You know what I hate....
Discussion
al,
you will only get LHD for your money, being as fussy as you are
there is a good market for LHD and they are no problem to own or drive; I have owned and sold many LHD porsches - the price difference is about 20%
don't buy on colour(!)... the excitement will come when you a) listen to that chainsaw flaty six scream; b) learn to love the old interior; it has so much character it's amazing and c) when you drive the thing
911s are a 'common' shape and the 3.2/964 can be traced back to 1964. If you want something weird in the garage, buy a Dutton Phaeton and spray it flip paint purple/green - your heart will be racing but in a 911 it races when the rev counter needle swings around to the red, not when you open the garage door
911s never seem as 'special' as ferraris on the face of it, but they have so much character when you get to know them - like some plain bird who's a nympho in bed compared to the highly strung stunner from Blackpool or Modena who breaks down in tears every five secs and won't put out
you will only get LHD for your money, being as fussy as you are
there is a good market for LHD and they are no problem to own or drive; I have owned and sold many LHD porsches - the price difference is about 20%
don't buy on colour(!)... the excitement will come when you a) listen to that chainsaw flaty six scream; b) learn to love the old interior; it has so much character it's amazing and c) when you drive the thing
911s are a 'common' shape and the 3.2/964 can be traced back to 1964. If you want something weird in the garage, buy a Dutton Phaeton and spray it flip paint purple/green - your heart will be racing but in a 911 it races when the rev counter needle swings around to the red, not when you open the garage door
911s never seem as 'special' as ferraris on the face of it, but they have so much character when you get to know them - like some plain bird who's a nympho in bed compared to the highly strung stunner from Blackpool or Modena who breaks down in tears every five secs and won't put out
softinthehead said:
have to say I agree with Henry almost in entirety. one tiny bugbear though....this is by far the first time he has ranted (very cogently) at length about "buy on condition" and yet we see with monotonous regularity that henry's low mileage cars do attract a higher premium (just like at every other dealer) because, by his own admission, people are prepared to pay more for them. Oh, so mileage is relevant after all
talk about having your cake and eating it.....
c'mon henry, if you truly believe what you are saying, lets see a good condition 964s on the site with 60k on the clock, for the same price as your 100K+ milers, and put in your blurb for the 60k miler "reduced price, probably has excessive engine wear from too many short trips to Tesco".
then you can claim the title "the Pope John Paul of Porsches"
We already do sell 60k ml cars for 100k money if we feel the car`s condition warrants it.
If someone is prepared to pay more for a car I`m not going to be stupid and turn tham away. Even with low mileage cars we do tell people is that mileage isn`t the be all & end all and doesn`t make a car good. So even when we have cars with low k`s we still sing from the same hymn sheet, we don`t change tune for the cars with a little number. You will note we don`t put the mileage of even the low milage ones on the site, and no all our cars aren`t all high numbers.
Currently in no particular order: 63, 64, 31, 39, 44, 52, 60, 52, 68, 63, 105, 73, 73, 91, 76, 67, 68, 60, 44, 43, (in thousands of miles), for the first 20 cars in the yard I`m looking at. And bear in mind we sell quite old cars.
Back to this 85k miles. Think about what you`re saying. "I want 85k miles so I can sell it with under 100k in a year`s time". Hmmm and the person buying off you ? In your world I`ll wager he wants under 85k so he can sell it with..... under 100k on the clock. So you wouldn`t buy your own car off yourself in a year`s time !!
The trick is to not pay the price premium required to buy the speedo everyone wants only to then destroy it by using the car.
People make me giggle when they say I`ve / the last owner only did 2-5k mls in the last few years as if that show`s how the car`s lived it`s life. Or "it`s never been out in the rain" despite only having owned the car for the past 5yrs of a 20yr life as if the car`s never been in the rain all it`s life.
Wake up and look at the cars.
I learnt a valuable lesson from a mad Welshman who used to shout violently at you whilst I was learning to draw fat naked women. Instead of glancing at the model and then studying your drawing study the model and glance at the paper.
Henry.
PS. If any ladies want to pop round of an evening to look at my etchings........
