Discussion
Morning everyone.
Long time lurker, but just joined up. After realising how inexpensive it seems to be at the moment to get into Porsche ownership, i've been looking around quite a bit at a few motors and wondered if i could get your thoughts on a couple of things.
I recently viewed an X Reg 911 3.0 sc in navy blue with 97K on the clock. It seemed ok after a cursory check over but the price is the thing thats worrying me - it was up for only £8995.
I understand it was from a non-specialist sales place (in fact, that it was run out of an industrial unit was rather concerning too) would mean a reduced price but i'm all too aware of the potential for big bills with these motors. Is it a walk away job or are there any merits in taking a chance on something like this if its the right price?
Secondly, i've been looking at S2 or Turbo SE 944's. Fab cars in their own right and very cheap to get into at the moment. Couple of questions though. Would you be suspicious if a 944 was fitted with 968 sill covers? I'm wondering what they are hiding - are the sills a troublespot for 944's? What are your thoughts on cosmetic "upgrades" on Porsche's in general?
Finally, and it's can of worms time. Which do you think would be more suitable for a 1st time Porsche owner? Late 70's or early 80's 911 or late 80's early 90's 944?
Thanks in advance.
Long time lurker, but just joined up. After realising how inexpensive it seems to be at the moment to get into Porsche ownership, i've been looking around quite a bit at a few motors and wondered if i could get your thoughts on a couple of things.
I recently viewed an X Reg 911 3.0 sc in navy blue with 97K on the clock. It seemed ok after a cursory check over but the price is the thing thats worrying me - it was up for only £8995.
I understand it was from a non-specialist sales place (in fact, that it was run out of an industrial unit was rather concerning too) would mean a reduced price but i'm all too aware of the potential for big bills with these motors. Is it a walk away job or are there any merits in taking a chance on something like this if its the right price?
Secondly, i've been looking at S2 or Turbo SE 944's. Fab cars in their own right and very cheap to get into at the moment. Couple of questions though. Would you be suspicious if a 944 was fitted with 968 sill covers? I'm wondering what they are hiding - are the sills a troublespot for 944's? What are your thoughts on cosmetic "upgrades" on Porsche's in general?
Finally, and it's can of worms time. Which do you think would be more suitable for a 1st time Porsche owner? Late 70's or early 80's 911 or late 80's early 90's 944?
Thanks in advance.
I guess it depends what you want from your motoring. The 944 is (IMHO) a more useable daily driver whereas the 911 is more of a "classic" (or, indeed, icon). Both have the potential to cause serious wallet damage, but both can also be kept in decent nick for surprisingly little if they are basically sound to start with.
Whatever you go for you are going to need the services of a decent independent specialist. Probably worth getting in touch with your local ones (check out the list here: www.911-classified.com/members/independ.html and look in the magazines) and seeing if they are prepared to do a pre-purchase inspection for you. Probably only £200 or so and they'll give you an idea of what you might need to spend on rectification (you can use the report to batter the price probably by far more than the £200 it will cost you). The SC at the non-specialist trading estate could be a dog or could be a gem - an inspection will soon tell you.
For what little its worth, I'd go for the 911!!!
Whatever you get, let us know and enjoy it!
Whatever you go for you are going to need the services of a decent independent specialist. Probably worth getting in touch with your local ones (check out the list here: www.911-classified.com/members/independ.html and look in the magazines) and seeing if they are prepared to do a pre-purchase inspection for you. Probably only £200 or so and they'll give you an idea of what you might need to spend on rectification (you can use the report to batter the price probably by far more than the £200 it will cost you). The SC at the non-specialist trading estate could be a dog or could be a gem - an inspection will soon tell you.
For what little its worth, I'd go for the 911!!!
Whatever you get, let us know and enjoy it!
You really need to decide what you're after. I would say get the 911 for the experience, especially if you've always hankered after one, but the 944 will almost certainly give you more for your money as they are less valuable car for car and also more competent in terms of travelling from A to B.
