Are 997 gen 1 / gen 2s over priced?
Discussion
I went to Strasse at Leeds that usually do all our Porsche work . (previously Ben at Formulae Fuchs in Ollerton).
They have always done major jobs and been keenly priced. In this case i elected to have a full engine rebuilt but with 3 new cylinder liners and pistons. The rings were replaced in the other bank. Its a gamble but there was no wear at all in the other side and we felt there might be another 50k before another refresh.
7 grand. that included new crossover coolant pipes and other upgrades inc bearing upgrade and lower temp thermostat. Pulls like a train and deploys full 350 on a dyno.
"hopefully " the mods made to engine will help with the cooling of rebuilt bank and i thought if it doesn't work out i just rebuild again. Strasse didnt pressure me to do both sides. 9000 miles later i have no issues.
Not advising you take that route but our car gets its neck wrung on Derbyshire back roads and i stand by the 7 grand saving so far.
They have always done major jobs and been keenly priced. In this case i elected to have a full engine rebuilt but with 3 new cylinder liners and pistons. The rings were replaced in the other bank. Its a gamble but there was no wear at all in the other side and we felt there might be another 50k before another refresh.
7 grand. that included new crossover coolant pipes and other upgrades inc bearing upgrade and lower temp thermostat. Pulls like a train and deploys full 350 on a dyno.
"hopefully " the mods made to engine will help with the cooling of rebuilt bank and i thought if it doesn't work out i just rebuild again. Strasse didnt pressure me to do both sides. 9000 miles later i have no issues.
Not advising you take that route but our car gets its neck wrung on Derbyshire back roads and i stand by the 7 grand saving so far.
magic Monkey Dust said:
...In this case i elected to have a full engine rebuilt but with 3 new cylinder liners and pistons. The rings were replaced in the other bank. Its a gamble but there was no wear at all in the other side and we felt there might be another 50k before another refresh...
A man after my own heart and what I feel is the right approach towards these issues. Of course it was a financially risky gamble in some respects. I made a second best choice (possibly) to save money.
But the rebuild was from the bare block back with all new items like timing chain and simply included reuse of 3 pistons and 3 titivated bores.
If i don't get the next 50,000 miles i will probably roll my eyes and walk to the pub for more than 5 pints and reset.
What i wont do is cry and buy a Taycan.
Lovely piece of kit BUT the roar of my sports exhaust equipped 997 lures me back for another beating from a Ferry Porsches flat 6.For the same reason as i always order a chicken Madras. I love chicken Madras.
But the rebuild was from the bare block back with all new items like timing chain and simply included reuse of 3 pistons and 3 titivated bores.
If i don't get the next 50,000 miles i will probably roll my eyes and walk to the pub for more than 5 pints and reset.
What i wont do is cry and buy a Taycan.
Lovely piece of kit BUT the roar of my sports exhaust equipped 997 lures me back for another beating from a Ferry Porsches flat 6.For the same reason as i always order a chicken Madras. I love chicken Madras.
braddo said:
You need to take note of the real-world costs that are being mentioned on this thread if you want something mechanically perfect plus with styling mods. Your estimate is way undercooked. A cheap car plus what you want to budget for is £40k+,
Yeh I think it was more just the major thing getting changed (engine) spending with minimal tasteful mods, (2-3k). Any additional mods can happen slowly. It was just to ensure the car when I drive it is 100% performance from an engine perspective.Anyway to be honest I think I need to rethink it. I’m just going wait and get into 997.2 rather than get into 997.1 when I know they’ll always be that niggle in back of my mind.
RiccardoG said:
OP, you've gone down the rabbit hole of assuming you WILL need an engine rebuild. This is a bad place to be. I know, I was there in 2001 with my 964. I assumed it would need one, sold it in the end (also for other reasons, but the thought niggled me every time I was in it). And, unless its already broken, no vendor will agree with you, so you WILL be disappointed when searching.
Genuinely suggest you don't get a 997. If you're used to a new-ish BMW a 15yr old 911 will be several times more expensive to run (if not to own, as depreciation is very low).
Yeh I’m kinda thinking that now. I think I’ll just wait to save a bit more and get a minter of a 997.2Genuinely suggest you don't get a 997. If you're used to a new-ish BMW a 15yr old 911 will be several times more expensive to run (if not to own, as depreciation is very low).
Filibuster said:
OP, I have told you before, that you are overthinking this.
As RiccardoG has stated correctly, you assume from the very beginning that a non rebuilt 996/997 will need an engine revision. Maybe, maybe not.
The failure rate is not 100%. It might be high, but without wanting to start an argument about exact numbers that probably no one will be able to provide, it is a fact that not every M96/7 needs a rebuild @100k miles.
And your milkmaid bill that the value of every 997 need to factor in the cost of a rebuilt and thus every 997.1 that hasn't had one prior is £10k to high is simply wrong. Common sense as well as the market values clearly show this.
