Is a 968 Club Sport my best buy for <£15k?
Discussion
Paul968 said:
Colin - you say the car has non-M030 suspension. Does that mean you are not running with an LSD? If you don't have one fitted, how does the car cope with the power out of slow corners?
(I do realise that LSD is not standard on M030 but I'm not aware of factory fitted M030 cars without one)
Our CS is a non-M030 but has option M220 which is factory LSD (torsen). No problem putting down 300lbft & 350bhp at the limiter.
ive seen Simon's CS, pristine condition, not sure of the miles but i was drooling over it when i took my 996 to the garage to have some work done.
seemed to be in collectors condition and the mechanic in there was saying I should of bought it instead of my 911! (the cheek of that hey!)
>> Edited by DucatiGary on Monday 19th September 15:53
seemed to be in collectors condition and the mechanic in there was saying I should of bought it instead of my 911! (the cheek of that hey!)
>> Edited by DucatiGary on Monday 19th September 15:53
DucatiGary said:
ive seen Simon's CS, pristine condition, not sure of the miles but i was drooling over it when i took my 996 to the garage to have some work done.
seemed to be in collectors condition and the mechanic in there was saying I should of bought it instead of my 911! (the cheek of that hey!)
>> Edited by DucatiGary on Monday 19th September 15:53
I wanted it mint so gave a blank cheque. Weeks before finishing it Phill found a 911 turbo 2 3.6 which I had to have, so the CS has to go unfortunately.
ninemeister said:
There is no comparison to a standard 964 when it comes to handling & track aplomb, the only problem with the cars is that they are relatively heavy. So, although the cars are great out of the box they are awesome with more grunt, for everyday use I would recommend a Sport and make sure you buy one without aircon to leave space for the supercharger!
Perhaps the aircon could be retained with this alternative approach
www.renegadehybrids.com/LS-1/ls1conversionkit.html
shed17 said:
A Sport or even a standard coupe is just as good
While this might be true in a broad sense, it isn't when you get into specifics. Since track days are on the list of requirements, a coupe is not going to be as good as a CS or Sport because of the higher ride height, softer setup, more weight and smaller wheels. A Sport is good, but on track the seats in a CS are much better (not so good on a longer journey and useless if you want to put your kids in the back). The CS should also be the lightest, but many have options added which will bring the weight back up nearer a Sport. A coupe should be the best daily driver with its greater compliance and more toys, but will lose some of the edge the other two have. At the end of the day, any decision must primarily be based on what you want from the car.
Paul
I'd save yourself a whole load of wedge and get a 944 Turbo... get it up to 350BHP then go out and kick Gt3's butts!
But if you're looking for a toy then I agree a sport is a more sensible buy than a CS... lets face it all of these cars are old and some of the parts are well past the sell by date so a "cheaper" sport plus some KW suspension will be the better use of £15K... you could go out and spend 15K on a CS and still find out it needs the same amount of work to turn it into a decent track car as a £5K 944 turbo or a £10K 968 sport.
Remember the sport only exists as a model in the UK... even if you run the VIN plate at an OPC it will come back as a "Club Sp" out of the box they are the same thing but with different seats!!
But if you're looking for a toy then I agree a sport is a more sensible buy than a CS... lets face it all of these cars are old and some of the parts are well past the sell by date so a "cheaper" sport plus some KW suspension will be the better use of £15K... you could go out and spend 15K on a CS and still find out it needs the same amount of work to turn it into a decent track car as a £5K 944 turbo or a £10K 968 sport.
Remember the sport only exists as a model in the UK... even if you run the VIN plate at an OPC it will come back as a "Club Sp" out of the box they are the same thing but with different seats!!
IMHO the CS is simply the best car that money can buy to learn to drive quickly on the track. It is so forgiving on the limit that even a complete nob like me can look good. On the road it's not at all comfortable, particularly those bloody recaro seats which murder those with a growing waistline. It's still good fun though!!
I've just sold my CS to buy a GT3 and whilst the GT3 is miles faster, it's a whole lot more demanding to drive quickly on a track(Partly due to the knowledge that it's worth about 3 times as musch as the CS). It's a whole new learning experience.
I would definitely recommend a CS if you can find a good one. Try to fins a hens teeth model with full M030 inc LSD if you can, better still if it's had a recent KW suspension upgrade. LSD a must for track work.
