Are 997 gen 1 / gen 2s over priced?
Discussion
Yeh nice, but overpriced a bit in my opinion - on collecting cars at 90k miler went for 31.5k a couple of months back on a gen 2.
Below has 40k less miles too
.https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210150747077
Below has 40k less miles too
.https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210150747077
ATM said:
Yeh true - white isn’t a C4 or an S.
Yeh fair point - didn’t read the new engine bit.
A one odd thing - that’s 3 gen 2s I’ve come across with complete engine replacements… was under the impression they were bullet proof the 997.2s.
Rarely hear about engine replacements on other sports cars.
Yeh fair point - didn’t read the new engine bit.
A one odd thing - that’s 3 gen 2s I’ve come across with complete engine replacements… was under the impression they were bullet proof the 997.2s.
Rarely hear about engine replacements on other sports cars.
I’d say engine 10k (or 11k from Hartech) with a two year guarantee.
Brakes I’d forego and keep OEM (since it’s a consumable I won’t count that)
Suspension refresh - again depends on mileage and how it rides, being a Porsche I’m guessing that prob won’t need a refresh until 150k miles plus? Don’t know.
In my head anyway 15k give or take another 2k is plenty to get something that is mechanically perfect, with some tasteful visual mods (more just headlights/ducktail/steering wheel re trim/ modern stereo system (CarPlay) - essentially 5-7k on everything else excluding engine.
But yeh I hear you… I pretty wary of going for it. I’m in an immaculate low mileage M2 1 owner… so would be a big change in every front… especially from a reliability perspective.
Brakes I’d forego and keep OEM (since it’s a consumable I won’t count that)
Suspension refresh - again depends on mileage and how it rides, being a Porsche I’m guessing that prob won’t need a refresh until 150k miles plus? Don’t know.
In my head anyway 15k give or take another 2k is plenty to get something that is mechanically perfect, with some tasteful visual mods (more just headlights/ducktail/steering wheel re trim/ modern stereo system (CarPlay) - essentially 5-7k on everything else excluding engine.
But yeh I hear you… I pretty wary of going for it. I’m in an immaculate low mileage M2 1 owner… so would be a big change in every front… especially from a reliability perspective.
ATM said:
A full on refresh can cost muchos dineros
Engine - 15k
Gearbox - yes these are made of chocolate - 4k
Clutch and Flywheel - 1.5k
Suspension refresh - 5k
Coolant cross over pipe - 1.5k
All other pipes and tubes - 2.5k
Carbon Ceramic brakes - 5k to 15k - left till last as I have no idea really just guessing
So you could easily spend twice the cost of the basic car getting this fettled and that's before you start on wheels, paint and interior
Engine - 15k
Gearbox - yes these are made of chocolate - 4k
Clutch and Flywheel - 1.5k
Suspension refresh - 5k
Coolant cross over pipe - 1.5k
All other pipes and tubes - 2.5k
Carbon Ceramic brakes - 5k to 15k - left till last as I have no idea really just guessing
So you could easily spend twice the cost of the basic car getting this fettled and that's before you start on wheels, paint and interior
Filibuster said:
OP, what are your 2p on this sale price? Did you bid on it or even buy it?
No didn’t bid. For me it is a bit high… but people are paying so who am I to judge.It all comes down to engine bore scoring risk… honestly if bore scoring wasn’t a thing - 22k would be bargain for what the 997 is.
22k can easily become 32k plus with an engine rebuild
Looked nice a nice specimen tho… but wouldn’t have bided because of the parrot thing that’s fitted… I’m assuming there’s a hole in the original dash… non OEM parts aren’t for me.
There’s a gen 2 from portiacraft that looks like a very fairly priced car… just too much of stretch for me right now
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211161...
braddo said:
You need to take note of the real-world costs that are being mentioned on this thread if you want something mechanically perfect plus with styling mods. Your estimate is way undercooked. A cheap car plus what you want to budget for is £40k+,
Yeh I think it was more just the major thing getting changed (engine) spending with minimal tasteful mods, (2-3k). Any additional mods can happen slowly. It was just to ensure the car when I drive it is 100% performance from an engine perspective.Anyway to be honest I think I need to rethink it. I’m just going wait and get into 997.2 rather than get into 997.1 when I know they’ll always be that niggle in back of my mind.
