993RS & 964RS in the wet
Discussion
Not blowing me own trumpet you understand, but I have a track day at Oulton Park last Saturday (thanks Tim) and it turned out to be one of those interesting wet to dry, piss down then wet to dry days. The ole 993RS CS on worn P Zero's had me lapping round in the 2min 10's destroying all and sundry, just so, so funny coming up behind R500's and watching them tip toe around wagging their tail like a labrador puppy struggling to beat 2m 25s. It dried out enough later for a drt line to appear at which point the yella peril posted around 1m 56/57 on a clear run yet the R500s were hovering still around the 2m 05-10. Most satisfying indeed.
So, who says 911's are a handful in the wet?? You can feel them every inch of the way through trail brake understeer turn in to feather throttle oversteer exit, can nail it on the straights and hammer the brakes on with total confidence. John & Adrian joined me after lunch (964RS & 993RS) and we pegged the field again for another 30 minutes. You can easily forget that the RS is a formidable tool, but who says that they are tricky in the wet? My mate Pete Morris put his 964RS CS on pole at Donnington (in front of Richard Chamberlain!) courtesy of the rain.
I recommend that everyone should get out on the circuits for a winter track day and have a play, it will teach you to be precise and smooth so as not to deliberately upset the car. You will undoubtedly end up a better driver as a result, I certainly learn more after every wet session that I do. My only wish is that I had the confidence to find the edge of grip as easily in the dry as I now can in the wet.....
So, who says 911's are a handful in the wet?? You can feel them every inch of the way through trail brake understeer turn in to feather throttle oversteer exit, can nail it on the straights and hammer the brakes on with total confidence. John & Adrian joined me after lunch (964RS & 993RS) and we pegged the field again for another 30 minutes. You can easily forget that the RS is a formidable tool, but who says that they are tricky in the wet? My mate Pete Morris put his 964RS CS on pole at Donnington (in front of Richard Chamberlain!) courtesy of the rain.
I recommend that everyone should get out on the circuits for a winter track day and have a play, it will teach you to be precise and smooth so as not to deliberately upset the car. You will undoubtedly end up a better driver as a result, I certainly learn more after every wet session that I do. My only wish is that I had the confidence to find the edge of grip as easily in the dry as I now can in the wet.....
Have done wet track days and agree you can swoosh past more cicumspect drivers in supposedly quicker cars. TVRs, anyone? Nice in the dry, but most drivers acquire a superlight right foot in the wet.
But, one big reason for not driving on wet track days is visibility. It can get scary - very scary. So pity the poor R500 driver, sat lower with only aero screens, where we sit in relative comfort. I doubt he'd want to get anywhere near you!
But, one big reason for not driving on wet track days is visibility. It can get scary - very scary. So pity the poor R500 driver, sat lower with only aero screens, where we sit in relative comfort. I doubt he'd want to get anywhere near you!
peter_964rs said: Have done wet track days and agree you can swoosh past more cicumspect drivers in supposedly quicker cars. TVRs, anyone? Nice in the dry, but most drivers acquire a superlight right foot in the wet.
Being rear engined will improve traction in slippery conditions. This is very noticeable at sprints. Having said that, it takes a lot of skill and commitment to drive cars with this level of performance at the limit in slippery conditions and the driver probably makes more difference than the car.
Personally, I find dry track days far more fun in my TVR because the car slides so much more progressively, it is possible to explore the limit of grip without worrying about it breaking away. In the wet, once the car stars to slide the grip drops off very quickly and it takes a lot more work to balance the car. It does in a TVR, anyway.
Cheers,
Peter Humphries (and a green V8S)
On the day it was not raining during the track time so visibility was not a factor at all; as for feeling sorry for someone who has spent £25,000 on a glorified rollerscate, who are you kidding???
Regarding dry track days, the point that I am making relative to the TVR's is that the level of grip of the CS on P Zero C's is such that discovering the limit is big balls teritory, and not everyone is prepared to explore these limits such is the commitment required. I have done many Oulton days with TVR's about, including Cerberas, Tuscans and others, and none can get within 5 seconds of a well driven RS. Mind you, that might be because effective brakes are an afterthought in Blackpool.
Regarding dry track days, the point that I am making relative to the TVR's is that the level of grip of the CS on P Zero C's is such that discovering the limit is big balls teritory, and not everyone is prepared to explore these limits such is the commitment required. I have done many Oulton days with TVR's about, including Cerberas, Tuscans and others, and none can get within 5 seconds of a well driven RS. Mind you, that might be because effective brakes are an afterthought in Blackpool.
Fair play to Mr B!
However, for the less talented mortals like me, dipping their toe in the waters of 911RSdom for the first time, I can testify that the 964RS is a trickier car *for me* to drive in the wet than in the dry. Indeed, whilst I can four wheel drift the 'lil bastard' in the dry, I have been caught out by the speed and duration of an accidental wet weather slide. With more skill (and more regard for the laws of traction on exiting a corner!) I could probably hustle the car quite quickly on a wet circuit - but there is no denying that the 964RS takes more talent to drive near the limit in the wet than other sports cars, because it is easy for the inexperienced or insensitive to overstep them.