Expecting a 997.1 to be cheaper than they already are is wishful thinking. Compare the blue Portiacraft 997.2 C2 and the CC 997.1 C2: They have comparable mileage and are essentially the same car. The blue one is almost double the price!
While I'm 100% with you regarding non oem installs, those parrot display usually are just stock on and the cable is routed between the air vent and the dash. And if you really cared, why didn't you ask the seller?
It honestly sounds as if the 997.1 is not the car that makes you happy.
At this point, I have to refrain from my earlier advice of just buying a 997 if this is what you want. I think you would honestly worry too much to enjoy the car.
I haven't read every post of yours, but have you driven a 997? What do you like about the 997? Why does it have to be a 997?
Instead of fixating solely on the price, it might be worth thinking about why it has to be a 997. Maybe a 987.2 Cayman would make you more happy? Or an early 996? Or a BMW 1M? Or BMW M2?
Yeh I think you guys speaking sense. I was just being impatient to get into a Porsche, but I genuinely have no issue with 997.2 prices. Just gotta wait a probably 6 months or so.As RiccardoG has stated correctly, you assume from the very beginning that a non rebuilt 996/997 will need an engine revision. Maybe, maybe not.
The failure rate is not 100%. It might be high, but without wanting to start an argument about exact numbers that probably no one will be able to provide, it is a fact that not every M96/7 needs a rebuild @100k miles.
And your milkmaid bill that the value of every 997 need to factor in the cost of a rebuilt and thus every 997.1 that hasn't had one prior is £10k to high is simply wrong. Common sense as well as the market values clearly show this.
Expecting a 997.1 to be cheaper than they already are is wishful thinking. Compare the blue Portiacraft 997.2 C2 and the CC 997.1 C2: They have comparable mileage and are essentially the same car. The blue one is almost double the price!
While I'm 100% with you regarding non oem installs, those parrot display usually are just stock on and the cable is routed between the air vent and the dash. And if you really cared, why didn't you ask the seller?
It honestly sounds as if the 997.1 is not the car that makes you happy.
At this point, I have to refrain from my earlier advice of just buying a 997 if this is what you want. I think you would honestly worry too much to enjoy the car.
I haven't read every post of yours, but have you driven a 997? What do you like about the 997? Why does it have to be a 997?
Instead of fixating solely on the price, it might be worth thinking about why it has to be a 997. Maybe a 987.2 Cayman would make you more happy? Or an early 996? Or a BMW 1M? Or BMW M2?
Yeh I’m terms of driving a 997... no not yet. But I’m sure I won’t be disappointed… literally everyone seems to love em, so I doubt I’d enjoy it.
996, defo no no for me - just no don’t like the looks or interior.
Cayman - I’d be open to 981 S but would rather get 997.2 (similar price)
BMW 1M - I knows it I’ll get the pitchforks thrown at me… but prefer the looks of the M2 which I own at mo.
Only reason I’m wanting to change from the M2 is get into something a bit more raw, and has a more traditional coupe shape. Was looking at gen 1 R8 but just lacks all daily drivability and convenience - prices are dropping on them at mo too.
I don’t think there’s another car out there that is smallish / traditional coupe form / with 4 seats / and performance to boot. Plus I think the HP is perfect for uk roads, any more and you don’t get to ring the engine out as often on road.
magic Monkey Dust said:
As a serial 911 owner i except that all of them are flawed and just make sure i have more enjoyment than heart break.
We swapped back from a 991 to a 997.1 because we preferred the smaller and more fun chassis. We used ours without regard to mileage and replaced anything that needed doing without complaining as we bought the car cheap back in 2016. Bear in mind back then a BMW x5 was about 70 grand before it depreciates.
The dreaded bore score came along at 94k miles and we bit the bullet and had a rebuild. Rest of the car is in excellent shape. At 105,000 miles my wife still uses it daily and enjoys it. We get admiring comments whenever its parked up, i can't think of anything that would be enjoyable for the outlay.
We previously had a number of 911 dailies , 2.0S, 2.2S, 2.4S, several SC's , 964 Carrera 4, 964 RS, 991 and hands done the best allrounder back road bruiser that can cruise to Paris for the weekend in comfort and mix it with bigger boys is the 997.
We tried a few 997.2's but the engine noise was a bit drone like and we didnt see the real world gain for the extra 20 grand. we dont give a stuff about resale value because there's no need to sell it unless they change the goalposts on emissions beyond reason.
Yeh I hear u about mileage… essentially this would be my forever car - reason why I’m being so nit picky. I thought the M2 would be something I keep forever, and as much as I love it, I do want something that’s a bit more of a traditional coupe as apposed to a two door saloon / coupe.We swapped back from a 991 to a 997.1 because we preferred the smaller and more fun chassis. We used ours without regard to mileage and replaced anything that needed doing without complaining as we bought the car cheap back in 2016. Bear in mind back then a BMW x5 was about 70 grand before it depreciates.