911virgin.com The best place we know of to buy a used Porsche.
(You can`t whack a competitor`s paid ad on one of our postings or people will think we`re RSJ !!).
Happy hunting.
>> Edited by henry-f on Wednesday 30th November 18:49
My tuppence worth................you are expecting too much for your budget,the best driving 964 I ever owned had done 161K miles BUT it had lots lavished on it to keep it tip top mechanical condition, either buy a LHD car or save up another £5K and spend £20K for a low miler if you must, problem then is you have to find that other person out there prepared to pay you a premium price when you come to sell in a year....if it was me I would find the nicest CONDITION car with the best history I could for £13- £15K, if its lovely you should be able to sell it no problem
domster said:
BergS2 got one... less than 12k 964 C4, top end rebuild, needed a bit of paint for cosmetics, but overall an awesome car to drive and still great condition. There is no way that that is a 10k car if you factor the cost in. It was a bargain at 11.5 or whatever he paid, as it was.
cheers dom -
still going strong
and booked in to sort the stone chipped front end next week.... this thread is giving me deja vu...
HOT OFF THE PRESS:
I am no longer the scoundrel in Sliders' eyes ... problem is sorted
Right, ok, I am open to the thought now of maybe 100k or a little over. I am seeing too many very nice looking cars and passing them by because they have 3 digits showing so maybe I should reconsider.
Dom, I bought a yellow Ferrari, because all the other colours were too subtle! I know what you say about the character and beauty on the inside... oh, no, it was sex you were on about wasn't it
but I love my weekend fun car to make a statement.
You know what I would to do. Find a nice 911 in Grand Prix white! Why such an unpopular colour? cos it would take very little to get a nice set of polished rims with red centres and a red Carrera stripe down the side. Hardly what you'd call a mod, but it would make it just that little bit different.
Also, there is a lovely looking '85 Carrera with 101k in Auto Trader, used everyday and looks really clean. Guards red with black Fuchs. Thing is it's an 85 and I wonder if it may feel a little too old against an '88 or an '89.
Can anyone tell me what the differences would be between 85 and 89, apart from the gearbox. Any performance difference?
I am no longer the scoundrel in Sliders' eyes ... problem is sorted
Right, ok, I am open to the thought now of maybe 100k or a little over. I am seeing too many very nice looking cars and passing them by because they have 3 digits showing so maybe I should reconsider.
Dom, I bought a yellow Ferrari, because all the other colours were too subtle! I know what you say about the character and beauty on the inside... oh, no, it was sex you were on about wasn't it
but I love my weekend fun car to make a statement. You know what I would to do. Find a nice 911 in Grand Prix white! Why such an unpopular colour? cos it would take very little to get a nice set of polished rims with red centres and a red Carrera stripe down the side. Hardly what you'd call a mod, but it would make it just that little bit different.
Also, there is a lovely looking '85 Carrera with 101k in Auto Trader, used everyday and looks really clean. Guards red with black Fuchs. Thing is it's an 85 and I wonder if it may feel a little too old against an '88 or an '89.
Can anyone tell me what the differences would be between 85 and 89, apart from the gearbox. Any performance difference?
Just read all the reports on your car Phil.
Does it still have all the bits covered, like DAB and Zenon lights?
Am even warming to the colour, though I thinks those RUFs help! Only two downsides, the cloth seats and no air-con ... but I guess that someone will be along soon to tell me that the aircon nevers works in 911s anyway!
Don't suppose you're coming up North anytime are you? Your reports mentioned central England but i think I saw you say you were now around Kent somewhere?
Also, what is the clutch action like. I know that some of them can be a bit temperamental.
al
Does it still have all the bits covered, like DAB and Zenon lights?
Am even warming to the colour, though I thinks those RUFs help! Only two downsides, the cloth seats and no air-con ... but I guess that someone will be along soon to tell me that the aircon nevers works in 911s anyway!
Don't suppose you're coming up North anytime are you? Your reports mentioned central England but i think I saw you say you were now around Kent somewhere?
Also, what is the clutch action like. I know that some of them can be a bit temperamental.
al
Out of interest, anyone know this car?