RiccardoG said:
OP, you've gone down the rabbit hole of assuming you WILL need an engine rebuild. This is a bad place to be. I know, I was there in 2001 with my 964. I assumed it would need one, sold it in the end (also for other reasons, but the thought niggled me every time I was in it). And, unless its already broken, no vendor will agree with you, so you WILL be disappointed when searching.
Genuinely suggest you don't get a 997. If you're used to a new-ish BMW a 15yr old 911 will be several times more expensive to run (if not to own, as depreciation is very low).
Yeh I’m kinda thinking that now. I think I’ll just wait to save a bit more and get a minter of a 997.2Genuinely suggest you don't get a 997. If you're used to a new-ish BMW a 15yr old 911 will be several times more expensive to run (if not to own, as depreciation is very low).
Filibuster said:
OP, I have told you before, that you are overthinking this.
As RiccardoG has stated correctly, you assume from the very beginning that a non rebuilt 996/997 will need an engine revision. Maybe, maybe not.
The failure rate is not 100%. It might be high, but without wanting to start an argument about exact numbers that probably no one will be able to provide, it is a fact that not every M96/7 needs a rebuild @100k miles.
And your milkmaid bill that the value of every 997 need to factor in the cost of a rebuilt and thus every 997.1 that hasn't had one prior is £10k to high is simply wrong. Common sense as well as the market values clearly show this.
Expecting a 997.1 to be cheaper than they already are is wishful thinking. Compare the blue Portiacraft 997.2 C2 and the CC 997.1 C2: They have comparable mileage and are essentially the same car. The blue one is almost double the price!
While I'm 100% with you regarding non oem installs, those parrot display usually are just stock on and the cable is routed between the air vent and the dash. And if you really cared, why didn't you ask the seller?
It honestly sounds as if the 997.1 is not the car that makes you happy.
At this point, I have to refrain from my earlier advice of just buying a 997 if this is what you want. I think you would honestly worry too much to enjoy the car.
I haven't read every post of yours, but have you driven a 997? What do you like about the 997? Why does it have to be a 997?
Instead of fixating solely on the price, it might be worth thinking about why it has to be a 997. Maybe a 987.2 Cayman would make you more happy? Or an early 996? Or a BMW 1M? Or BMW M2?
Yeh I think you guys speaking sense. I was just being impatient to get into a Porsche, but I genuinely have no issue with 997.2 prices. Just gotta wait a probably 6 months or so.As RiccardoG has stated correctly, you assume from the very beginning that a non rebuilt 996/997 will need an engine revision. Maybe, maybe not.
The failure rate is not 100%. It might be high, but without wanting to start an argument about exact numbers that probably no one will be able to provide, it is a fact that not every M96/7 needs a rebuild @100k miles.
And your milkmaid bill that the value of every 997 need to factor in the cost of a rebuilt and thus every 997.1 that hasn't had one prior is £10k to high is simply wrong. Common sense as well as the market values clearly show this.
Expecting a 997.1 to be cheaper than they already are is wishful thinking. Compare the blue Portiacraft 997.2 C2 and the CC 997.1 C2: They have comparable mileage and are essentially the same car. The blue one is almost double the price!
While I'm 100% with you regarding non oem installs, those parrot display usually are just stock on and the cable is routed between the air vent and the dash. And if you really cared, why didn't you ask the seller?
It honestly sounds as if the 997.1 is not the car that makes you happy.
At this point, I have to refrain from my earlier advice of just buying a 997 if this is what you want. I think you would honestly worry too much to enjoy the car.
I haven't read every post of yours, but have you driven a 997? What do you like about the 997? Why does it have to be a 997?
Instead of fixating solely on the price, it might be worth thinking about why it has to be a 997. Maybe a 987.2 Cayman would make you more happy? Or an early 996? Or a BMW 1M? Or BMW M2?
