Cayman GTS/GT4 & 911 GTS/GT3 vs Lotus Exige Sport 380
Discussion
Porsche911R said:
I said I was happy for you, it matters not if it's 5k or 5.3k revs :-)
I am really happy you find full enjoyment from your car and it’s 100% perfect in every way.
I envy that as after 80 odd cars and thousands of ££££ over 35 years I am yet to find perfection. And my journey is still on going.
One day I,ll do a project and build something More bespoke.
Go for it, but again you've miss quoted me. I am really happy you find full enjoyment from your car and it’s 100% perfect in every way.
I envy that as after 80 odd cars and thousands of ££££ over 35 years I am yet to find perfection. And my journey is still on going.
One day I,ll do a project and build something More bespoke.
Massive thread drift!
The Exige is great fun on the road, it's a mini-exotic in looks and gets lots of attention but remains basic and pared back. Lack of power steering means it's a workout when pushing on but the steering feel is amazing (like all Lotuses). It sort of "flows with the road" when you get up to speed due to the lack of weight and the resultant less aggressive suspension set up. The lack of weight and the abundance of torque mean you can enjoy it without needing to rev it hard either. But obvs you still have that option and it's a good engine with a pleasing exhaust note. Very analogue but very rewarding. Its relative lack of width means it can be placed very accurately on B roads in particular which gives you options. You mentioned road driving only in which case I think an Evora is a better all-round proposition out of the Lotus range. The steering and ride/handling balance are even better than the Exige IMO.
Cayman GT4 is similarly exciting but in a more grown-up sort of way. The Suspension never runs out of ideas on even the most challenging of roads but it's a bit on the firm side (albeit very well damped). The ePAS has great feel and the car turns in really faithfully. The engine is good (have only owned the 981) but relative to other Porsches it's a bit strangled and the chassis could easily handle more power. it's a good entry level Porsche GT product but a bit unfair to compare it against a GT3 in some ways. Interestingly I've driven the GT4 extensively back-to-back with a manual 991.1 GTS in the Highlands of Scotland where the roads are very testing - same engine in a different state of tune. For road driving I preferred the GTS (just!) - the engine revs more freely and the softer suspension and road tyres were more suited to the conditions.
I realise you didn't ask this but the track is really the only place where you can really access the talents of the GT cars and the Exige cars,. Both the GT4 and Exige are blessed with exceptional chassis balance. The GT4 possibly has too much grip for the road if you like a car to move around you. Conversely if you like the confidence that a unstickable set up brings, you'll probably love the GT4.
The Exige is great fun on the road, it's a mini-exotic in looks and gets lots of attention but remains basic and pared back. Lack of power steering means it's a workout when pushing on but the steering feel is amazing (like all Lotuses). It sort of "flows with the road" when you get up to speed due to the lack of weight and the resultant less aggressive suspension set up. The lack of weight and the abundance of torque mean you can enjoy it without needing to rev it hard either. But obvs you still have that option and it's a good engine with a pleasing exhaust note. Very analogue but very rewarding. Its relative lack of width means it can be placed very accurately on B roads in particular which gives you options. You mentioned road driving only in which case I think an Evora is a better all-round proposition out of the Lotus range. The steering and ride/handling balance are even better than the Exige IMO.
Cayman GT4 is similarly exciting but in a more grown-up sort of way. The Suspension never runs out of ideas on even the most challenging of roads but it's a bit on the firm side (albeit very well damped). The ePAS has great feel and the car turns in really faithfully. The engine is good (have only owned the 981) but relative to other Porsches it's a bit strangled and the chassis could easily handle more power. it's a good entry level Porsche GT product but a bit unfair to compare it against a GT3 in some ways. Interestingly I've driven the GT4 extensively back-to-back with a manual 991.1 GTS in the Highlands of Scotland where the roads are very testing - same engine in a different state of tune. For road driving I preferred the GTS (just!) - the engine revs more freely and the softer suspension and road tyres were more suited to the conditions.
I realise you didn't ask this but the track is really the only place where you can really access the talents of the GT cars and the Exige cars,. Both the GT4 and Exige are blessed with exceptional chassis balance. The GT4 possibly has too much grip for the road if you like a car to move around you. Conversely if you like the confidence that a unstickable set up brings, you'll probably love the GT4.
I owned a 981 GT4 until a couple of months ago. I recently test drove some Lotuses and then a 718 GTS 4.0.
Here are my thoughts on the test drives, posted on another motoring forum:
https://themotorforum.co.uk/thread/2227/trio-cars
https://themotorforum.co.uk/thread/2237/litres-mid...