[url]www.pistonheads.com/sales/57221.htm[/url]
or this one?
[url]www.pistonheads.com/sales/58135.htm[/url]
>> Edited by burriana on Wednesday 30th November 23:33
[url]www.pistonheads.com/sales/57221.htm[/url]
or this one?
[url]www.pistonheads.com/sales/58135.htm[/url]
>> Edited by burriana on Wednesday 30th November 23:33
Hi Burriana,
Phil Sold the car a few years ago Im the current owner but the articles are useful since they give more background on the car so I put in the link. All the mods are still in place, I still also have a performance chip for the car but dont use it. It doesnt have aircon, too early for it to be common I think but the Zenon lights are still in place. The clutch is fine as far as I can tell and has never been tempremental in any way for me. I didnt like the cloth seats when I bought it but they are in good nick and I think they keep their looks better than leather when they are this old. I actually bought some black leather 996 front seats with a view to fitting them (I got lots of feedback from rennlisters that they could be made to fit by modifying the sliders) but Im now so used to the cloth that I havent bothered (must sell those seats they are cluttering up the garage.)
Dont often get up north Im afraid but will be at the mother in laws in sheffield either this or next weekend, where are you ?
Take my word for it the dark green is just gorgeous and very unusual
Phil Sold the car a few years ago Im the current owner but the articles are useful since they give more background on the car so I put in the link. All the mods are still in place, I still also have a performance chip for the car but dont use it. It doesnt have aircon, too early for it to be common I think but the Zenon lights are still in place. The clutch is fine as far as I can tell and has never been tempremental in any way for me. I didnt like the cloth seats when I bought it but they are in good nick and I think they keep their looks better than leather when they are this old. I actually bought some black leather 996 front seats with a view to fitting them (I got lots of feedback from rennlisters that they could be made to fit by modifying the sliders) but Im now so used to the cloth that I havent bothered (must sell those seats they are cluttering up the garage.)
Dont often get up north Im afraid but will be at the mother in laws in sheffield either this or next weekend, where are you ?
Take my word for it the dark green is just gorgeous and very unusual
I`m still concerned you haven`t grasped the enormity of the task. When you say you`ve seen some nice cars I presume you mean seen (in adverts) some nice cars, rather than seen (in the flesh). Just because a car is used every day doesn`t mean it`s any good.
You are still trying to paint an image of the car you want to go and buy, colour - leather - bodykit - lights - wheels - graphics, etc. Go and spend 3 weekends looking at 15 cars and try to spot the differences between them condition - wise. In fairness it`s not always easy and you will still probably be just looking at the condition of the paintwork but at least you`ll start to see how cars differ.
Similarly just because someone says, "it`s a `91 model car with a proper cylinder head gasket so the only thing that could go wrong is the dual mass flywheel which was changed 15k mls ago (and ? years !)", doesn`t mean that`s the truth. In fact far from it. My advice is buy that car as it looks like a dealer is selling it. Keep a copy of the advert in a very safe place and then make him pay for everything that goes wrong, including the top end overhaul that WILL need doing at some stage in the car`s life. The oil doesn`t leak from the cylinder head to barrel joint, it leaks from the barrel to crank-case joints and the crank-case through bolt seals, (and you change valve guides, timing chains & tensioner ramps, piston rings, etc,etc as a matter of course. But that person is a dealer and has stated quite clearly that nothing will go wrong with the car !
If you are the dealer and are reading this I would strongly advise changing the ad as you`re laying yourself wide open on such an old and complex car !!
Once again - look at the chocolates themselves, not the wrappers.
Henry
You are still trying to paint an image of the car you want to go and buy, colour - leather - bodykit - lights - wheels - graphics, etc. Go and spend 3 weekends looking at 15 cars and try to spot the differences between them condition - wise. In fairness it`s not always easy and you will still probably be just looking at the condition of the paintwork but at least you`ll start to see how cars differ.