Yeh I’m terms of driving a 997... no not yet. But I’m sure I won’t be disappointed… literally everyone seems to love em, so I doubt I’d enjoy it.
996, defo no no for me - just no don’t like the looks or interior.
Cayman - I’d be open to 981 S but would rather get 997.2 (similar price)
BMW 1M - I knows it I’ll get the pitchforks thrown at me… but prefer the looks of the M2 which I own at mo.
Only reason I’m wanting to change from the M2 is get into something a bit more raw, and has a more traditional coupe shape. Was looking at gen 1 R8 but just lacks all daily drivability and convenience - prices are dropping on them at mo too.
I don’t think there’s another car out there that is smallish / traditional coupe form / with 4 seats / and performance to boot. Plus I think the HP is perfect for uk roads, any more and you don’t get to ring the engine out as often on road.
magic Monkey Dust said:
As a serial 911 owner i except that all of them are flawed and just make sure i have more enjoyment than heart break.
We swapped back from a 991 to a 997.1 because we preferred the smaller and more fun chassis. We used ours without regard to mileage and replaced anything that needed doing without complaining as we bought the car cheap back in 2016. Bear in mind back then a BMW x5 was about 70 grand before it depreciates.
The dreaded bore score came along at 94k miles and we bit the bullet and had a rebuild. Rest of the car is in excellent shape. At 105,000 miles my wife still uses it daily and enjoys it. We get admiring comments whenever its parked up, i can't think of anything that would be enjoyable for the outlay.
We previously had a number of 911 dailies , 2.0S, 2.2S, 2.4S, several SC's , 964 Carrera 4, 964 RS, 991 and hands done the best allrounder back road bruiser that can cruise to Paris for the weekend in comfort and mix it with bigger boys is the 997.
We tried a few 997.2's but the engine noise was a bit drone like and we didnt see the real world gain for the extra 20 grand. we dont give a stuff about resale value because there's no need to sell it unless they change the goalposts on emissions beyond reason.
Yeh I hear u about mileage… essentially this would be my forever car - reason why I’m being so nit picky. I thought the M2 would be something I keep forever, and as much as I love it, I do want something that’s a bit more of a traditional coupe as apposed to a two door saloon / coupe.We swapped back from a 991 to a 997.1 because we preferred the smaller and more fun chassis. We used ours without regard to mileage and replaced anything that needed doing without complaining as we bought the car cheap back in 2016. Bear in mind back then a BMW x5 was about 70 grand before it depreciates.
The dreaded bore score came along at 94k miles and we bit the bullet and had a rebuild. Rest of the car is in excellent shape. At 105,000 miles my wife still uses it daily and enjoys it. We get admiring comments whenever its parked up, i can't think of anything that would be enjoyable for the outlay.
We previously had a number of 911 dailies , 2.0S, 2.2S, 2.4S, several SC's , 964 Carrera 4, 964 RS, 991 and hands done the best allrounder back road bruiser that can cruise to Paris for the weekend in comfort and mix it with bigger boys is the 997.
We tried a few 997.2's but the engine noise was a bit drone like and we didnt see the real world gain for the extra 20 grand. we dont give a stuff about resale value because there's no need to sell it unless they change the goalposts on emissions beyond reason.
And yeh - essentially I’ll be doing Europe / Scotland trips in it… so want something that relatively worry free.
Anyway. I think I’m set on 997.2… so let’s see what comes up
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/14160626
Ok good value is still out there. That went quick!
£31k - for 35k miler - with a full Harlech rebuild at 25k miles.
Maybe it’s time to liquidate
Ok good value is still out there. That went quick!
£31k - for 35k miler - with a full Harlech rebuild at 25k miles.
Maybe it’s time to liquidate
julian987R said:
Nice manual Gen 2 997 on Fuchs. I reckon its a gem.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211221...
STUNNING!https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211221...
but way out of my budget, also Black colour would be a nightmare to look after...
magic Monkey Dust said:
Price also should reflect spec sheet.
When we bought our 997.1 we wanted Sports seats full electric, sport chrono, pasm , carrera classic alloys, sports exhaust and Bose. We had to compromise on lack of sun roof. Also for some reason the original owner hadn't specced cruise control, this can be retro fitted and we intend to do this when we fit the upgraded pccm+ when it comes out in future.