For me - it'd either be an Exige 410, Evora GT410, Cayman GTS 4.0 or either GT4 depending on exactly what you want.
I have now got a GTS 4.0 on order.
Hope it helps the OP.
Here are my thoughts on the test drives, posted on another motoring forum:
https://themotorforum.co.uk/thread/2227/trio-cars
https://themotorforum.co.uk/thread/2237/litres-mid...
For me - it'd either be an Exige 410, Evora GT410, Cayman GTS 4.0 or either GT4 depending on exactly what you want.
I have now got a GTS 4.0 on order.
Hope it helps the OP.
Heathrow said:
Massive thread drift!
I realise you didn't ask this but the track is really the only place where you can really access the talents of the GT cars and the Exige cars,. Conversely if you like the confidence that a unstickable set up brings, you'll probably love the GT4.
Very helpful, thank you! I definitely prefer the unstickable feeling and the confidence it brings. The problem would be the ground clearance of the GT4: if only it had front-axle lift.I realise you didn't ask this but the track is really the only place where you can really access the talents of the GT cars and the Exige cars,. Conversely if you like the confidence that a unstickable set up brings, you'll probably love the GT4.
Stunters said:
For me - it'd either be an Exige 410, Evora GT410, Cayman GTS 4.0 or either GT4 depending on exactly what you want.
I have now got a GTS 4.0 on order.
Great reads! Can you elaborate a bit on the GTS 4.0 sound? I heard the 718 GT4 on cold start and it did sound good but there's no GTS 4.0 demo available at the moment that I can take for a test drive.I have now got a GTS 4.0 on order.
Any thoughts on how the GTS 4.0 compares while on the move against something like an F80 M3/F82 M4/ M850i / F90 M5 / M2 (OG or CP) which I'm more familiar with?
Bear in mind that a Cayman will be 150-200kg lighter than your BMW. The Exige will be 200+ kg lighter again. And an Elise 150-200kg lighter still!
If you were impressed by how much difference less weight made, and you want prioritise feel/fun over ultimate pace, a Cayman GTS isn't going to be a great deal different from your previous car.
Whereas an Exige, supercharged Elise or indeed an Alpine will give you much more of what you say you're looking for.
If you were impressed by how much difference less weight made, and you want prioritise feel/fun over ultimate pace, a Cayman GTS isn't going to be a great deal different from your previous car.
Whereas an Exige, supercharged Elise or indeed an Alpine will give you much more of what you say you're looking for.
GTS 4.0 sound is a little agricultural at low revs - even a bit rattly and dieselly if you were being very unkind.
It's only at idle though. Once you have some revs on, you can play a variety of tunes with the engine and there's plenty of good mechanical noise within the cabin.
The 981 GT4 is much louder, but the noise is more one-dimensional. Both cars have good engine noise, and better than the Evora 410 in my opinion. Exige noise is good too - quite loud, very mechanical, muted supercharger whine overlay at higher revs.
Horses for courses, no 'bad' choice in any of those cars
It's only at idle though. Once you have some revs on, you can play a variety of tunes with the engine and there's plenty of good mechanical noise within the cabin.
The 981 GT4 is much louder, but the noise is more one-dimensional. Both cars have good engine noise, and better than the Evora 410 in my opinion. Exige noise is good too - quite loud, very mechanical, muted supercharger whine overlay at higher revs.
Horses for courses, no 'bad' choice in any of those cars
c3m said:
Any thoughts on how the GTS 4.0 compares while on the move against something like an F80 M3/F82 M4/ M850i / F90 M5 / M2 (OG or CP) which I'm more familiar with?
I haven't driven any of the newer M cars, but I have owned an E90 M3 since 2009 and used to own an E46 M3.Compared to any M3, the Cayman will feel smaller, nimbler, and more immediate absolutely everywhere. Mid-engined cars suit certain driving styles better than others - they absolutely suit mine - so you'll either think it's the best thing since sliced bread to drive immediately, or you'll need to adapt your style to get the most out of it.
As a point of reference, I tend to drive my M3 in a smoother and more deliberate manner (slower in, faster out, more progressive on corner exit) and ensure that the car is well balanced before applying significant power or steering angle. In the Cayman I drive it more on the nose, carrying greater speed into and through the corners.
I can make effortless very rapid progress in the M3, it rewards a calmer driving style. In the Cayman it rewards just about any driving style!
You can (and will) sit quite a bit lower in the car too, which adds to the sense of speed and drama.
