Poor demand for cayman
Discussion
pikey said:
Maybe those extra's only cost HONDA about another £1,000, but they choose to plug them in to push the car as it doesn't have the Porsche pedigree? So does that mean that a fully loaded Cayman *should* be nearer 44k not 50k, but they reckon they can push it? Probably... but then they've been doing that with the 911 for years.
Not sure I agree. The 911 is a supercar priced below other supercars and yet more robust and useable. A Ferrari 360 didn't offer anything dynamically over a GT3 or a TT. A 911 is a bargain.
Even the Boxster makes good sense. I can see where they are going with the Cayman, but only time will tell if they've found a gap in the market. I'm not sure I've seen someone try to charge more for a coupe before, and it remains to be decided whether or not the superior dynamics are sufficient to justify the premium in the eyes of the market.
>> Edited by DanH on Tuesday 6th December 15:57
For 50 grand you can buy yourself a pretty decent 996 and in 6 months time a 997 so why drive around in a "plastic or baby Porsche" when you can have the real thing at a similar price. The Cayman is great news for the residuals of late 996s as is the case with the amv8s for the DB9s. All of a sudden the 997 and the DB9 seem real good value within their respective families. This is excellent marketing.
I really am not convinced in the argument that people with 50K will necessarily prefer to look at a 996 or second hand 997 when prices fall. Most people will aspire to a car, or a few cars, and then if they can aford them will decide on whether they make sense financially, emotionally, as a driving machine etc. I have never had a budget in mind and then thought...emmm, wonder what's the best way to spend the money. When I bought my Boxster I could have had a 996 but the Boxster was the car I fell in love with so I never once thought to wait for a second hand 911 for money reasons.
The clever bit from a marketing POV is that it introduced me to Porsche ownership which would never have happenend previous to the Boxster and that experience was a good one. I have thought about owning a 911 since my Boxster and Boxster S but it just does not do it for me...and yes I have test driven a fair few. The Cayman, on the other hand, is a car that interests me. But, as I said in previous post, not at £50K... in my eyes that is not good value for money.
It's like the new Aston Vantage....I had a deposit down but could not justify the, to me, high price when it finally came out. So I have backed out of that and will see where prices go next year. I buy on emotion but never let it totally rule my wallet!!
It's a personal thing this car buying malarky
The clever bit from a marketing POV is that it introduced me to Porsche ownership which would never have happenend previous to the Boxster and that experience was a good one. I have thought about owning a 911 since my Boxster and Boxster S but it just does not do it for me...and yes I have test driven a fair few. The Cayman, on the other hand, is a car that interests me. But, as I said in previous post, not at £50K... in my eyes that is not good value for money.
It's like the new Aston Vantage....I had a deposit down but could not justify the, to me, high price when it finally came out. So I have backed out of that and will see where prices go next year. I buy on emotion but never let it totally rule my wallet!!
It's a personal thing this car buying malarky
spark_s said:
Priced similar to a boxster I think it would be a big success and still make a good long term profit for porsche.
As it is I don't think anyone would buy a year old cayman against a new boxster so also bearing in mind dealer mark ups sellers of caymans will be in for a nasty shock!
SparkS.... YOu are wrong - I would definately buy a year old Cayman over a Boxster as I do not want a soft top anymore and the Cayman fills all the boxes for me. As I said in earlier post...it's all a very personal thing!
I have a 997S and had the Cayman S been what I hoped it might be I would quite happily have swapped it in. Unfortunately I just see it as a Boxster with a roof and one that doesn't even look any better. Tiff last night said the Boxster handles just as well so what the hell would you want to pay extra for a roof for?
jjr1 said:
I have a 997S and had the Cayman S been what I hoped it might be I would quite happily have swapped it in. Unfortunately I just see it as a Boxster with a roof and one that doesn't even look any better. Tiff last night said the Boxster handles just as well so what the hell would you want to pay extra for a roof for?
I wouldn't...hence why I'll see what it costs next year following a good hit of depreciation! Re the roof....I prefer a stiffy!!!
The earlier comment about value is spot on...a car is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
Porsche is not running a popularity contest. They are in business to make money and they're very good at it.
The UK allocation of Caymans is roughly 1,500 units in the first year. I doubt they'll have trouble selling that many.
I also think that a high percentage of buyers will be financing their purchase. In which case the purchase price is not really the issue.
I know one buyer (it'll be his first Porsche) paying £475 a month with a £10K deposit. There are a lot of people around the UK with that kind of money.