944s are still a Porsche and still quite special but they are not a 911 - I've never driven one but what I've read on here and other places leads me to believe that they simply don't have the character and lovability of a 911.
With regard to what car to go for you MUST ensure that you buy a car that has documentation to prove it's authenticity. If you're happy with something that's been modified then that's up to you, although I personally believe that it indicates a lesser car, but you should always buy on condition and on provable history. Thoroughly check the service history first - preferably with invoices etc to back it up. If this is good get the car HPI'd and if that's OK then get it inspected by a Porsche specialist. There are also some buying guides out there if you fancy going private - which I've always done.
Lastly, there are SCs out there for around £10k and also plenty of 944s so the money's OK but I would suggest looking at as many as possible and don't worry about mileage over condition/history - these cars go on and on.
944s are still a Porsche and still quite special but they are not a 911 - I've never driven one but what I've read on here and other places leads me to believe that they simply don't have the character and lovability of a 911.
With regard to what car to go for you MUST ensure that you buy a car that has documentation to prove it's authenticity. If you're happy with something that's been modified then that's up to you, although I personally believe that it indicates a lesser car, but you should always buy on condition and on provable history. Thoroughly check the service history first - preferably with invoices etc to back it up. If this is good get the car HPI'd and if that's OK then get it inspected by a Porsche specialist. There are also some buying guides out there if you fancy going private - which I've always done.
Lastly, there are SCs out there for around £10k and also plenty of 944s so the money's OK but I would suggest looking at as many as possible and don't worry about mileage over condition/history - these cars go on and on.
I had a 944 as my first car and loved it. However, I do now have a 911, so read into that what you will ... 
If I had the space I'd still have the 944 - it was a fantastic car, quick enough, very, very reliable, suprisingly practical and imo looked good (it was an '89 S2).
I think the 944 is a perfect intro to Porsche ownership. It doesn't have the charisma of a 911 but nor does it have its quirks. For that money I'd go for the 944 keep it for a year or two and then see if you still want the 911.
The only caution would be that 944s are easy to buy but harder to sell, but then the starting outlay shouldn't be that great, say 5-6k for a decent S2?
Dan
If I had the space I'd still have the 944 - it was a fantastic car, quick enough, very, very reliable, suprisingly practical and imo looked good (it was an '89 S2).
I think the 944 is a perfect intro to Porsche ownership. It doesn't have the charisma of a 911 but nor does it have its quirks. For that money I'd go for the 944 keep it for a year or two and then see if you still want the 911.
The only caution would be that 944s are easy to buy but harder to sell, but then the starting outlay shouldn't be that great, say 5-6k for a decent S2?
Dan
To be honest, the 911 had my heart fluttering more than the 944. But linen leather seats front and back but black door cards and carpets got me thinking "these aren't the originals". Plus the location as i said earlier made me rather suspicious.
I'm going to be using the car on a daily basis and it'll be parked on the driveway at nights. As i understand it, both cars are galvanised (or is it only the later 80's 911 that were like this) so rust shouldn't be a problem. At least i hope not as i live on the North East coast and the salt air tends to demolish things left out in the open, like letterboxes, external lights, etc, etc.
The final thing is that i might on occasion need to transport both the missus and our 1 year old in the car on short journeys. Are both capable of this?
I'm going to be using the car on a daily basis and it'll be parked on the driveway at nights. As i understand it, both cars are galvanised (or is it only the later 80's 911 that were like this) so rust shouldn't be a problem. At least i hope not as i live on the North East coast and the salt air tends to demolish things left out in the open, like letterboxes, external lights, etc, etc.
The final thing is that i might on occasion need to transport both the missus and our 1 year old in the car on short journeys. Are both capable of this?
domster said:
The final thing is that i might on occasion need to transport both the missus and our 1 year old in the car on short journeys. Are both capable of this?
Yes.
With some difficulty ...
Mainly in the area of child seats - the only ones I know fit are Porsche's own, though I understand the Klippan Futura will also fit.