The dreaded bore score came along at 94k miles and we bit the bullet and had a rebuild. Rest of the car is in excellent shape. At 105,000 miles my wife still uses it daily and enjoys it. We get admiring comments whenever its parked up, i can't think of anything that would be enjoyable for the outlay.
We previously had a number of 911 dailies , 2.0S, 2.2S, 2.4S, several SC's , 964 Carrera 4, 964 RS, 991 and hands done the best allrounder back road bruiser that can cruise to Paris for the weekend in comfort and mix it with bigger boys is the 997.
We tried a few 997.2's but the engine noise was a bit drone like and we didnt see the real world gain for the extra 20 grand. we dont give a stuff about resale value because there's no need to sell it unless they change the goalposts on emissions beyond reason.
And yeh - essentially I’ll be doing Europe / Scotland trips in it… so want something that relatively worry free.
Anyway. I think I’m set on 997.2… so let’s see what comes up
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/14160626
Ok good value is still out there. That went quick!
£31k - for 35k miler - with a full Harlech rebuild at 25k miles.
Maybe it’s time to liquidate
Ok good value is still out there. That went quick!
£31k - for 35k miler - with a full Harlech rebuild at 25k miles.
Maybe it’s time to liquidate
Nice manual Gen 2 997 on Fuchs. I reckon its a gem.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211221...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211221...
Price also should reflect spec sheet.
When we bought our 997.1 we wanted Sports seats full electric, sport chrono, pasm , carrera classic alloys, sports exhaust and Bose. We had to compromise on lack of sun roof. Also for some reason the original owner hadn't specced cruise control, this can be retro fitted and we intend to do this when we fit the upgraded pccm+ when it comes out in future.
I hear you can also fit paddles and a 997.2 steering wheel so may do this as long as the multi function buttons are comparable.
To be fair i've really warmed to lobster claw wheels now. They didn't float my boat back in 2004 at launch. I loaned my Champagne yellow 1967 2.0S to Porsche for their launch party via the PCGB and remember the unveiling event being really impressed by the car but thinking it looked a little soft and large next to a 993. The 992 makes it look like a kids pedal car.
I personally prefer the 997.1, the original of any design is the one that lasts the distance. Look at how early 996 cable throttle cars are getting collectable. 964's C4's on those multi spoke launch wheels and impact bumper 2.7's.
When we bought our 997.1 we wanted Sports seats full electric, sport chrono, pasm , carrera classic alloys, sports exhaust and Bose. We had to compromise on lack of sun roof. Also for some reason the original owner hadn't specced cruise control, this can be retro fitted and we intend to do this when we fit the upgraded pccm+ when it comes out in future.
I hear you can also fit paddles and a 997.2 steering wheel so may do this as long as the multi function buttons are comparable.
To be fair i've really warmed to lobster claw wheels now. They didn't float my boat back in 2004 at launch. I loaned my Champagne yellow 1967 2.0S to Porsche for their launch party via the PCGB and remember the unveiling event being really impressed by the car but thinking it looked a little soft and large next to a 993. The 992 makes it look like a kids pedal car.
I personally prefer the 997.1, the original of any design is the one that lasts the distance. Look at how early 996 cable throttle cars are getting collectable. 964's C4's on those multi spoke launch wheels and impact bumper 2.7's.
shuebc said:
Yeh I’m kinda thinking that now. I think I’ll just wait to save a bit more and get a minter of a 997.2
Agreed, you don't want the worries to ruin your ownership experience. There is a lot to be said for peace of mind when running a pride and joy type car.Curiously, have been thinking about getting into an M2 myself. They look great! Silly question, do you think it would be a bad choice if used largely in the city (London)? It all started by originally looking at the 218i... then man maths took hold!
julian987R said:
Nice manual Gen 2 997 on Fuchs. I reckon its a gem.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211221...
STUNNING!https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211221...
but way out of my budget, also Black colour would be a nightmare to look after...
magic Monkey Dust said:
Price also should reflect spec sheet.
When we bought our 997.1 we wanted Sports seats full electric, sport chrono, pasm , carrera classic alloys, sports exhaust and Bose. We had to compromise on lack of sun roof. Also for some reason the original owner hadn't specced cruise control, this can be retro fitted and we intend to do this when we fit the upgraded pccm+ when it comes out in future.
I hear you can also fit paddles and a 997.2 steering wheel so may do this as long as the multi function buttons are comparable.
To be fair i've really warmed to lobster claw wheels now. They didn't float my boat back in 2004 at launch. I loaned my Champagne yellow 1967 2.0S to Porsche for their launch party via the PCGB and remember the unveiling event being really impressed by the car but thinking it looked a little soft and large next to a 993. The 992 makes it look like a kids pedal car.