Look on www.968uk.co.uk to find CS's for sale or specific buying advice.
Steve
I've just sold my CS to buy a GT3 and whilst the GT3 is miles faster, it's a whole lot more demanding to drive quickly on a track(Partly due to the knowledge that it's worth about 3 times as musch as the CS). It's a whole new learning experience.
I would definitely recommend a CS if you can find a good one. Try to fins a hens teeth model with full M030 inc LSD if you can, better still if it's had a recent KW suspension upgrade. LSD a must for track work.
Look on www.968uk.co.uk to find CS's for sale or specific buying advice.
Steve
paulburrell said:
LSD a must for track work.
Hijack alert...
Why is an LSD essential? I've a Sport which is used pretty much only for track days - has no LSD. I've driven cars equipped with LSD's & found no difference in lap times. Then again I've heard that torsen & ZF LSD's are very different & a lot of benefit comes from driving style.
The Sport is mechanically identical to the CS. The only differences are that the Sport has extra equipment:
Electric windows & Electric/heated mirrors
"Comfort" seats
Rear Seats
Electric tailgate release
Central locking
...errr...I think thats it. As a result of the extra electrics it also has the bigger/heavier wiring loom.
The weight difference between a "true" CS (i.e. no extras) and a Coupe is only about 50kg, bewteen a CS and a Sport, even less. The SPort was introduced because so many UK CS's were getting specced with all the above equipment (or at least the electrics), ergo, many UK CS's will not be that much lighter than a Sport or Coupe.
Keep an open mind about which model you go for - buy on condition, you won't be disappointed with any of them. Quite a few people find the CS seats a bit of a pain day-to-day. The Comfort seats are excellent for normal driving - and fairly supportive, but obviously compromised for track use.
By the way, my Sport is for sale in the classifieds..metallic black, low mileage...mail me if interested!
Electric windows & Electric/heated mirrors
"Comfort" seats
Rear Seats
Electric tailgate release
Central locking
...errr...I think thats it. As a result of the extra electrics it also has the bigger/heavier wiring loom.
The weight difference between a "true" CS (i.e. no extras) and a Coupe is only about 50kg, bewteen a CS and a Sport, even less. The SPort was introduced because so many UK CS's were getting specced with all the above equipment (or at least the electrics), ergo, many UK CS's will not be that much lighter than a Sport or Coupe.
Keep an open mind about which model you go for - buy on condition, you won't be disappointed with any of them. Quite a few people find the CS seats a bit of a pain day-to-day. The Comfort seats are excellent for normal driving - and fairly supportive, but obviously compromised for track use.
By the way, my Sport is for sale in the classifieds..metallic black, low mileage...mail me if interested!
The sport has 4 normal seats rather than 2 race seats and a few more electrics e.g. windows I think, so essentially the seats and a bit of weight are the differences.
The CS was absolutely fantastic on track, its hard to explain quire how forgiving it is, but even my instructor was surprised by quite how many spins I saved. Not sure how much of this you would lose with a coupe, but as you say it could easily be changed and most cars of this age CS or not could probably do with the suspension freshening up anyway.
I would have enjoyed mine more on the road if it hadn't been CS however, as it would have been easier to live with. The fact you can't cover the boot is a real bind for briefcases, computers etc
Buy the best car you can find and don; get too bogged down in spec, would be my advice for the type of usage you are describing. M030, LSD etc might be more important if you hare tracking 20 times year, but even a non M030 car will be great and you can always upgrade if your needs change.
The main difference between a Sport and a Club Sport is the seats. A Sport has fairly normal 'comfort' seats which tilt to allow access to the rear seats. The CS has rigid buckets which provide much more side support for track driving but are a bit of a pain for everyday use - they have very high sides which you have to almost climb over to get in. The also don't move and so you can't get in the back - which is a moot point really as there are no rear seats.
The other things are mainly electrics - the CS has no leccy windows or mirrors, no central locking and a cable release inside the car to open the boot - no way to do it from the outside. All this reduces the weight somewhat, which apparently does make a difference.