The assumption is 15% per annum depreciation which I think is reasonable given the modest number of cars in the market.
Buyers going crazy on the option list will not get their money back...no surprises there then.
Porsche is not running a popularity contest. They are in business to make money and they're very good at it.
The UK allocation of Caymans is roughly 1,500 units in the first year. I doubt they'll have trouble selling that many.
I also think that a high percentage of buyers will be financing their purchase. In which case the purchase price is not really the issue.
I know one buyer (it'll be his first Porsche) paying £475 a month with a £10K deposit. There are a lot of people around the UK with that kind of money.
The assumption is 15% per annum depreciation which I think is reasonable given the modest number of cars in the market.
Buyers going crazy on the option list will not get their money back...no surprises there then.
Pikey
Even if you look at our small gathering in this thread you will find out of 20 odd people you have maybe 2 that seem to think the cayman was worth the bother.
Not because its a bad car or a bad idea,but because most people who might buy this car are'nt stupid,they know the car is really overpriced.
This car imo will be a good buy in a years time when it will be up at 35k with plenty of options.
You say the marketing men have got it right,i dont agree,time will tell.
Even if you look at our small gathering in this thread you will find out of 20 odd people you have maybe 2 that seem to think the cayman was worth the bother.
Not because its a bad car or a bad idea,but because most people who might buy this car are'nt stupid,they know the car is really overpriced.
This car imo will be a good buy in a years time when it will be up at 35k with plenty of options.
You say the marketing men have got it right,i dont agree,time will tell.
S1XXR said:
The earlier comment about value is spot on...a car is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
Porsche is not running a popularity contest. They are in business to make money and they're very good at it.
The UK allocation of Caymans is roughly 1,500 units in the first year. I doubt they'll have trouble selling that many.
I also think that a high percentage of buyers will be financing their purchase. In which case the purchase price is not really the issue.
I know one buyer (it'll be his first Porsche) paying £475 a month with a £10K deposit. There are a lot of people around the UK with that kind of money.
The assumption is 15% per annum depreciation which I think is reasonable given the modest number of cars in the market.
Buyers going crazy on the option list will not get their money back...no surprises there then.
S1XXR has hit the nail on the head.
Given that MOST Porsches are financed £40K or £50K purchase price will make very little difference... balloon up (say 60%) and that means an extra £111 per month + interest... no big deal at all.
A couple of other things. We are enthusiasts who want the best car for US - as opposed to the very LATEST car. Most porsche buyers are not like us which is why I think the cayman will KILL off 996 residuals bar the specials like Turbo/GT3 etc as people rush to buy the "new Porsche." As opposed to OLDER C4S etc...
Another thing, a properly specced 997 is closer to £70K than £60K so even at £50K this makes it a good in between model.
Porsche were hoping to re-write the rule book when they priced the Boxster Coupe at £5k more than the established cabriolet.
The Boxster Cabriolet is the most wonderfully compliant and efficient vehicle for both open topped cruising in good weather, and slime scratching in bad weather.
My view is that the Boxster Coupe (Cayman)is --- stuck between two markets.
If you want bomb proof taut performance and you have £50k + to spend, why wouldn't you go straight for an early GT3 Mk II --- or by degree something less extreme but significantly more appealing than a Caymen --- 996 to 997 shaped ?
I do like the Caymen, but where would my 50k go ? Not into a Caymen !
The next Porsche move to regain the high ground should be a stripped out Caymen RS with GT3 engine at £55 to 58k new.
Now that would have mid engined USP and go like stink --- and re-ignite the enthusiast market as the 968CS did at £30k all those years ago.
Caymen as it stands is, in my view, a rather greedy mistake from which Porshe will need to step back and take a good hard look at their market.
The Boxster Cabriolet is the most wonderfully compliant and efficient vehicle for both open topped cruising in good weather, and slime scratching in bad weather.
My view is that the Boxster Coupe (Cayman)is --- stuck between two markets.
If you want bomb proof taut performance and you have £50k + to spend, why wouldn't you go straight for an early GT3 Mk II --- or by degree something less extreme but significantly more appealing than a Caymen --- 996 to 997 shaped ?
I do like the Caymen, but where would my 50k go ? Not into a Caymen !
The next Porsche move to regain the high ground should be a stripped out Caymen RS with GT3 engine at £55 to 58k new.
Now that would have mid engined USP and go like stink --- and re-ignite the enthusiast market as the 968CS did at £30k all those years ago.
Caymen as it stands is, in my view, a rather greedy mistake from which Porshe will need to step back and take a good hard look at their market.