The Lotus Carlton I owned was probably easier to drive in falling snow than the RS in the wet - the power steering, soft suspension and front engine, all allowed the tail to hang out more slowly and more controllably than the razor sharp RS, even if the limits may ultimately have been lower.
So yes, in some ways the RSs have an undeserved wet weather reputation, as driven sensitively they have the grip and the handling. But they also have a deserved reputation for being a handful because they are trickier for the less skilled or experienced to drive near, on or beyond the limits.
However, for the less talented mortals like me, dipping their toe in the waters of 911RSdom for the first time, I can testify that the 964RS is a trickier car *for me* to drive in the wet than in the dry. Indeed, whilst I can four wheel drift the 'lil bastard' in the dry, I have been caught out by the speed and duration of an accidental wet weather slide. With more skill (and more regard for the laws of traction on exiting a corner!) I could probably hustle the car quite quickly on a wet circuit - but there is no denying that the 964RS takes more talent to drive near the limit in the wet than other sports cars, because it is easy for the inexperienced or insensitive to overstep them.
The Lotus Carlton I owned was probably easier to drive in falling snow than the RS in the wet - the power steering, soft suspension and front engine, all allowed the tail to hang out more slowly and more controllably than the razor sharp RS, even if the limits may ultimately have been lower.
So yes, in some ways the RSs have an undeserved wet weather reputation, as driven sensitively they have the grip and the handling. But they also have a deserved reputation for being a handful because they are trickier for the less skilled or experienced to drive near, on or beyond the limits.
Dom,
I wondered when you would rise to the bait. In fairness to yourself, the 964RS is trickier to wet drive than the 993RS because it is stiffer out of the box. There is also a tendency for most owners to slam the cars to the floor and run them full hard on the anti-roll bar settings which makes them worse, so no wonder they can be a bit of a handfull and develop their reputation.
However, what I'm driving at (sic) is that both RS's can be set up forgivingly for wet weather, and then when pushed will be faster than almost any equivalent track day machine. As for 4wd bretheren, not even a well driven 370bhp 'bishi Evo could keep up with us on a wet Oulton Park last year and ended up in the grass trying.
My point is that maybe these other track weapons are not all that they appear (not just overpriced and Japanese) in comparison with any RS, and that maybe we should all get out, soften the bars up, practice and set the record straight?
I wondered when you would rise to the bait. In fairness to yourself, the 964RS is trickier to wet drive than the 993RS because it is stiffer out of the box. There is also a tendency for most owners to slam the cars to the floor and run them full hard on the anti-roll bar settings which makes them worse, so no wonder they can be a bit of a handfull and develop their reputation.
However, what I'm driving at (sic) is that both RS's can be set up forgivingly for wet weather, and then when pushed will be faster than almost any equivalent track day machine. As for 4wd bretheren, not even a well driven 370bhp 'bishi Evo could keep up with us on a wet Oulton Park last year and ended up in the grass trying.
My point is that maybe these other track weapons are not all that they appear (not just overpriced and Japanese) in comparison with any RS, and that maybe we should all get out, soften the bars up, practice and set the record straight?
Anyone here track a 964C2 Tip? I'm interested in trying mine on a track but would appreciate any comments on things to look out for. The car is stock at the moment, although I am looking at lowering in the nearby future. Great to hear that the PCar fraternity dominate the trackday events, makes me even more proud to own one!
Richard,
You will be ok with the tip if you are not a hard charger, but if you are thinking late braking and tailsliding then forget it, the brakes will give up due to the extra weight and you cannot control the power slides though a torque converter. Sorry to break it to you gently (hmmm) but the best place for the tip is in the city, not on the track but do not let me put you off having a go if you have not been on one before.
You will be ok with the tip if you are not a hard charger, but if you are thinking late braking and tailsliding then forget it, the brakes will give up due to the extra weight and you cannot control the power slides though a torque converter. Sorry to break it to you gently (hmmm) but the best place for the tip is in the city, not on the track but do not let me put you off having a go if you have not been on one before.
Pretty obvious really, for the 964 start with full soft on the anti-roll bars and near stock RS ride height and geometry, maybe 1.5 degrees neg and maybe a little less front toe if you are experienced. The 993 can still run with 2 degree neg and start with middle settings on the arbs, but run with straight ahead or a smidgeon of toe out on the front, it makes it a little less sensitive. My 993RS CS runs 2 & 2.5 degrees neg, -10 & + 20 toe, 5 30 castor and as low as it will go, especially on the rear; arb's I usually leave in the middle. The car placed 1st & 2nd on the PCGB national sprint at Ty Croes this year on these settings, with P Zero C tyres, so they aren't that bad.
If you don't know what the heck I'm on about, don't ask me to explain, bring your car up and we'll do the set up for you and I'll explain it all as we go.
