall was caused by sharply deteriorating Cup 2s. It may also be worth checking whether you had any form of pickup on them which could have caused a substantial change in grip levels. Given you pushed hard and did most likely not move off the racing line, it is not very likely though

I think marbles on the outside of the kerb at the exit of Campus may well have been an issue, once I'd already drifted too far off line.

If I was apportioning blame (I'm not) I'd take 50% of it for not being a proper grown-up and reining myself in the way I claimed I would. I had a 2:47 on my sixth hot lap of the day in a car I don't know at all on a circuit I've not driven in 20 years, having claimed I'd be happy to get under 3:00 on day 1 (I was under 3:00 on lap 1). I got down into the 2:44s, then started to go slower - a key sign that the track was too hot, the tyres were too hot, I was too hot. But instead of backing off 10% and spending the time learning the car and the circuit I kept pushing and paid for it.

The other 50% can be shared between the setup - which I was unconvinced by from the outset - and the conditions. Genuinely astonishing in very fast corners (a real feeling of your balls sucking up into your body going through Blanchimont, but the car never blinked), and great turn in, but unpredictable in medium speed corners. Part of that I think is the lack of torque (or maybe the TC?) meaning that you don't quite have the sensation of the limits of rear grip as you accelerate out. The track temp definitely didn't help either.

Anyway, chalk it up to another learning experience. I've only ever had two contacts with the wall in my whole track history, and both of them came down to failure to manage tyres properly. Tellingly the last one ended my racing "career" - it's a long story, but essentially I ended up doing a race on unsuitable tyres, cooked the brakes and hit the tyre wall on the outside of the Shell hairpin at Oulton at significant speed. I'm not going to let this one put me off. (Although I expect it will put my insurers off...).

[964Cup]

Yellow491 said:

Sorry to hear it ben,i also remember shell corner i was in the same race ,great parking that was

Well, I did win the first two races on the day, so it wasn't all bad...

The resulting effect on my ego might possibly have contributed to the ridiculous decision to borrow Stephen A's road wheels (the ones he'd driven up on) to race in that all-comers thing after I realised it was for treaded tyres and I didn't have any. Funny how rock-hard 888s don't really compete with cut slicks. I should have just scratched; instead I overdrove like I have never overdriven before, the pedal went to the floor at the kink (the friction material had come off the pads on both fronts) and that was the end of that.

[964Cup]

RSVP911 said:

Looking for a manual 991.2 GT3 CS, PCCB in Agate / Crayon / Black or GTSM - please pm if you have one lying about that you don’t want - cheers

Porsche South London had one on SOR when I was looking. Chap decided to keep it, but you might try to twist his arm. I was talking to Rob Pearce there.

[964Cup]

RSVP911 said:

Cheers - what colour was it

Crayon.