One thing that does amaze me (or mabe it shouldn't!!) was that when all the press were going on about the AMV8 a year ago they were talking £65K and it turned out to be £80K - 23% more. When Autocar talked about the Cayman they said £29K (IIRC) and it ends up at £43K - 48% more!!!!. Are they crap guesses or are Porsche trying to pull a fast one?
rob05 said:
Pikey
Even if you look at our small gathering in this thread you will find out of 20 odd people you have maybe 2 that seem to think the cayman was worth the bother.
Not because its a bad car or a bad idea,but because most people who might buy this car are'nt stupid,they know the car is really overpriced.
This car imo will be a good buy in a years time when it will be up at 35k with plenty of options.
You say the marketing men have got it right,i dont agree,time will tell.
See your point Rob and you may well be right, but yes, time will tell
However, I have researched the model thoroughly and had 2 test drives. It is a *great* car. Using the same ratio, I wonder how many of the 18 have done the same.
Not disrespecting any of those 18's opinions, its just that seeing and driving the car, its absolutely fan-bloody-tastic! Yes the marketing is good, but that shouldn't necessarily take away the fact of how good the car is. I think its better than people think.
You're definitely right about how it'll be interesting to see what will happen though.
I sold my 996 because it’s basically got the same 3.4 engine as in the Cayman, but with worse handling. 911 values will be affected, it's not as if they aren't loosing enough every month as it is with 996's anyway, without a better handling latest model coming along to boot.
The engine in the Cayman is better imo(than the 3.4 911); it has better low end torque, thanks to the Vario system found on the 3.6 911’s and it sounds gruffer. The extra dosh for the Cayman engine is worth the cost over the Boxster imo, the Boxster unit feels flat by comparison. The increase over the Boxster feels a lot more than the figures suggest on paper.
You could have lots of cars instead of the Cayman for 48k, but most people don’t want a second hand GT3, I know some poster find this hard to believe, but it’s to hardcore for most people to use every day. I’m certain the Cayman will sell more in a month than the number of GT3’s that change hands in a whole year and you’re still looking at 58K+ for a 997 so that rules that out. So that leaves 996’s, which is the old shape car and every thing else that goes with a second hand discontinued model.
PS.
The issue I have with the 5th gear review is, how can tiff tell if the Cayman is or isn't a better drive on greasy roads, surly you need to drive the car on a dry road to be able to feel any dynamic difference., it’s not like you can push and find the extra dynamic edge over the Boxster that Evo magazine talks about it this month issue.
Maybe poster should actually drive the car
>> Edited by bumcrack on Tuesday 6th December 23:21
>> Edited by bumcrack on Wednesday 7th December 07:12
The engine in the Cayman is better imo(than the 3.4 911); it has better low end torque, thanks to the Vario system found on the 3.6 911’s and it sounds gruffer. The extra dosh for the Cayman engine is worth the cost over the Boxster imo, the Boxster unit feels flat by comparison. The increase over the Boxster feels a lot more than the figures suggest on paper.
You could have lots of cars instead of the Cayman for 48k, but most people don’t want a second hand GT3, I know some poster find this hard to believe, but it’s to hardcore for most people to use every day. I’m certain the Cayman will sell more in a month than the number of GT3’s that change hands in a whole year and you’re still looking at 58K+ for a 997 so that rules that out. So that leaves 996’s, which is the old shape car and every thing else that goes with a second hand discontinued model.
PS.
The issue I have with the 5th gear review is, how can tiff tell if the Cayman is or isn't a better drive on greasy roads, surly you need to drive the car on a dry road to be able to feel any dynamic difference., it’s not like you can push and find the extra dynamic edge over the Boxster that Evo magazine talks about it this month issue.
Maybe poster should actually drive the car
>> Edited by bumcrack on Tuesday 6th December 23:21
>> Edited by bumcrack on Wednesday 7th December 07:12
think everybody has covered the important bits compared to the 911 and Boxster.The Cayman S will be rarer than either.Sharper than the Boxster,nearly as fast as a 997 3.6 in the hands of a common driver,and with the option of an aftermarket LSD and engine tuning,might get us a dream Porsche for a fair bit less than a 997 with a similar spec.Try your hands at the Porsche Configurator and you will know what I mean when speccing them up. As a 986 S owner,I have faith like most of you that the Cayman S truly justifies its price rise over the new Boxster S,despite being a fixed hear. Just remember the increse in torsional stiffness!Will be interesting to see how the new standard Cayman fairs up when its launched next year!
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