Are 997 gen 1 / gen 2s over priced?

[shuebc]

Yeh I hear you, I completely with on this. Defo would go for the Hartech out of those two and yeh I’d say fair value considering the cost of a rebuild.

Yeh normally I’m not too fussed with cars with known issues, but the thing is if and when this issue occurs - it’s a big fat bill, which will I’d only want to get into knowing I have war chest fund behind me.

Anyway pretty much set on gen 2.

I wish Porsche themselves would decide to offer an upgrade / enhancement direct from themselves. I know Hartech have the reputation and they are great but as with anything of this nature it’s always nice to keep things OEM.

RemarkLima said:

Following this as it's an interesting mix...

Personally, purchased a 997.1 with a mind that if it borks, then get it fixed, if not, run it and enjoy it. It did end up needing the front crossover pipes doing (ouch) but so far everything else is OK. I've done of DIY bits on it (it's 17 years old!) and change the PCM.

However, soon after I got mine, there was a 997.1 with a Hartech rebuild for a few k more, which was a bit of a bummer. So they do come up, with a rebuild, for similar money to the non-rebuilt cars, or at least a small premium.

This for example, looks like good value...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211201...

That said, and I'm not sure why, but something on that ad isn't passing the sniff test? As this https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211231... is more money, not with a rebuild and just looks like a better car!

To the point, BMW diesel swirl flaps, BMW nikasil linings, VANOS failues, most cars DPF's, most cars Dual Mass flywheels, K-Series head gaskets, Mazda rotary cracked tips, and no doubt every other internet message would have you believe these (and many more) are absolutes, and 100% certain to happen to every car. Clearly, this isn't always true.

Why worry about something that may not happen? And bore-scoring isn't a catastrophic failure, so you have time to plan should it happen, and it'll not leave you stranded at the side of the road. For me it was a 997.2 for at least £10k - 15k more, or find a good 997.1 with a borescope done and have the spare cash as a war chest? it's only not our only car, and I do not do that many miles.

[shuebc]

ATM said:

With every generation these cars get more and more sanitised. So it is possible that the Gen 1 is a more raw car than the Gen 2 but not sure you would actually notice. And do you want raw or do you want newer? Even if the Gen 1 engine is only half new it is still all fully rebuilt with new gaskets etc. Maybe that means it will last longer - who knows.

Yeh it’s not just the engine only tbh. The interior colour and layout I prefer on gen 2. Also prefer the rear lights and bumper on gen 2. And of course the reliability of gen 2 (what I’m aware of anyway).

The newer thing - doesn’t bother me so much, in fact I kind like the idea of having the older car… the main reason I was thinking of going for gen 1 is I could make it my own with minimal tasteful mods and actually make it a very very long term project. I can actually see the gen 1s eventually becoming the car companies like Singer take on a restomod. Which is kinda what I was thinking of doing. Kinda like the CSR - https://youtu.be/ANmQyLI70-g

However with a gen 2 - I wouldn’t want to change anything… and keep it exactly OEM

[shuebc]

Ok so hears another question - gonna open a can of worms I feel…

PASM or no PASM?

And was PASM an option on the non S models… I think a few hear mentioned PASM standard on all S models?

[shuebc]

Thanks for everyone’s comments on this by the way… defo been enlightened. Time for me to go make some decisions but pretty much set on gen 2.

But I think what I will do is defo try out a gen 1 with Hartech rebuild… noise is probably as important as everything else. And everyone sounds like they agree the gen 1 is the better sounding engine.

I’m a good few months away if I get gen 2 - so will update whoever is interested down the line

[ATM]

shuebc said:

Kinda like the CSR - https://youtu.be/ANmQyLI70-g

However with a gen 2 - I wouldn’t want to change anything… and keep it exactly OEM

My car looked good there 20 to 25 seconds in. Moving on I'll leave this here...and I've just noticed the ad now says reserved so I guess it is sold.

997 CSR
Gen 2
2009
57,000 miles

Big CSR package built in 2018
CSR bodykit – Front bumper including racemesh and signature CSR carbon fibre ducktail spoiler
CSR drivetrain pack – Lightweight clutch and flywheel
CSR suspension kit including front axle lift
CSR x-pipe exhaust

!!!STICKERS!!!!

£59,995.00

https://9werks.co.uk/classifieds/4e1d3a48-ed42-432...

[Chris-55tad]

Long time lurker, occasional posted here.

