Tiptronic Turbo
Discussion
One of the 996 turbos I'm considering at the moment is a tiptronic which I (in my ignorance) consider as a demerit.
However, it has every box ticked on the options list and looks superb in every other respect.
So I've got two reasons I don't want an automatic, first of all I don't want something kicking down, changing gear when I don't want it to for example mid corner. The other problem is I'm expecting trouble selling it when I'm done because nobody else will want one either. I'll have the porsche warranty so reliability won't be too much of an issue (should it be?)
Question is, am I right? What's the general consensus about tiptronics? I'm told they're extrordinarily good for autos but they're still an auto, right? I guess they weigh more and sap power through the torque converter.
Please give me the benifit of your opinions and experiences
Regards
Andy
However, it has every box ticked on the options list and looks superb in every other respect.
So I've got two reasons I don't want an automatic, first of all I don't want something kicking down, changing gear when I don't want it to for example mid corner. The other problem is I'm expecting trouble selling it when I'm done because nobody else will want one either. I'll have the porsche warranty so reliability won't be too much of an issue (should it be?)
Question is, am I right? What's the general consensus about tiptronics? I'm told they're extrordinarily good for autos but they're still an auto, right? I guess they weigh more and sap power through the torque converter.
Please give me the benifit of your opinions and experiences
Regards
Andy
Its not a 996, but I have tip on my Audi A8.
I think it's more than an auto, you genuinely get the best of both worlds. I don't have paddles, its a lever only in the A8, but if you push it over into tip mode then you have a lot of control over the box. It does pretty much what you tell it, and will only override your inputs (or lack of them) when its necessary. The only time it will change up midcorner in tip mode is if you bounce off the limiter. I guess this might be a problem if you like to corner in full Needell mode. It will change down if you slow down in tip and forget to downshift yourself. Other than that the box stays where you put it.
I think it's more than an auto, you genuinely get the best of both worlds. I don't have paddles, its a lever only in the A8, but if you push it over into tip mode then you have a lot of control over the box. It does pretty much what you tell it, and will only override your inputs (or lack of them) when its necessary. The only time it will change up midcorner in tip mode is if you bounce off the limiter. I guess this might be a problem if you like to corner in full Needell mode. It will change down if you slow down in tip and forget to downshift yourself. Other than that the box stays where you put it.
supermono said:
I guess they weigh more and sap power through the torque converter.
yes and yes - I have driven a TT with and without and absolutely hated the tip. I find it clunky and slow in the manual mode and unpredictable and slow to kick down in the auto mode. Just does not seem right in a focused sports car.
There is no substitute for stirring the cogs yourself and the satisfaction that brings.
That said it seems 50% of TT are tips (I get the impression lots of wealthy older drivers buy them for the cachet rather than for the performance / driving experience) so presumably it will be just as easy for you to sell on.
Maybe some also use their TT as a daily London commute which defeats the object of the car for me but would explain speccing the slush box.
I stress this is only my very personal opinion (flame suit on and stands by for roasting from outraged tip owners)
edited to say, an A8 driver recommending the tip says it all really , fantastic device in a limo, if you drive your TT as a limo then go for it
>> Edited by Adam B on Monday 12th December 19:06
Sometimes it comes down to spec. If you find the perfect spec. for you, and the perfect colour, but, its a Tip, then that's a tricky one.
I haven't driven a TT Tip, but the kick-down must be pretty awesome
However, I have a 996 C4 Tip, and I have to come clean and say, don't do it. It just doesn't suit the character of the car. In 'manual' mode its not too bad, but auto is really awful, the worst auto I've driven. Porsche should have developed a decent dual clutch system years ago, instead it graced us with the beauty of the Cayenne
I haven't driven a TT Tip, but the kick-down must be pretty awesome
However, I have a 996 C4 Tip, and I have to come clean and say, don't do it. It just doesn't suit the character of the car. In 'manual' mode its not too bad, but auto is really awful, the worst auto I've driven. Porsche should have developed a decent dual clutch system years ago, instead it graced us with the beauty of the Cayenne
800 said:
However, I have a 996 C4 Tip, and I have to come clean and say, don't do it. It just doesn't suit the character of the car.
respect due, sir
los angeles said:
I have a feeling the macho among Porsche brethern think an auto-anything limp-wristed. Buy whatever makes you feel comfortable and to hell with public opinion.
not being macho, and a tip TT is certainly not limp (or slow), just found the tip unpleasant to drive personally. Public opinion seems to suggest 50% like and 50% don't so why worry about resale? Worry a great deal about buying without trying as the box is fundamental to the car and you enjoymnet of it which ever you prefer
I also came from a SMG M3 but remember the SMG is classed as a manual and it does feel more manual than a tip. I have a 996TT manual and my friend has a tip, don't get me wrong the tip is still very quick and lovely to cruise around in but i'm so glad that I chose the manual over the tip. Best thig to do is go down to a Porsche centre and try both, I had the same dilema as you and found a tip with every box ticked but felt the tip let a TT down a touch. My mate loves his tip but says my manual is more fun and gives you a bigger kick in the a*se. This is all my own opinion but i'm sure whatever one you get you'll be chuffed.
Have had 3 tip porsches, non of which were 996's, and I really enjoyed driving each of them, certainly not a clunk in sight (Hearing?). The semi auto is great fun to play with and fully auto in traffic is a real boon. I certainly never missed having a clutch. I would have thought the TT had more than enough power for most purposes with or without a Tip gear box (or even pulling a caravan I would think)
Adam B said:Cheap shot Adam! I'm actually a TVR driver who also has an A8, and the A8 puts up a good show for a "limo". ESP and ABS are great things for limos too.
edited to say, an A8 driver recommending the tip says it all really, fantastic device in a limo, if you drive your TT as a limo then go for it
Still, you do have a point, only Porsche drivers can sensibly give an opinion. I drove a 996 on a Supercar Experience and honestly found the Porsche manual box the worst I'd used for a long time.