Similarly just because someone says, "it`s a `91 model car with a proper cylinder head gasket so the only thing that could go wrong is the dual mass flywheel which was changed 15k mls ago (and ? years !)", doesn`t mean that`s the truth. In fact far from it. My advice is buy that car as it looks like a dealer is selling it. Keep a copy of the advert in a very safe place and then make him pay for everything that goes wrong, including the top end overhaul that WILL need doing at some stage in the car`s life. The oil doesn`t leak from the cylinder head to barrel joint, it leaks from the barrel to crank-case joints and the crank-case through bolt seals, (and you change valve guides, timing chains & tensioner ramps, piston rings, etc,etc as a matter of course. But that person is a dealer and has stated quite clearly that nothing will go wrong with the car !
If you are the dealer and are reading this I would strongly advise changing the ad as you`re laying yourself wide open on such an old and complex car !!
Once again - look at the chocolates themselves, not the wrappers.
Henry
Henry - I am talking in a lot of these cases, purely hypothetically.
I know I am not going to get the car in the exact spec I want, I am (honestly) not that stupid. I am just going to try to get as close a compromise as I can.
As to the car you refer, I am a bit sceptical, that is why I asked if any one knew of the car.
There is another LHD 3.2 Carrera for a fair price, but it has less than 80k miles on it. Should I dismiss it because the mileage might not be correct? It also only has service history from '98 when it was imported into the UK. My first reaction is to not go near it, but it may well be a genuine car, who knows?
I would love to buy one of your cars Henry, you have a 3.2 CC in my favourite colour in stock at the moment, but at £16k+, it is simply too much money for me, which is why I need to buy privately.
Hodges - I am about 30 minutes up to M18 from Sheffield ... depending on which part. Near Goole.
Would certainly be interested in seeing the car especially now I know there may be a set of 993 seats available!
How far would you be from Woodhall Services, just south of J31 on the M1? That is 30 mins run from me and we use that as a regular meeting up point for various runs.
al
I know I am not going to get the car in the exact spec I want, I am (honestly) not that stupid. I am just going to try to get as close a compromise as I can.
As to the car you refer, I am a bit sceptical, that is why I asked if any one knew of the car.
There is another LHD 3.2 Carrera for a fair price, but it has less than 80k miles on it. Should I dismiss it because the mileage might not be correct? It also only has service history from '98 when it was imported into the UK. My first reaction is to not go near it, but it may well be a genuine car, who knows?
I would love to buy one of your cars Henry, you have a 3.2 CC in my favourite colour in stock at the moment, but at £16k+, it is simply too much money for me, which is why I need to buy privately.
Hodges - I am about 30 minutes up to M18 from Sheffield ... depending on which part. Near Goole.
Would certainly be interested in seeing the car especially now I know there may be a set of 993 seats available!
How far would you be from Woodhall Services, just south of J31 on the M1? That is 30 mins run from me and we use that as a regular meeting up point for various runs.
al
You would'nt find me buying a 911 that old privately,i'd rather pay the premium and have peace of mind than trying to save a few quid,which in the long term will probably cost you your shirt.
If ever there was a need for porsche specialists then this is why ,opc dont really concern themselves for this end of the market.
If ever there was a need for porsche specialists then this is why ,opc dont really concern themselves for this end of the market.
henry-f said:
Sounds to me like you can pretty much have whatever number you want on that one then ! ... Imagine it`s done 150k miles and buy it accordingly.
That's what i thought too, which is a real shame if it's a good car, but you never know without a stack of MOTs or verified service book.
You sure you don't want to knock £3k or £4k off that pink one that you have in Henry ... I mean, c'mon, who else are you going to find that wants a PINK PORSCHE? !!!
I don't agree with this buy on condition and not mileage thing Henry.
I bet when you're bidding on cars you use high mileage to your advantage, but it doesn’t matter when your selling, when I enquire about cars the first thing I ask about is the mileage, I' noticed it irks some traders.
Any car with higher miles is going to be harder to sell, it limits your market when you come to sell as some people want lower mileage cars, why not have both low mileage and good condition, ya pays ya money and all that.
>> Edited by bumcrack on Thursday 1st December 22:36
I bet when you're bidding on cars you use high mileage to your advantage, but it doesn’t matter when your selling, when I enquire about cars the first thing I ask about is the mileage, I' noticed it irks some traders.