I’ve been enjoying the recent chat on 997s, both here and the ‘Appreciation’ thread.

I went through a similar decision process on 997.1 vs 997.2 six years ago and ultimately chose a manual 997.2. I don’t want to add to the noise about .1 failure rates (there’s plenty of that) but I concluded the .2 would probably be a safe place for the extra capital without the fear of failure. Mine is still worth more or less what I paid, not that I plan to sell.

Regarding exhaust noise, I was personally happy with the standard sound but I had a failure of one of the side mufflers a couple of years ago and replaced both sides with the Dansk OE style system from Design911. This has definitely increased volume and it sounds nice without being loud.

The car passed it’s mot yesterday with no advisories and I just cannot think of another car which I would enjoy as much for the money. Every drive, even at very steady speeds is a pleasure.

Whichever you chose OP, I’m sure you’ll love it. These cars are addictive and great value imho.

Gratuitous pic whilst I’m here…

[Slippydiff]

ATM said:

shuebc said:

Kinda like the CSR - https://youtu.be/ANmQyLI70-g

However with a gen 2 - I wouldn’t want to change anything… and keep it exactly OEM

My car looked good there 20 to 25 seconds in. Moving on I'll leave this here...and I've just noticed the ad now says reserved so I guess it is sold.

997 CSR
Gen 2
2009
57,000 miles

Big CSR package built in 2018
CSR bodykit – Front bumper including racemesh and signature CSR carbon fibre ducktail spoiler
CSR drivetrain pack – Lightweight clutch and flywheel
CSR suspension kit including front axle lift
CSR x-pipe exhaust

£59,995.00

https://9werks.co.uk/classifieds/4e1d3a48-ed42-432...

I drove this car early in September, having driven a stock 3.6 Gen 2 C2 coupe a couple of days previously and a stock 3.8S the day before. The CSR came as a revelation, the lowered stance and better controlled damping made the Gen 2 chassis into an altogether sharper more focused platform that was fun to drive but with a huge caveat, it rode as well, if not better than the standard car.

A large part of this was the lack of any other modifications to the suspension, no uprated anti roll bars, bushes, coffin arms, toe links etc etc, and more importantly no spherical top mounts. The car is an interesting one in that it comes with a front lift kit and non-adjustable KW V1’s. The end result was every bit as refined as the stock 3.8S C2, but far nicer to drive quickly over the give and take, oft poorly surfaced roads around RPMT’s HQ.

The car was running an OE PSE exhaust (in which the valves had been fixed open in the noisy position) along with the centre box removed and replaced with a crossover pipe. My days of noisy exhausts are behind me, I find them both tedious inside the car and socially unacceptable outside, this car’s exhaust was muted and in no way intrusive. I’ve no idea what it sounded like outside, but the all too common complaint that the Gen 2 cars sound tame compared with the Gen 1 car, had credence. I’d want an exhaust that was as muted as this car was, but with the ability to have a “hooligan” mode, for the times you find yourself out in the sticks and wanting the car to sound like a 70’s aircooled MFi car...

The lightweight flywheel was another game changer. Whilst both the 3.6 and 3.8 engines provide decent acceleration, the lack of mass in the single piece lightened flywheel really did wake the 3.8 engine up, and made it far more willing to rev. It was accompanied by some very minor gearbox chatter, but again it wasn’t in any way intrusive (not like a 964/993 RS or a 996GT3 Clubsport) rather the muted noises emanating from the gear cluster added a depth of character to what is an otherwise characterless, though ultimately efficient drivetrain.

Personally I like the ducktail, though it’s not a cheap addition, it adds something to the aesthetic that I found pleasing. The wheels won’t be to everyone’s taste, I like them, though I think I’d have them in Weiss gold or silver rather than graphite grey.
Their offsets are certainly more aggressive than the stock wheels, and they fill the arches far more convincingly, and without resorting to spacers, of which I’m not a fan.

The front splitter arrangement and stripes weren’t my thing, and would be only items I’d change or remove. I’d be tempted to go for a Gen 2 aerokit front bumper (NOT a GT3 item) along with the Sport Classic front splitter and the previously mentioned change in hue to the wheels.

The standard seats were incredibly supportive and comfortable, though if you wanted to make the car feel more focused still, I’d remove them and fit a set of Pole Positions or similar.