I personally prefer the 997.1, the original of any design is the one that lasts the distance. Look at how early 996 cable throttle cars are getting collectable. 964's C4's on those multi spoke launch wheels and impact bumper 2.7's.
Yeh I kinda know spec I want.When we bought our 997.1 we wanted Sports seats full electric, sport chrono, pasm , carrera classic alloys, sports exhaust and Bose. We had to compromise on lack of sun roof. Also for some reason the original owner hadn't specced cruise control, this can be retro fitted and we intend to do this when we fit the upgraded pccm+ when it comes out in future.
I hear you can also fit paddles and a 997.2 steering wheel so may do this as long as the multi function buttons are comparable.
To be fair i've really warmed to lobster claw wheels now. They didn't float my boat back in 2004 at launch. I loaned my Champagne yellow 1967 2.0S to Porsche for their launch party via the PCGB and remember the unveiling event being really impressed by the car but thinking it looked a little soft and large next to a 993. The 992 makes it look like a kids pedal car.
I personally prefer the 997.1, the original of any design is the one that lasts the distance. Look at how early 996 cable throttle cars are getting collectable. 964's C4's on those multi spoke launch wheels and impact bumper 2.7's.
Manual
No mods (only exceptions I'd be open to - Black cased headlights (OEM style) Fuchs wheels / and a Ducktail from a reputable Porsche aftermarket place)
Sports Chrono
Black Interior
Lobster Claws
Silver / Grey or White or any grey variation
PASM (Not sure how important this is - is it another thing to go wrong in future?)
Carrera 4 or 4S (for the wide hips) - but to be honest I think from drive perspective I'd prefer a C2 or C2S.
I didn't realise the sound is pretty different between gen 1 and gen 2. Sound is super important to me (we have same debate between M2 OG and M2 Comp - people preferring M2 OG sound!)
C2S comes with PASM as standard.
Bose is worth having
I’m not sure I’d be too fussed with sports chrono though, I’ve yet to meet anyone who actually uses it!
The sound really is different between the gen 1 and the DFI.
These cars are all about the experience and so for me 2wd gen 1 3.8. manual is pretty much the sweet spot.
Bose is worth having
I’m not sure I’d be too fussed with sports chrono though, I’ve yet to meet anyone who actually uses it!
The sound really is different between the gen 1 and the DFI.
These cars are all about the experience and so for me 2wd gen 1 3.8. manual is pretty much the sweet spot.
It may have been said already but a 987.1 Boxster S is getting towards a third of the price of a decent 997.1.
From the seats forward the two cars are pretty much the same. And the plus is the Boxster is a better handling car!
Boxsters are an equal amount of fun etc. and shouldn’t be discounted. If your hearts is set on a 997.1 then fine, but as Box S owner myself I would definitely consider one.
From the seats forward the two cars are pretty much the same. And the plus is the Boxster is a better handling car!
Boxsters are an equal amount of fun etc. and shouldn’t be discounted. If your hearts is set on a 997.1 then fine, but as Box S owner myself I would definitely consider one.
RiccardoG said:
Agreed, you don't want the worries to ruin your ownership experience. There is a lot to be said for peace of mind when running a pride and joy type car.
Curiously, have been thinking about getting into an M2 myself. They look great! Silly question, do you think it would be a bad choice if used largely in the city (London)? It all started by originally looking at the 218i... then man maths took hold!
Possibly bad choice for London but depends if you'd taking it out on drives on weekends out of London.Curiously, have been thinking about getting into an M2 myself. They look great! Silly question, do you think it would be a bad choice if used largely in the city (London)? It all started by originally looking at the 218i... then man maths took hold!
M2 is actually very easy to live with (to be honest possibly a bit easy - why I'm looking for something a bit more old school and raw). It's actually really nice to pootle around with window down (engine sound at low revs is lovely). Window up - it's a bit too insulated sound wise. All depends what you want from car - absolutely love how it looks, question is would you be happy driving the M2 slowly in town - if I'm honest it doesn't feel special enough sitting inside - but I'd say thats more down to it not being a traditional two seater coupe.
The main thing with the M2 is that at high revs it lacks that feel of the engine going all out - that drama that happens with old school cars. I use to have Z4 Coupe and the engine is to scream at high revs and in some ways felt more exciting when getting on it. And sitting inside one - it felt more special - hunkered down and low - car felt like wrapped around you.
If you don't nee practicality (or 4 seats) - I was thinking of getting a Z4M coupe before the M2 - might be a nice alternative over M2. Prices are creeping up slowly on them - but you do get 8000 RPM S54 engine - and its bloody rare sight on the road too... I think 1000 odd in UK only.
Or maybe an Aston Martin Vantage V8 - but heard running costs can be a nightmare.
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