Any car with higher miles is going to be harder to sell, it limits your market when you come to sell as some people want lower mileage cars, why not have both low mileage and good condition, ya pays ya money and all that.
>> Edited by bumcrack on Thursday 1st December 22:36
oh dear bull/rag/red I fear, Ive actually both bought and sold from/to Henry and his pitch was consistent around milage and condition both times (and somehow I still seemed to pay more than my budget and get less than my minimum, a good salesman he certainly is but good to deals with too)
Hmmm, surely the reason independent traders try and sweep the high mileage under the footmat is because these are the cars that they make a nice living from. Probably because:
1) The OPC network won't touch them and any high mileage p/x stock often gets passed to independents at nice and low prices
2) They are hard to shift privately as people worry about stuff going wrong...
3) ...which narrows the market and makes them cheaper than a crack whore to pick up from people selling them
My guess is that traders don't give you the 'condition not mileage' spiel when you arrive in your interstellar milemuncher and try and sell it to them. It's only the folk who are looking to buy, not sell, who get treated to that.
Then, when traders have get a lovely high miler in (they've sensibly rejected the high mileage dogs, naturally) they do the condition/mileage speech and make a nice quid or two.
Now, before the trade community pop their hernia belts in rage, I should point out that I agree that condition is far more important than mileage, being an enlightened kind of chap, and that car dealers should make a nice turn and put bread on their table.
All I'm saying is that there may be a vested reason for pushing the mantra of condition/mileage for traders. Speaking as a punter to another punter, I'd definitely warn someone that high mile cars can be harder to shift and may lose a lot of value after they hit certain increments (100k for example).
1) The OPC network won't touch them and any high mileage p/x stock often gets passed to independents at nice and low prices
2) They are hard to shift privately as people worry about stuff going wrong...
3) ...which narrows the market and makes them cheaper than a crack whore to pick up from people selling them
My guess is that traders don't give you the 'condition not mileage' spiel when you arrive in your interstellar milemuncher and try and sell it to them. It's only the folk who are looking to buy, not sell, who get treated to that.
Then, when traders have get a lovely high miler in (they've sensibly rejected the high mileage dogs, naturally) they do the condition/mileage speech and make a nice quid or two.
Now, before the trade community pop their hernia belts in rage, I should point out that I agree that condition is far more important than mileage, being an enlightened kind of chap, and that car dealers should make a nice turn and put bread on their table.
All I'm saying is that there may be a vested reason for pushing the mantra of condition/mileage for traders. Speaking as a punter to another punter, I'd definitely warn someone that high mile cars can be harder to shift and may lose a lot of value after they hit certain increments (100k for example).
As has already been said, we sing off the same hymn sheet whether buying or selling. No we don`t pay as much for a 200k car as we do a 10k one but we buy and sell using the same criteria.
In terms of "all our cars are the main dealer`s rejects" - utter rubbish. We don`t sell nearly new cars because they depreciate more than the Russian Ruble. Yes if you just look at the number on the speedo our average is going to be higher than that of Porsche centre Scunthorpe, but do you know why? Because a new car comes with 20 miles on the clock! We sell cars from 4 or 5 years onwards, probably up to 20 or 25 years old. The main dealers stop at 24 months, (alright maybe 36 months !), and yes I`m sure there is the odd older car within the network but we`re looking at the norm, not the exceptions. We`ve sold the odd 12 month old car but it isn`t what we do.
As already stated in this thread : Currently in no particular order: 63, 64, 31, 39, 44, 52, 60, 52, 68, 63, 105, 73, 73, 91, 76, 67, 68, 60, 44, 43, (in thousands of miles), for the first 20 cars in the yard I`m looking at.
So by rights I should be jumping up and down insisting everyone buy sub 80k mile cars, we`ve even got 60k mile 3.2 Carreras in stock at the moment !! But I don`t because that`s not the way to buy old cars.