For the limited modifications made, the results were hugely impressive. I’d feared the results of RPMT’s handiwork would be too low, too stiff and too unyielding, but I needn’t have worried, this was (for me) the perfect blend of everyday usability whilst being able to cope with a cross country dash far more enjoyably than in either of the standard cars I’d driven prior to driving the CSR.

The lightweight flywheel livened up the throttle response without any downsides, though I did have to finesse my gearshifts such was the lightness of the gearshift action, the length/weight of gear lever/knob (not the one shown in the pictures in the advert) and the much reduced rotating mass of the flywheel.
Personally I’d revert back to one of the more expensive factory options for the gearlever/knob.

At £60K (and it had just been reduced in price a couple of days before I drove the car in early September, I thought the car slightly overpriced. RPMT have subsequently provided me with the costs to replicate the black car, though with the caveat it would supply and fit KW V3’s without a front lift kit. Their prices do fall into the “reassuringly expensive” bracket, but they are a one stop shop and they’ve clearly ironed out all the bugs in the process of carrying out the CSR conversions.

They were being either deliberately coy as to whether the spring rates and damper valving were tailored to their specific requirements, or there was a question mark as to whether the KW V1’s fitted to the car were a development item due to the inclusion of the front lift kit. Either way, the dampers and springs along with the lightweight flywheel were the standout components for me.

I’ve no doubt a harder, even more focused edge could have been engineered into the car, but as it stood, it provided an excellent blend of usability with just the right amount of increased focus.
I hope the new owner enjoys it as much as I did

[anonymous-user]

It’s a curious thing Porsche ownership.

I’d been driving nice cars for more than 30 years and never really got the Porsche thing. I subscribed I’m ashamed to say to the ‘warmed up beetle’ line and preferred ‘proper’ mid engined cars.

Then I got one and now my mates get fed up with me banging on about how awesome they are! It’s like a drug, one hit of a 911, any 911 frankly, and they’ve got you!

[Chris-55tad]

Tobermory said:

It’s a curious thing Porsche ownership.

I’d been driving nice cars for more than 30 years and never really got the Porsche thing. I subscribed I’m ashamed to say to the ‘warmed up beetle’ line and preferred ‘proper’ mid engined cars.

Then I got one and now my mates get fed up with me banging on about how awesome they are! It’s like a drug, one hit of a 911, any 911 frankly, and they’ve got you!

Indeed. I used to browse all kinds of exotic cars that I couldn’t afford. Since I bought my 997.2, I just browse exotic Porsches I can’t afford.

Edited by Chris-55tad on Saturday 26th November 10:25

[Da Original Whyayedee]

Great write up Slippy, essentially a DIY CSR is what I am aiming for, already got their ducktail in the basket just depending on whether I end up with a .1 or a .2. I think you are right in your assessment, they are expensive for what you can create yourself and for some people they just want to buy it, I want to be a little more involved with the process.

Interesting points about the KW setup, RPM don't hold all the secrets there are plenty of places that you can give you desired outcome too and get the same results, I definitely want mine damped for the road, as that's where it will spend 85% of its time.

Going to see both cars I posted on Tuesday, 997.1 first followed by the .2 and I'll make a decision and buy one of them then.

Edited by Da Original Whyayedee on Saturday 26th November 12:08

[IREvans]

shuebc said:

Ok so hears another question - gonna open a can of worms I feel…

PASM or no PASM?

And was PASM an option on the non S models… I think a few hear mentioned PASM standard on all S models?

Correct. 3.8 Carrera S models have PASM as standard, and passive non adjustable damping is standard on the 3.6 Carrera.

I’m currently using a 997.1 C4 coupe on standard non PASM suspension, and I love the compliance. (It’s also on 19” wheels)

I find a PASM equipped car on the sport setting a little too firm, so in reality, I consider a PASM car to only have a single setting, which makes the option redundant….

[S600BSB]

Have it on my C4S but never use it.

[shuebc]

Yeh UK doesn’t have the best of roads… so PASM isn’t too important and option for me, don’t really intend to track car, just crossing continents fast.

That CSR looks stunning. Honestly I think if I had 60k lying around, I’d probably go for that over a new Emira / M2 or other sports coupe that’s new.

[shuebc]

Da Original Whyayedee said:

So for me at the moment its between

This: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211201...

It's had a Hartech Rebuild to 4,5 and 6, a full rebuild will obviously be more desirable, but speaking to Hartech rebuilding that bank is likely to be sufficient to see you good. I am pretty sure its Midnight blue, nice colour, and has had some good work done it aside from the Rebuild too.