If you don't know what the heck I'm on about, don't ask me to explain, bring your car up and we'll do the set up for you and I'll explain it all as we go.
Ninemeister, slightly O/T but I have a 964 C4 that I would like to dial out some of the inherent understeer through an alignment set-up. I realise that ultimately I will need to go down the lowered and uprated suspension route, but I was wondering how much can be affected initially through an optimised alignment and what would be the cost?
Cheers
Nick
Cheers
Nick
Nick,
The only way we ever eliminated understeer on a 964C4 was to fit a handling kit & a larger rear anti roll bar. Mind you, thinking about it, the 500bhp turbo conversion helped as well.
Seriously the problem you have is weight and weight transfer, so it really needs stiffer springs and dampers to do anything noticeable. Typically though, a wheel alignment takes 2-3 hours @ £40 per hr, and a handling kit would be around £1500 fitted and aligned, both + VAT.
In future though, as I do not want to incur the wrath of the site moderator, if anyone is after quotes could you please mail me direct & not through the forum, I'm here to help not advertise.
The only way we ever eliminated understeer on a 964C4 was to fit a handling kit & a larger rear anti roll bar. Mind you, thinking about it, the 500bhp turbo conversion helped as well.
Seriously the problem you have is weight and weight transfer, so it really needs stiffer springs and dampers to do anything noticeable. Typically though, a wheel alignment takes 2-3 hours @ £40 per hr, and a handling kit would be around £1500 fitted and aligned, both + VAT.
In future though, as I do not want to incur the wrath of the site moderator, if anyone is after quotes could you please mail me direct & not through the forum, I'm here to help not advertise.
In the wet? Had a ball at Brands yesterday, even on shot POC's!....but 'softer' RS quicker than my Cup around the corners, and his tyres were legal.... bears out Colin's comments about softening the suspension in the wet.
C4 -my old one had lowered suspension, strut brace, 290bhp and -1 camber on the front -that helped eliminate a lot of the understeer + trail braking into the corners to set it up. Have fun!!
C4 -my old one had lowered suspension, strut brace, 290bhp and -1 camber on the front -that helped eliminate a lot of the understeer + trail braking into the corners to set it up. Have fun!!
Thanks for the replies. Looks like I'll invest in the alignment first (-1 camber etc) whilst i save up for the H & R/Bilstein kit!
I want to spend my money on the chassis before i look at the engine - although i have fitted a bypass pipe for the primary silencer and the infamous drilled airbox cover!
Ninemeister, I only live 5 miles away so, despite my best efforts, I suspect that I'm going to be paying you a few expensive visits this next year!
Cheers
Nick
I want to spend my money on the chassis before i look at the engine - although i have fitted a bypass pipe for the primary silencer and the infamous drilled airbox cover!
Ninemeister, I only live 5 miles away so, despite my best efforts, I suspect that I'm going to be paying you a few expensive visits this next year!
Cheers
Nick
Nick,
You're welcome. It would pay you to pop in anyway as we can dial you in to Tim at Millenium track club, Tim organises a lot of track days at Oulton Park (has dates for December) and is very reasonably priced, so once your car is set up there will be many opportunities to practise that trail braking without breaking the bank.
You're welcome. It would pay you to pop in anyway as we can dial you in to Tim at Millenium track club, Tim organises a lot of track days at Oulton Park (has dates for December) and is very reasonably priced, so once your car is set up there will be many opportunities to practise that trail braking without breaking the bank.
Whooo -Oulton, my favourite track. Shame it's four hours from here, but an annual pilgrimage is vital.
Malcolm Hamilton, Chief Instructor, drove my Cup Car earlier this year and it was an absolute pleasure to be driven around by him. His opening comments were, 'I don't usually like 911's.........but I like this, it's neutral'. Just what I wanted to hear. To watch him feed the gear lever sympathetically through the box and just move the weight of the car around under breaking and acceleration was pure joy -good to watch a master at work and see how smoothness is the key.
Melv.
Malcolm Hamilton, Chief Instructor, drove my Cup Car earlier this year and it was an absolute pleasure to be driven around by him. His opening comments were, 'I don't usually like 911's.........but I like this, it's neutral'. Just what I wanted to hear. To watch him feed the gear lever sympathetically through the box and just move the weight of the car around under breaking and acceleration was pure joy -good to watch a master at work and see how smoothness is the key.
Melv.
Melv,
Oulton is my local haunt, usually visit it 4 or 5 times a year, top circuit and a devil to master, but there is nothing like getting into the groove for a few fast laps and showing the kit cars how to do it. We'll have to organise a spring track day for next year, anyone interested at around £160 per head for an open pit lane?
Oulton is my local haunt, usually visit it 4 or 5 times a year, top circuit and a devil to master, but there is nothing like getting into the groove for a few fast laps and showing the kit cars how to do it. We'll have to organise a spring track day for next year, anyone interested at around £160 per head for an open pit lane?
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