The biggest difference for me is what you have already pointed out - weight and therefore nimbleness/agility. If you prefer B-roads on a Sunday morning then the Exige *just* about ticks more boxes for me than a 981 or 991 GT3:
More agile and quicker to change direction, better steering, better braking although braking on a GT3 is very progressive and easy to modulate too.
In terms of balance then an Exige is quite similar to a 911 in some ways. There is turn-in understeer to manage in both that you just don't get in a 981 (or M car). Also if you have relatively smooth inputs you can forget the fact that there is so much weight behind you, but more erratic inputs will highlight it.
I think all of them are quite similar in suspension compliance i.e. quite a firm ride with minimal roll. So a poor B-road surface is going to be very noticeable. I would try to get an Exige with adjustable suspension, although my V6 on its softest settings can still be quite jarring at times. I believe the newer 410 improves things for the road especially with the sound insulation and carpets providing a bit more civility.
Engine in the GT3 of course stands above the others. Nothing wrong with the Exige unit, but it only revs to ~7000. I also found the exhaust note doesn't sound great from in the car, but really good from outside.
Things like throttle response I find better on the Porsche cars. In particular, I prefer how their cars react when you come off throttle.
The gearbox on the Exige is okay and it is all flick of the wrist. But it's looser than the action on the 987 Cayman short-shift and less mechanical and solid feeling. Plenty of comment about gear ratios etc. elsewhere.
I would add that there are some nice weight transitions to be found in a 991 GT3 as the weight moves around and the car settles into its suspension. But I have personally found that you sometimes need to slow down a little and match your pace with the 'frequency' of the road otherwise they get lost very quickly. And the Exige's I have driven are less communicative in this regard.
As others have said the Exige is really at home on track where it feels like it is on rails. I would imagine that something like an Elise is better suited for the road or even an Evora or Alpine. What sets the last two apart is there is a bit more compliance and movement in the chassis, which is really what you want on UK roads.
And as someone noted in a different thread, a bit of front-end roll can give you useful information about the grip you have at the front even if the steering itself does not relay masses of feedback. The one thing I dislike about 991 GT3 steering is that there is virtually zero feedback in the wet, and the 981 is going to be the same.
More agile and quicker to change direction, better steering, better braking although braking on a GT3 is very progressive and easy to modulate too.
In terms of balance then an Exige is quite similar to a 911 in some ways. There is turn-in understeer to manage in both that you just don't get in a 981 (or M car). Also if you have relatively smooth inputs you can forget the fact that there is so much weight behind you, but more erratic inputs will highlight it.
I think all of them are quite similar in suspension compliance i.e. quite a firm ride with minimal roll. So a poor B-road surface is going to be very noticeable. I would try to get an Exige with adjustable suspension, although my V6 on its softest settings can still be quite jarring at times. I believe the newer 410 improves things for the road especially with the sound insulation and carpets providing a bit more civility.
Engine in the GT3 of course stands above the others. Nothing wrong with the Exige unit, but it only revs to ~7000. I also found the exhaust note doesn't sound great from in the car, but really good from outside.
Things like throttle response I find better on the Porsche cars. In particular, I prefer how their cars react when you come off throttle.
The gearbox on the Exige is okay and it is all flick of the wrist. But it's looser than the action on the 987 Cayman short-shift and less mechanical and solid feeling. Plenty of comment about gear ratios etc. elsewhere.
I would add that there are some nice weight transitions to be found in a 991 GT3 as the weight moves around and the car settles into its suspension. But I have personally found that you sometimes need to slow down a little and match your pace with the 'frequency' of the road otherwise they get lost very quickly. And the Exige's I have driven are less communicative in this regard.
As others have said the Exige is really at home on track where it feels like it is on rails. I would imagine that something like an Elise is better suited for the road or even an Evora or Alpine. What sets the last two apart is there is a bit more compliance and movement in the chassis, which is really what you want on UK roads.
And as someone noted in a different thread, a bit of front-end roll can give you useful information about the grip you have at the front even if the steering itself does not relay masses of feedback. The one thing I dislike about 991 GT3 steering is that there is virtually zero feedback in the wet, and the 981 is going to be the same.
c3m said:
I've recently had the pleasure to do the PalmerSport Full Day and the Porsche GT3 Experience at the Silverstone PEC (991.2 GT3RS, 991.1 GT3, 997 GT3RS, 992.1 Carrera). After driving some lightweight cars, including the F3000 single seater, I've been absolutely gobsmacked by how much difference the weight makes to how a car feels. The way the light cars break and turn is incredible: my (now sold) M4 CP felt like a boat afterwards.