And then this Gen2, again looks lovely, people have said its cheap for a Gen2 but with its mileage I think it's been priced accordingly, well its been listed since August, so no one has snapped it up in a few months. So maybe there is a little bit to come off it too.

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/13781783

So its £9k difference, which is a big dent in the budget for the other things I'd like to do (Coilovers, wheels, exhaust etc) I am going around in circles a bit, time is running out too for me to get one for my 40th which doesn't have to happen, but it would be a pretty sweet birthday if it can all be tied up.

I hear ya man… I guess with any used sports car you need a 2-3k spare anyway after purchase.

The 997.1 is a big saving considering it has the Hartech rebuild. I need to speak with Hartech again… wanted to find out what’s the highest mileage someone’s done since a Hartech rebuild, even if these are bombproof post rebuild. Leave you plenty of cash to tweak.

But the 997.2 - is a 997.2. First world problems

[shuebc]

If your not bothered by mileage - there’s a 30k gen 2 in silver…

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125616419056

I just bring myself to buy a 100k mile car for 30k

[RemarkLima]

S600BSB said:

Have it on my C4S but never use it.

PASM is always on, just if it maps hard or soft.

On a 997.1 probably not worth it, unless you fit a DSC PASM controller (with 3 Axis accelerometer). On the 997.2 it's better.

But it does depend on the usage really and wouldn't make it a show stopper either way.

[anonymous-user]

RemarkLima said:

S600BSB said:

Have it on my C4S but never use it.

PASM is always on, just if it maps hard or soft.

On a 997.1 probably not worth it, unless you fit a DSC PASM controller (with 3 Axis accelerometer). On the 997.2 it's better.

But it does depend on the usage really and wouldn't make it a show stopper either way.

You can turn PASM off, there's a button for it. I don't think any of it makes a huge difference in normal driving though, the car just gets a bit more jiggly in sport mode.

[RemarkLima]

Tobermory said:

RemarkLima said:

S600BSB said:

Have it on my C4S but never use it.

PASM is always on, just if it maps hard or soft.

On a 997.1 probably not worth it, unless you fit a DSC PASM controller (with 3 Axis accelerometer). On the 997.2 it's better.

But it does depend on the usage really and wouldn't make it a show stopper either way.

You can turn PASM off, there's a button for it. I don't think any of it makes a huge difference in normal driving though, the car just gets a bit more jiggly in sport mode.

No, seriously, it's always working, the button is if you want it stiff (sports) or not.

So, with it off, the dampers are still adjusting all the time, it's just using a less aggressive map and towards the softer end of the adjustment.

With it on, it's just doing the firmer map. It's never 100% off!

[anonymous-user]

RemarkLima said:

Tobermory said:

RemarkLima said:

S600BSB said:

Have it on my C4S but never use it.

PASM is always on, just if it maps hard or soft.

On a 997.1 probably not worth it, unless you fit a DSC PASM controller (with 3 Axis accelerometer). On the 997.2 it's better.

But it does depend on the usage really and wouldn't make it a show stopper either way.

You can turn PASM off, there's a button for it. I don't think any of it makes a huge difference in normal driving though, the car just gets a bit more jiggly in sport mode.

No, seriously, it's always working, the button is if you want it stiff (sports) or not.

So, with it off, the dampers are still adjusting all the time, it's just using a less aggressive map and towards the softer end of the adjustment.

With it on, it's just doing the firmer map. It's never 100% off!

On mine there's a sports button (with an icon like a shock absorber) and a separate button marked 'PSM off', which when you press it the message 'PSM off' comes upon the multifunction display. I'm not sure if this comes as standard on all 997.1 C2S's though

[RemarkLima]

Tobermory said:

On mine there's a sports button (with an icon like a shock absorber) and a separate button marked 'PSM off', which when you press it the message 'PSM off' comes upon the multifunction display. I'm not sure if this comes as standard on all 997.1 C2S's though

Gotta love porsche acronyms! PSM is Porsche Stability Management, so traction control.

The damper symbol is PASM, Porsche Active Suspension Management.

All cars (997) have PSM, but only PASM equipped cars have the damper button.

The sport button should, reduce the amount of intervention from the PSM (stability management), change the throttle map and stiffen the PASM if equipped. The damper button just changes the PASM on it's own.

But given we have PASM, PSM, PCM, and no doubt a load more, they all sound too much the same!