Additionally if you neeed to take a buggy with you, you may have to choose carefully. Not familiar with the luggage space in the front of an SC, but for my 993 I've only found one to fit (a Quinny Zap, thanks VS). Consequently we now own three buggies.
The child seat problem seems to be consistentt across all porsche's, but no buggy problems with a 944 - tons of space.
Dan
NB my second attempt at posting this.
Is a late 70s/early 80s 911 a realistic daily driver? I'm guessing yes by my standards (Caterham as an only car for 5 years) but perhaps not by other people's reckoning
Trying to decide with what to replace the girlfriend's Mini Cooper (BMW not original) and she seems quite taken with the older 911 idea.
Trying to decide with what to replace the girlfriend's Mini Cooper (BMW not original) and she seems quite taken with the older 911 idea.
Very different cars
I've never had an SC but have had a 964, 944t and 968. The 944/68 felt more 'normal' and driving them certainly felt less of an occasion, though some might feel this makes it a better everyday choice. The 944 was fantastic on boost, but not so good off boost, and it is a bit on/off. Power delivery in the 968 more linear but it really could do with more. You need to drive both - a lot - and then decide. For me it had to be 911s and thats were I am again in a 993
For the money you are looking at you are near the bottom of SC pricing and probably above the middle of 944, and whilst its no guarantee, this might influence the quality of car you get and the associated downstream costs.
Good luck whatever you do
I've never had an SC but have had a 964, 944t and 968. The 944/68 felt more 'normal' and driving them certainly felt less of an occasion, though some might feel this makes it a better everyday choice. The 944 was fantastic on boost, but not so good off boost, and it is a bit on/off. Power delivery in the 968 more linear but it really could do with more. You need to drive both - a lot - and then decide. For me it had to be 911s and thats were I am again in a 993
For the money you are looking at you are near the bottom of SC pricing and probably above the middle of 944, and whilst its no guarantee, this might influence the quality of car you get and the associated downstream costs.
Good luck whatever you do
I would go for the 911, although possibly not that one. You could get a good one for that price though.
I looked at 944s, enjoyed the S2 was fun to drive and felt quick, loads of luggage space. Looked like the rear seats were smaller though. In the end I decided that I had always wanted a 911, so would only end up still hankering after one.
Car seats are a pain, but we discovered that Mercedes sell the same seat as the Porsche prince, but at half the price, and it fits in the early 911s. We have got a cheapy buggy for the 911 and goes under the front a right treat. It looks like maybe the later cars have less space, especially the C4s.
We manage to get the three of us in, a buggy two weekend bags, change bags, food bags and a pile of other crap and go away for the weekend without cluttering up the spare rear seat. The only thing I can't get under the hood is the picnic hamper.
S
I looked at 944s, enjoyed the S2 was fun to drive and felt quick, loads of luggage space. Looked like the rear seats were smaller though. In the end I decided that I had always wanted a 911, so would only end up still hankering after one.
Car seats are a pain, but we discovered that Mercedes sell the same seat as the Porsche prince, but at half the price, and it fits in the early 911s. We have got a cheapy buggy for the 911 and goes under the front a right treat. It looks like maybe the later cars have less space, especially the C4s.
We manage to get the three of us in, a buggy two weekend bags, change bags, food bags and a pile of other crap and go away for the weekend without cluttering up the spare rear seat. The only thing I can't get under the hood is the picnic hamper.
S
Both cars can and do rust - the 911 around the edges of the front and rear wings, base of windscreen (and more) and the 944 on the sills. I know people who use and have used both as everyday cars. I'd have to say that the 944 makes more sense - it's a more "conventional" car than a 911. I used my 3.2 as my everday car last winter and the salt did nasty things to it....
Linen leather and black door cards tells me that the seats have indeed been changed. Perhaps they were pinstripe originally, which can't easily be replaced or retrimmed as original. It's about the right money though.
Can't your budget stretch to a £500 runaround plus the 911?...You can get a lot for £500 nowadays.
Linen leather and black door cards tells me that the seats have indeed been changed. Perhaps they were pinstripe originally, which can't easily be replaced or retrimmed as original. It's about the right money though.