I was wondering if anyone has driven the more hardcore Exiges (e.g., Sport 380) and have an idea how they compare against a Cayman GTS / GT4 (981 and 718) and 991 GTS/GT3s. The part that I do not like about the Lotus is the build quality/interior quality.
I'm not looking for speed/pace but rather feel/fun at road legal-ish speeds. I will not be tracking the car.
I wouldn't bother asking on here, go get yourself a test drive in one, we all like different flavours. I was wondering if anyone has driven the more hardcore Exiges (e.g., Sport 380) and have an idea how they compare against a Cayman GTS / GT4 (981 and 718) and 991 GTS/GT3s. The part that I do not like about the Lotus is the build quality/interior quality.
I'm not looking for speed/pace but rather feel/fun at road legal-ish speeds. I will not be tracking the car.
My 2p - imagine the Lotus would make a great 2nd or 3rd car and a better drive than the Porsches. But I weighed this up and went for a Porsche, albeit not the exact models you are thinking of.
Another 2p, IMHO and all that, you shoudl try tracking any of these cars. Unless you are a driving god, I don't think one can safely exploit them on the road. And its only when you get to the limit that you start to find what a chassis is really all about.
c3m said:
Great reads! Can you elaborate a bit on the GTS 4.0 sound? I heard the 718 GT4 on cold start and it did sound good but there's no GTS 4.0 demo available at the moment that I can take for a test drive.
Any thoughts on how the GTS 4.0 compares while on the move against something like an F80 M3/F82 M4/ M850i / F90 M5 / M2 (OG or CP) which I'm more familiar with?
The F80 M3CS is the best M3 BMW have made, 460 hp out of the box. It is a special limited edition model of 1200 worldwide with just 100 released in the UK, you could not spec the car as the 100 were specced by BMW in four colours and you had to go on a list to obtain one. The M4 CS was not a limited run and you could spec from the factory.Any thoughts on how the GTS 4.0 compares while on the move against something like an F80 M3/F82 M4/ M850i / F90 M5 / M2 (OG or CP) which I'm more familiar with?
The one I ordered had the full spec inc the ccb and San Marino Metalic which was amazing in the different light, the cost was 95k which I paid 88k , plus they gave me the MPE Titanium exhaust as they made a mess over there advertising it as a Titanium exhaust, when I accepted there offer they changed the advertising overnight to a stainless exhaust system with Titanium tips.
I had it just three weeks and tuned it with the BM3 Stage 1, that put the power up to approx 530hp and a lot more torque, the car handled like a dream with it and showed they could have put 500hp straight away into it, but like so many manufacturers they would not have liked to make it the same hp as there M4 GTS flagship.
I haven't looked on the BMW approved website lately, but I would say you would pick one up with ccb and very low miles or even pre-reg delivery miles for around 65k. They were overpriced from the launch, now they will be pretty depreciation proof.
Edited by Melvynr on Thursday 24th September 19:48
Melvynr said:
The F80 M3CS is the best M3 BMW have made, 460 hp out of the box. It is a special limited edition model of 1200 worldwide with just 100 released in the UK, you could not spec the car as the 100 were specced by BMW in four colours and you had to go on a list to obtain one. The M4 CS was not a limited run and you could spec from the factory.
The one I ordered had the full spec inc the ccb and San Marino Metalic which was amazing in the different light, the cost was 95k which I paid 88k , plus they gave me the MPE Titanium exhaust as they made a mess over there advertising it as a Titanium exhaust, when I accepted there offer they changed the advertising overnight to a stainless exhaust system with Titanium tips.
I had it just three weeks and tuned it with the BM3 Stage 1, that put the power up to approx 530hp and a lot more torque, the car handled like a dream with it and showed they could have put 500hp straight away into it, but like so many manufacturers they would not have liked to make it the same hp as there M4 GTS flagship.
I haven't looked on the BMW approved website lately, but I would say you would pick one up with ccb and very low miles or even pre-reg delivery miles for around 65k. They were overpriced from the launch, now they will be pretty depreciation proof.
/var/folders/mn/sv8gqv1x0z7_vf78b60052n80000gn/T/com.apple.iChat/Messages/Transfers/M3CS_All_Details_E.pdf
Best M3 made, not sure about that. I'd say CSL.The one I ordered had the full spec inc the ccb and San Marino Metalic which was amazing in the different light, the cost was 95k which I paid 88k , plus they gave me the MPE Titanium exhaust as they made a mess over there advertising it as a Titanium exhaust, when I accepted there offer they changed the advertising overnight to a stainless exhaust system with Titanium tips.