I hear you can also fit paddles and a 997.2 steering wheel so may do this as long as the multi function buttons are comparable.
To be fair i've really warmed to lobster claw wheels now. They didn't float my boat back in 2004 at launch. I loaned my Champagne yellow 1967 2.0S to Porsche for their launch party via the PCGB and remember the unveiling event being really impressed by the car but thinking it looked a little soft and large next to a 993. The 992 makes it look like a kids pedal car.
I personally prefer the 997.1, the original of any design is the one that lasts the distance. Look at how early 996 cable throttle cars are getting collectable. 964's C4's on those multi spoke launch wheels and impact bumper 2.7's.
Yeh I kinda know spec I want.When we bought our 997.1 we wanted Sports seats full electric, sport chrono, pasm , carrera classic alloys, sports exhaust and Bose. We had to compromise on lack of sun roof. Also for some reason the original owner hadn't specced cruise control, this can be retro fitted and we intend to do this when we fit the upgraded pccm+ when it comes out in future.
I hear you can also fit paddles and a 997.2 steering wheel so may do this as long as the multi function buttons are comparable.
To be fair i've really warmed to lobster claw wheels now. They didn't float my boat back in 2004 at launch. I loaned my Champagne yellow 1967 2.0S to Porsche for their launch party via the PCGB and remember the unveiling event being really impressed by the car but thinking it looked a little soft and large next to a 993. The 992 makes it look like a kids pedal car.
I personally prefer the 997.1, the original of any design is the one that lasts the distance. Look at how early 996 cable throttle cars are getting collectable. 964's C4's on those multi spoke launch wheels and impact bumper 2.7's.
Manual
No mods (only exceptions I'd be open to - Black cased headlights (OEM style) Fuchs wheels / and a Ducktail from a reputable Porsche aftermarket place)
Sports Chrono
Black Interior
Lobster Claws
Silver / Grey or White or any grey variation
PASM (Not sure how important this is - is it another thing to go wrong in future?)
Carrera 4 or 4S (for the wide hips) - but to be honest I think from drive perspective I'd prefer a C2 or C2S.
I didn't realise the sound is pretty different between gen 1 and gen 2. Sound is super important to me (we have same debate between M2 OG and M2 Comp - people preferring M2 OG sound!)
RiccardoG said:
Agreed, you don't want the worries to ruin your ownership experience. There is a lot to be said for peace of mind when running a pride and joy type car.
Curiously, have been thinking about getting into an M2 myself. They look great! Silly question, do you think it would be a bad choice if used largely in the city (London)? It all started by originally looking at the 218i... then man maths took hold!
Possibly bad choice for London but depends if you'd taking it out on drives on weekends out of London.Curiously, have been thinking about getting into an M2 myself. They look great! Silly question, do you think it would be a bad choice if used largely in the city (London)? It all started by originally looking at the 218i... then man maths took hold!
M2 is actually very easy to live with (to be honest possibly a bit easy - why I'm looking for something a bit more old school and raw). It's actually really nice to pootle around with window down (engine sound at low revs is lovely). Window up - it's a bit too insulated sound wise. All depends what you want from car - absolutely love how it looks, question is would you be happy driving the M2 slowly in town - if I'm honest it doesn't feel special enough sitting inside - but I'd say thats more down to it not being a traditional two seater coupe.
The main thing with the M2 is that at high revs it lacks that feel of the engine going all out - that drama that happens with old school cars. I use to have Z4 Coupe and the engine is to scream at high revs and in some ways felt more exciting when getting on it. And sitting inside one - it felt more special - hunkered down and low - car felt like wrapped around you.
If you don't nee practicality (or 4 seats) - I was thinking of getting a Z4M coupe before the M2 - might be a nice alternative over M2. Prices are creeping up slowly on them - but you do get 8000 RPM S54 engine - and its bloody rare sight on the road too... I think 1000 odd in UK only.
Or maybe an Aston Martin Vantage V8 - but heard running costs can be a nightmare.