Can't your budget stretch to a £500 runaround plus the 911?...You can get a lot for £500 nowadays.
rubystone said:
Can't your budget stretch to a £500 runaround plus the 911?...You can get a lot for £500 nowadays.
Good idea - I run a £500 Mk2 Golf GTi for daily running around / taking small one to nursery /trips to B&Q / picking up shopping and the 1001 other jobs the boss (Mrs M) expects me to do whilst holding down a full-time job! By my calculations once I've done 100 miles each week in the Golf I've suitably offset the running costs of the 911 to the point where I can get it out of the garage - and that's based just on fuel really, there are other benefits in terms of reduced maitenance, lower mileage on the 911 etc.
It just means that I can't wait for Thursday as that's usually when I've done enough 'Golf penance' to be able to get the 911 out of the garage!
rubystone said:
I used my 3.2 as my everday car last winter and the salt did nasty things to it....
Linen leather and black door cards tells me that the seats have indeed been changed. Perhaps they were pinstripe originally, which can't easily be replaced or retrimmed as original. It's about the right money though.
I know you and I have had this discussion before but I've used a 3.2 through 2 winters and had no problem at all - just cleaned thoroughly and regularly.
Have had an SC for Four years now, use it most days for the 3 Miles to work, and nearly every weekend, the only not use it time, is really, heavy rain for fear of some moron skidding into it, and the very slipperiest weather, for much the same reasons.
Never had a child seat in it, but a wheelchair will fit, just about in the front.
Done the airport run occasionally, and the bills, are generally manageable, just keep on top of the little jobs, should they crop up.
Insurance is limited to 5000 MPY,
ungaraged, but parked off the road RH insurance (back of Classic car)
£203
Not on my home PC right now, so try
Fuchs porsche dealers (Tim)
(Nottimghamshire)
Tuthills (paul)
Near Banbury
Never had a child seat in it, but a wheelchair will fit, just about in the front.
Done the airport run occasionally, and the bills, are generally manageable, just keep on top of the little jobs, should they crop up.
Insurance is limited to 5000 MPY,
ungaraged, but parked off the road RH insurance (back of Classic car)
£203
Not on my home PC right now, so try
Fuchs porsche dealers (Tim)
(Nottimghamshire)
Tuthills (paul)
Near Banbury
lenny007 said:
Secondly, i've been looking at S2 or Turbo SE 944's. Fab cars in their own right and very cheap to get into at the moment....
Which do you think would be more suitable for a 1st time Porsche owner? Late 70's or early 80's 911 or late 80's early 90's 944?
Hi,
If you value driving dynamics, performance, handling and practicality - above charm and image - I would suggest 100% the 944S2 or 951.
911
NEG-
The 911SC is ancient. Has K-Jet CIS and CDI ignition - no electronic control at all (and hence is none to economical either).
No ABS!
No Power Steering (not always a disadvantage)
Interesting at high speed
Try pushing through a corner and lifting off - it's fun!
More costly to maintain
POS+
Looks great. Classic 911 shape. Easy to work on.
Has that unmistakable feel - even when you push the ignition key into the dash.
Sounds great
It's a 911!
944
NEG-
Not a 911. Image a problem for some
Wheezy sound from starter
924 origins
POS+
Turbo and S2 use full Motronic (Bosch electronically controlled ignition and fuel injection)
Turbo uses electronic boost control
A/C on turbo
Great value
Very cheap to maintain and run (if you do it right)
Great performance
Cheap to enhance performance (my last 944 Turbo made 422bhp - see July '04 911PW/GTPP)
Turbo must be most under rated Porsche ever. 0-60 5.7 secs, 161+ mph (250bhp, 258lbft torque) for £5k - £10k (depending on condition and spec)
My favourite - the 944 Turbo. I've had a 911 3.2, 965 Turbo 2, Boxster S, 928GT and driven countless other Porsche models, but the 944 Turbo remains my choice. Amazing value too (at the moment) and an awesome track car too!