If track days are not too important to you then a Sport would seem a better bet. As far as taking a coupe and upgrading it, it might be a possibility if you can find a very cheap one to start with which needs a suspension refresh, but don't expect it to be cheap. You will also probably not get the value back when you come to sell as modified cars are less valued than originals. No need to upgrade the brakes as those on a coupe are the same as a CS.
Hope that helps
Paul
The other things are mainly electrics - the CS has no leccy windows or mirrors, no central locking and a cable release inside the car to open the boot - no way to do it from the outside. All this reduces the weight somewhat, which apparently does make a difference.
If track days are not too important to you then a Sport would seem a better bet. As far as taking a coupe and upgrading it, it might be a possibility if you can find a very cheap one to start with which needs a suspension refresh, but don't expect it to be cheap. You will also probably not get the value back when you come to sell as modified cars are less valued than originals. No need to upgrade the brakes as those on a coupe are the same as a CS.
Hope that helps
Paul
The main difference between CS and the rest of the 968 world is image.
They have reached - not undeservedly - a cult status similar to the RS in the 911 world, and that keeps the residuals high. So you pay more to buy one but it loses less money over time (unless you bought new, whereupon it was cheaper than a normal model).
If you want a more depreciation proof purchase, ignore the dynamic similarities posed by the Sport etc. and stump up for the CS decals.
Sad - in some ways - but true. If you're not image conscious then the Sport etc do offer great value for money in comparison.
Remember, the tippy cab was probably a 45k car when new and they are some of the least sought after 968s now, having shown the biggest overall drop. The 28k when new (?) CS can still be as high as 20k RHD.
They have reached - not undeservedly - a cult status similar to the RS in the 911 world, and that keeps the residuals high. So you pay more to buy one but it loses less money over time (unless you bought new, whereupon it was cheaper than a normal model).
If you want a more depreciation proof purchase, ignore the dynamic similarities posed by the Sport etc. and stump up for the CS decals.
Sad - in some ways - but true. If you're not image conscious then the Sport etc do offer great value for money in comparison.
Remember, the tippy cab was probably a 45k car when new and they are some of the least sought after 968s now, having shown the biggest overall drop. The 28k when new (?) CS can still be as high as 20k RHD.
The '50kg' quoted difference between a CS and coupe isn't really a representative figure.
Whereas the CS was pretty much as if comes, the coupe's homogulated weight was based on a base vehicle, i.e. no sunroof, no a/c, no leather, no stereo upgrade, 16" wheels etc.
In reality I suspect the difference is more like 100kgs for a typical coupe spec, but it would be interesting to see any real life weighbridge figures.
Interestingly, the Sport/CS's are also a few 10ths faster to 60mph, and a couple of mph faster at the top-end. Porsche didn't publish this at the time in order to avoid a whole new type approval process.
I've owned a coupe in the past. Its a very different driving experience, but its difficult to tell if a CS is faster, or if its just the general racket makes it seem so.
FWIW, my rhd CS has Recaro seats, no sunroof, lsd, no M030 but a/c and 4 speakers.
SS7
Whereas the CS was pretty much as if comes, the coupe's homogulated weight was based on a base vehicle, i.e. no sunroof, no a/c, no leather, no stereo upgrade, 16" wheels etc.
In reality I suspect the difference is more like 100kgs for a typical coupe spec, but it would be interesting to see any real life weighbridge figures.
Interestingly, the Sport/CS's are also a few 10ths faster to 60mph, and a couple of mph faster at the top-end. Porsche didn't publish this at the time in order to avoid a whole new type approval process.
I've owned a coupe in the past. Its a very different driving experience, but its difficult to tell if a CS is faster, or if its just the general racket makes it seem so.
FWIW, my rhd CS has Recaro seats, no sunroof, lsd, no M030 but a/c and 4 speakers.
SS7
aasc
I found that whenever I went around corners at speed the stiff suspension meant that the inside rear wheel would always lift and look to break traction. The LSD counteracted that by putting that wasted effort into the wheel with the grip. I noticed the difference when my LSD failed and getting the power on through the corners was an exercise in wheel spinning and little or no forward progress.
I found that whenever I went around corners at speed the stiff suspension meant that the inside rear wheel would always lift and look to break traction. The LSD counteracted that by putting that wasted effort into the wheel with the grip. I noticed the difference when my LSD failed and getting the power on through the corners was an exercise in wheel spinning and little or no forward progress.
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