I had it just three weeks and tuned it with the BM3 Stage 1, that put the power up to approx 530hp and a lot more torque, the car handled like a dream with it and showed they could have put 500hp straight away into it, but like so many manufacturers they would not have liked to make it the same hp as there M4 GTS flagship.
I haven't looked on the BMW approved website lately, but I would say you would pick one up with ccb and very low miles or even pre-reg delivery miles for around 65k. They were overpriced from the launch, now they will be pretty depreciation proof.
/var/folders/mn/sv8gqv1x0z7_vf78b60052n80000gn/T/com.apple.iChat/Messages/Transfers/M3CS_All_Details_E.pdf
I’ve had an Elise for 20 years and 50k very hard miles, no issues whatsoever.
I’ve had and Exige 360 Cup for 18k hard miles, no issues whatsoever.
The door shut/trim etc is a bit 1970s, but they are light, precise, quick and jolly good fun. The Exige feels seriously fast.
I always wear earplugs as this elevates the experience to almost acceptable. Mostly very positive response from fellow road users and still rare enough to feel special. Not suited to daily use, but for a Sunday morning ( which is genuinely most of my use ) I cannot think what could be better.
They are basic, but in my experience very durable - Don’t instantly believe the internet.
I’ve had and Exige 360 Cup for 18k hard miles, no issues whatsoever.
The door shut/trim etc is a bit 1970s, but they are light, precise, quick and jolly good fun. The Exige feels seriously fast.
I always wear earplugs as this elevates the experience to almost acceptable. Mostly very positive response from fellow road users and still rare enough to feel special. Not suited to daily use, but for a Sunday morning ( which is genuinely most of my use ) I cannot think what could be better.
They are basic, but in my experience very durable - Don’t instantly believe the internet.
MannyLon said:
Need to know how to drive it. Once you get the hang of it, it’s a very rewarding car. It has a cult following and prices are going up.
Don't understand how you need to know how to drive it, you put it in gear and away you go. There will be better tyres on them now as well than the semi slicks they were launched with.NA engine is a masterpiece and no doubt attribute to the resale value. It may have a cult following, but that doesn't mean they are the best M3. Take the E92 GTS, the last one I saw for sale was for 135k, they don't come onto the market.It's good to see people have different opinions. Cheers.
Melvynr said:
MannyLon said:
Need to know how to drive it. Once you get the hang of it, it’s a very rewarding car. It has a cult following and prices are going up.
Don't understand how you need to know how to drive it, you put it in gear and away you go. There will be better tyres on them now as well than the semi slicks they were launched with.NA engine is a masterpiece and no doubt attribute to the resale value. It may have a cult following, but that doesn't mean they are the best M3. Take the E92 GTS, the last one I saw for sale was for 135k, they don't come onto the market.It's good to see people have different opinions. Cheers.
ok here we go....
being a BMW fan and OWNING the CSL as a daily and the V8's comps etc
I also own a M4 DTM, as the M4 was the new proper M3 really, no 4 doors a real M car hence the M4 took over the 2 door M car king status.
The last one being the the 450BHP orange GTS models where there is only 7 in the UK and ONE ON CC atm ! yum yum
The DTM is rare, much rarer than any porker these days, with only 22 UK models (less now as some have been exported to Hongkong)
So out the box my car has a real 500bhp, 3 way coilovers, CCB, Forged wheels, Carbon every thing, Roll cage, Full Recaro buckets, Ti exhaust, Carbon drive shafts, carbon doors and it listed at £136k. The GT2 RS of BMW land and every thing BMW can throw at the car. EVEN OLED lights at £6k !!
And it scares the life out of me to drive it, it's 80% GT4 race car. makes a CS look and feel a bit tame to be honest.
And I think still holds BMW's fastest car at the ring time.
I bet neither of you have even heard of it. lol
https://www.bmw-m.com/en/topics/magazine-article-p...
just sayin.
As for which M is best e30 M3 Sport EVO maybe. fastest well the one I own of course. I did love my CSL and the V8 era engine was wonderous but the small tank and VERY low mpg pissed me right off.
Had to be me though :-) petrol for blood ....
ps you do HAVE TO lean the CSL, it takes a while to gel with that box and settings, mode 4 over 5 and a throttle lift like a manual worked best.
BMW make great drivers cars. well did, the new ones ruined !! but that little M2 CS is a hoot.
Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 24th September 20:58
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