Regards,
Andrew
ProMAX Motorsport
Hi Andrew, hows my old employers then?
Was about to pull you up on one or two of your comments,
but suspect you do actually know of what you speak.
Still, no point in creating a new super-breed of Porsche wimps.
You don't need to drive the iconic, Zuffefhausen rocket, at top speed all the time,
nor need the feel to leave the road on bends, whilst pursued by the max-power brigade.
just enjoy, a great piece of engineering/design from the late 70's
Richard (Sanyo)
Was about to pull you up on one or two of your comments,
but suspect you do actually know of what you speak.
Still, no point in creating a new super-breed of Porsche wimps.
You don't need to drive the iconic, Zuffefhausen rocket, at top speed all the time,
nor need the feel to leave the road on bends, whilst pursued by the max-power brigade.
just enjoy, a great piece of engineering/design from the late 70's
Richard (Sanyo)
Thanks everyone for all of your help and ideas.
I'll be honest here, i'd love a 911 but i think at the moment its not the best option - financially nor practically. The SC was a compromise on my behalf anyway as what i'm really after is a mid to late 80's 3.2 Carrera.
It IS my first rung on the Porsche ladder and i guess the best way to get used to the idea of little/no depreciation v's potentially big bills is the 944.
Problem for me is i love both cars!!!!
So then - S2 or Turbo SE?
Oh, and what were the differences between Turbo and SE spec?
I'll be honest here, i'd love a 911 but i think at the moment its not the best option - financially nor practically. The SC was a compromise on my behalf anyway as what i'm really after is a mid to late 80's 3.2 Carrera.
It IS my first rung on the Porsche ladder and i guess the best way to get used to the idea of little/no depreciation v's potentially big bills is the 944.
Problem for me is i love both cars!!!!
So then - S2 or Turbo SE?
Oh, and what were the differences between Turbo and SE spec?
lenny007 said:
So then - S2 or Turbo SE?
Oh, and what were the differences between Turbo and SE spec?
The 944 S2 was introduced for the 1989 model year. Had some minor changes along the way but essentially remained unchanged until it was superceded by the 968 for the 1992 model year. It has the 944 Turbo look and a 3.0 litre engine producing about 211bhp. Most 944S2 models (in good condition will make their quoted power). CAT equipped 944S2 models will respond better to tuning. Most S2 models are not as well equipped as the Turbo.
The 944 Turbo was introduced for the 1986 model year with 220bhp, but more importantly 247lbft torque. Hence, it was a pretty fast car to begin with.
The 944 Turbo SE (or Silver Rose) was a limited edition 1988 (model year) variant with LSD, Gearbox Oil Cooler, K26/8 turbo that made it's maximum boost for longer (.75 bar) and hence achieved 250bhp and 258lbft torque. It had the 928S4 brakes, different anti-roll bars, Koni M030 adjustable suspension and other minor changes. The SE had no sunroof, but like all 944 Turbo models had A/C
For the 1989 model year the standard Turbo (220) was dropped and the SE became the 944 Turbo with Sunroof and all options selectable (as many were for the SE). Hence, there are many varying specification 944 Turbo models. All 1989 model year cars had the M030 adjustable suspension. All 1990 cars (last actual year of production) had the bridge spoiler and CAT (but had Boge/Sachs Suspension - non adjustable). All 250bhp cars have LSD, Big Brakes and similar suspension and damping rates.
My recommendation is a 1990 model with M030, full leather sports seats and the 10 speaker stereo. A late S2 is a good bet too, but will not have the brakes, suspension and sheer grunt of the Turbo. Both are about the same cost to maintain and run - the S2 having it's own issues being a DOHC, but the Turbo using more fuel. Late Turbo's also have bigger wheels (7 or 7,5 x 16 front) and 9 x 16 rear. Most will have 17's now.
If you want my checklist for looking at a potential car - let me know (andrew@promaxmotorsport.com).
Regards,
Andrew
ProMAX Motorsport
>> Edited by sweetea on Thursday 17th November 09:02
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