Yeh I’ve decided to commit to waiting for gen 2 - inspite of the sound.
Also the 911 forum - one of the guys posted a quote on the 997.1 from Hartech themselves, and they seem to think it’s an issue of ‘when not if’ with bore scoring. So yeh for me, I’d rather have peace of mind.
Went to see this today it didn’t realise how good they look in the flesh. Not actually seen many of these on the road. I’m even think the standard body looks as good as the wide body C4.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210150...
Also the 911 forum - one of the guys posted a quote on the 997.1 from Hartech themselves, and they seem to think it’s an issue of ‘when not if’ with bore scoring. So yeh for me, I’d rather have peace of mind.
Went to see this today it didn’t realise how good they look in the flesh. Not actually seen many of these on the road. I’m even think the standard body looks as good as the wide body C4.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210150...
Tobermory said:
C2S comes with PASM as standard.
Bose is worth having
I’m not sure I’d be too fussed with sports chrono though, I’ve yet to meet anyone who actually uses it!
The sound really is different between the gen 1 and the DFI.
These cars are all about the experience and so for me 2wd gen 1 3.8. manual is pretty much the sweet spot.
Bose is worth having
I’m not sure I’d be too fussed with sports chrono though, I’ve yet to meet anyone who actually uses it!
The sound really is different between the gen 1 and the DFI.
These cars are all about the experience and so for me 2wd gen 1 3.8. manual is pretty much the sweet spot.
treetops said:
It may have been said already but a 987.1 Boxster S is getting towards a third of the price of a decent 997.1.
From the seats forward the two cars are pretty much the same. And the plus is the Boxster is a better handling car!
Boxsters are an equal amount of fun etc. and shouldn’t be discounted. If your hearts is set on a 997.1 then fine, but as Box S owner myself I would definitely consider one.
Yeh open tops aren’t for me otherwise. Might be different if I lived in Monaco tho… a Boxter 🕷 looks pretty badassFrom the seats forward the two cars are pretty much the same. And the plus is the Boxster is a better handling car!
Boxsters are an equal amount of fun etc. and shouldn’t be discounted. If your hearts is set on a 997.1 then fine, but as Box S owner myself I would definitely consider one.
Yeh love the spec (just a shame no chrono).
However mileage too high for me. I’d rather pay more for a low miler
However mileage too high for me. I’d rather pay more for a low miler
ATM said:
RiccardoG said:
Thanks for the insights, great to hear from an owner and exchange thoughts, what PH is all about! This would be the wife's car and I'd keep my 997 (.1 with "dodgy engine" 
). The points you highlight re the M2 are actually in favour for my intended use case, essentially family car with the upside of serious performance on occasion and being special by virtue of an M-car. Really need to test some come next year and see if I can stomach running costs of a second performance car.
Good luck with the search on the 911 front!
Thanks man, 😂 997.1 with a dodgy engine? Naa it’s high performance, means it need more tlc! ). The points you highlight re the M2 are actually in favour for my intended use case, essentially family car with the upside of serious performance on occasion and being special by virtue of an M-car. Really need to test some come next year and see if I can stomach running costs of a second performance car.Good luck with the search on the 911 front!
cabbalisticar said:
Don't discount the Gen 2 3.6. I think it sounds sweeter than the 3.8 and has a nice, revvy character. Personally, I think it's quick enough. Ultimately, it's 3.6 versus 3.8 of exactly the same engine. It's not a huge difference.
Yeh to be honest I’m not too fussed either way with 3.6 or 3.8 - it’s more fun driving a car fast with less power as opposed to a fast car slowly.Yeh I hear you, I completely with on this. Defo would go for the Hartech out of those two and yeh I’d say fair value considering the cost of a rebuild.
Yeh normally I’m not too fussed with cars with known issues, but the thing is if and when this issue occurs - it’s a big fat bill, which will I’d only want to get into knowing I have war chest fund behind me.
Anyway pretty much set on gen 2.
I wish Porsche themselves would decide to offer an upgrade / enhancement direct from themselves. I know Hartech have the reputation and they are great but as with anything of this nature it’s always nice to keep things OEM.