In terms of us only buying high milage cars off the private bod, (that he`s failed to sell privately), where the hell do you think the above cars came from ? That`s right Jo Public. The fact is that whether your car has done 10k or 210k miles the private buyer is an absolute tosser when buying off his fellow private man. All the decent folk who aren`t looking to get a £10k car for £5k go to a specialist and buy with an element of comfort and in relative safety. You, (the private seller), know you`re a decent person and your car is the best in the world but he doesn`t and so will only buy if it`s a once in a lifetime bargain.
Look back through previous threads when someone`s offered a car for sale. Out come all the offers - "I`ll buy it if you take 30 pence and a bag or crisps", "I`d give you thirty quid for it but can`t pay you for a decade." "I`ll give you ten grand if you give me eleven for my old pile of sh1t that they only made 7 examples of in purple with orange faux fur".
I can change my business model to suit. If I wanted to sell 6 month old cars then I could do it tomorrow, if I wanted to sell all cars under 50k miles, again I could do it tomorrow. But I have a conscience & want to run a business for the long term. A business that doesn`t turn their back on customers once they`ve bought their cars, a business that doesn`t have to tell people the absolute gem they bought 24 months ago is now a worthless pile of poo because the number on the speedo has crept over an arbitory number meaning we can`t sell it on again. We`re not chasing a fast buck or jumping on band wagons we`re telling it the way it is and I`ve been saying it exactly the same for 20 years now !
Genuinely I have no axe to grind, we haven`t got a yard full of 150k mile cars, but if a good one comes along I`ll buy it and then price it accordingly.
Henry
>> Edited by henry-f on Friday 2nd December 12:54
In terms of "all our cars are the main dealer`s rejects" - utter rubbish. We don`t sell nearly new cars because they depreciate more than the Russian Ruble. Yes if you just look at the number on the speedo our average is going to be higher than that of Porsche centre Scunthorpe, but do you know why? Because a new car comes with 20 miles on the clock! We sell cars from 4 or 5 years onwards, probably up to 20 or 25 years old. The main dealers stop at 24 months, (alright maybe 36 months !), and yes I`m sure there is the odd older car within the network but we`re looking at the norm, not the exceptions. We`ve sold the odd 12 month old car but it isn`t what we do.
As already stated in this thread : Currently in no particular order: 63, 64, 31, 39, 44, 52, 60, 52, 68, 63, 105, 73, 73, 91, 76, 67, 68, 60, 44, 43, (in thousands of miles), for the first 20 cars in the yard I`m looking at.
So by rights I should be jumping up and down insisting everyone buy sub 80k mile cars, we`ve even got 60k mile 3.2 Carreras in stock at the moment !! But I don`t because that`s not the way to buy old cars.
In terms of us only buying high milage cars off the private bod, (that he`s failed to sell privately), where the hell do you think the above cars came from ? That`s right Jo Public. The fact is that whether your car has done 10k or 210k miles the private buyer is an absolute tosser when buying off his fellow private man. All the decent folk who aren`t looking to get a £10k car for £5k go to a specialist and buy with an element of comfort and in relative safety. You, (the private seller), know you`re a decent person and your car is the best in the world but he doesn`t and so will only buy if it`s a once in a lifetime bargain.
Look back through previous threads when someone`s offered a car for sale. Out come all the offers - "I`ll buy it if you take 30 pence and a bag or crisps", "I`d give you thirty quid for it but can`t pay you for a decade." "I`ll give you ten grand if you give me eleven for my old pile of sh1t that they only made 7 examples of in purple with orange faux fur".
I can change my business model to suit. If I wanted to sell 6 month old cars then I could do it tomorrow, if I wanted to sell all cars under 50k miles, again I could do it tomorrow. But I have a conscience & want to run a business for the long term. A business that doesn`t turn their back on customers once they`ve bought their cars, a business that doesn`t have to tell people the absolute gem they bought 24 months ago is now a worthless pile of poo because the number on the speedo has crept over an arbitory number meaning we can`t sell it on again. We`re not chasing a fast buck or jumping on band wagons we`re telling it the way it is and I`ve been saying it exactly the same for 20 years now !
Genuinely I have no axe to grind, we haven`t got a yard full of 150k mile cars, but if a good one comes along I`ll buy it and then price it accordingly.
Henry
>> Edited by henry-f on Friday 2nd December 12:54
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