Yeh normally I’m not too fussed with cars with known issues, but the thing is if and when this issue occurs - it’s a big fat bill, which will I’d only want to get into knowing I have war chest fund behind me.
Anyway pretty much set on gen 2.
I wish Porsche themselves would decide to offer an upgrade / enhancement direct from themselves. I know Hartech have the reputation and they are great but as with anything of this nature it’s always nice to keep things OEM.
RemarkLima said:
Following this as it's an interesting mix...
Personally, purchased a 997.1 with a mind that if it borks, then get it fixed, if not, run it and enjoy it. It did end up needing the front crossover pipes doing (ouch) but so far everything else is OK. I've done of DIY bits on it (it's 17 years old!) and change the PCM.
However, soon after I got mine, there was a 997.1 with a Hartech rebuild for a few k more, which was a bit of a bummer. So they do come up, with a rebuild, for similar money to the non-rebuilt cars, or at least a small premium.
This for example, looks like good value...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211201...
That said, and I'm not sure why, but something on that ad isn't passing the sniff test? As this https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211231... is more money, not with a rebuild and just looks like a better car!
To the point, BMW diesel swirl flaps, BMW nikasil linings, VANOS failues, most cars DPF's, most cars Dual Mass flywheels, K-Series head gaskets, Mazda rotary cracked tips, and no doubt every other internet message would have you believe these (and many more) are absolutes, and 100% certain to happen to every car. Clearly, this isn't always true.
Why worry about something that may not happen? And bore-scoring isn't a catastrophic failure, so you have time to plan should it happen, and it'll not leave you stranded at the side of the road. For me it was a 997.2 for at least £10k - 15k more, or find a good 997.1 with a borescope done and have the spare cash as a war chest? it's only not our only car, and I do not do that many miles.
Personally, purchased a 997.1 with a mind that if it borks, then get it fixed, if not, run it and enjoy it. It did end up needing the front crossover pipes doing (ouch) but so far everything else is OK. I've done of DIY bits on it (it's 17 years old!) and change the PCM.
However, soon after I got mine, there was a 997.1 with a Hartech rebuild for a few k more, which was a bit of a bummer. So they do come up, with a rebuild, for similar money to the non-rebuilt cars, or at least a small premium.
This for example, looks like good value...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211201...
That said, and I'm not sure why, but something on that ad isn't passing the sniff test? As this https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211231... is more money, not with a rebuild and just looks like a better car!
To the point, BMW diesel swirl flaps, BMW nikasil linings, VANOS failues, most cars DPF's, most cars Dual Mass flywheels, K-Series head gaskets, Mazda rotary cracked tips, and no doubt every other internet message would have you believe these (and many more) are absolutes, and 100% certain to happen to every car. Clearly, this isn't always true.
Why worry about something that may not happen? And bore-scoring isn't a catastrophic failure, so you have time to plan should it happen, and it'll not leave you stranded at the side of the road. For me it was a 997.2 for at least £10k - 15k more, or find a good 997.1 with a borescope done and have the spare cash as a war chest? it's only not our only car, and I do not do that many miles.
ATM said:
With every generation these cars get more and more sanitised. So it is possible that the Gen 1 is a more raw car than the Gen 2 but not sure you would actually notice. And do you want raw or do you want newer? Even if the Gen 1 engine is only half new it is still all fully rebuilt with new gaskets etc. Maybe that means it will last longer - who knows.
Yeh it’s not just the engine only tbh. The interior colour and layout I prefer on gen 2. Also prefer the rear lights and bumper on gen 2. And of course the reliability of gen 2 (what I’m aware of anyway).The newer thing - doesn’t bother me so much, in fact I kind like the idea of having the older car… the main reason I was thinking of going for gen 1 is I could make it my own with minimal tasteful mods and actually make it a very very long term project. I can actually see the gen 1s eventually becoming the car companies like Singer take on a restomod. Which is kinda what I was thinking of doing. Kinda like the CSR - https://youtu.be/ANmQyLI70-g
However with a gen 2 - I wouldn’t want to change anything… and keep it exactly OEM
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