Maybe Porsches implementation of Tip is at fault rather than the concept. The A8 is routinely chipped in the states to get the European Tip programming, which transforms the car. Seems is quite easy to get it wrong.
victormeldrew said:
Cheap shot Adam! I'm actually a TVR driver who also has an A8, and the A8 puts up a good show for a "limo". ESP and ABS are great things for limos too.
not at all sir, you have misunderstood completely (or I have explained badly) - I am a big Audi fan and the A8 is a great car (I would choose over a 7 or S class if I needed that size car) and like all cars of that ilk they suit an auto of some sort. Would you spec an auto box for your TVR? Quite!
I have a 996 TT in Tip and loved it when it was my only car, but now I have little diesel for around town I regret that my porker is Tip and my city car a manual.
However I feel taken in isolation Tiptronics are excellent of their type. It’s the same box as the Mercedes SL AMG so it’s good for 500Bhp. On the power loss front I had a rolling road done at G-Force and mine was 422 Bhp with Optimax fuel, 404 Bhp because of the tiptronic, so I was loosing about 20 bhp as a consequence of the Auto Box, a manual would still loose you some power however since manuals are not zero friction devices either !
They don’t kick down in mid corner they have sensors to prevent. The kick down is fine and you learn the change points as the car learns your driving style over very short time frames – so as soon as you put the boot in it is changing later holding gear etc. Get a late 2001 car and the tip button works even when Gear is in “D” and holds it for 8 seconds before reverting – this is a great feature for preparing to overtake without having to take hand off the wheel or touch the gear stick. For me it’s also important (because I bought second hand) that a tip car will not have been knackered by boy racers, also a tip gives another item of control to the PCM and this allows it , throttle, Traction split via 4x4, the brakes – and gear.
All in all I think 996 TT’s is very well judged system and still allows you to access what the car has to offer + is convenient.
However I feel taken in isolation Tiptronics are excellent of their type. It’s the same box as the Mercedes SL AMG so it’s good for 500Bhp. On the power loss front I had a rolling road done at G-Force and mine was 422 Bhp with Optimax fuel, 404 Bhp because of the tiptronic, so I was loosing about 20 bhp as a consequence of the Auto Box, a manual would still loose you some power however since manuals are not zero friction devices either !
They don’t kick down in mid corner they have sensors to prevent. The kick down is fine and you learn the change points as the car learns your driving style over very short time frames – so as soon as you put the boot in it is changing later holding gear etc. Get a late 2001 car and the tip button works even when Gear is in “D” and holds it for 8 seconds before reverting – this is a great feature for preparing to overtake without having to take hand off the wheel or touch the gear stick. For me it’s also important (because I bought second hand) that a tip car will not have been knackered by boy racers, also a tip gives another item of control to the PCM and this allows it , throttle, Traction split via 4x4, the brakes – and gear.
All in all I think 996 TT’s is very well judged system and still allows you to access what the car has to offer + is convenient.
Adam B said:But the TVR doesn't need to shift mid corner in the first place, so thats not really relevant is it?
Cheap shot Adam! I'm actually a TVR driver who also has an A8, and the A8 puts up a good show for a "limo". ESP and ABS are great things for limos too.
not at all sir, you have misunderstood completely (or I have explained badly) - I am a big Audi fan and the A8 is a great car (I would choose over a 7 or S class if I needed that size car) and like all cars of that ilk they suit an auto of some sort. Would you spec an auto box for your TVR? Quite!
I am with 800 on this issue. I have a 996 tip and I find it cumbersome. When ordering the car I had no choice as I am tall and I cannot fit my left (clutch) leg without squeezing it in between the steering wheel and the central console in a manual car. I think the tipS is slow, always in the wrong gear and changes up to 5th too fast. I have driven a number of 996tts and the Tip works a bit better in the tt as there is more torque to pull it out even at a lower gear but you could argue that there is a double lack - first the gear- and then the turbo lag. I also drive a DB9 and I must say that the ZF gearbox in that car is stunning compared to everything else I have tried. It shifts effortless, is never wrongfooted and in harmony with the torque of the V12. The shifts between the gears is seamless - you only see it has shifted when you see the number changing in the display. It also has a double gear downshift action which leaves everything behind you standing still.
I changed from a manual M3 to a 996 tip, both my wife and myself were fed up of the hassle of city driving with six gears and a reasonably heavy clutch.
I have now bought a 997 tip and I dont think the box changes the driving experience at all, especially with sports chrono package where you are absolutely in control of the transmission when you want to be and the changes are so quick and slick. I have never had any noises or clunks as mentioned before (on 996 or 997) and always found the box to be doing exactly what I want it to do?
I would only go back to manual if I did no city driving at all or I wanted to do track days, otherwise it will always be tip for me.
I have now bought a 997 tip and I dont think the box changes the driving experience at all, especially with sports chrono package where you are absolutely in control of the transmission when you want to be and the changes are so quick and slick. I have never had any noises or clunks as mentioned before (on 996 or 997) and always found the box to be doing exactly what I want it to do?
I would only go back to manual if I did no city driving at all or I wanted to do track days, otherwise it will always be tip for me.
Well there seems to be a fairly mixed set of opinions and it's a really useful thread for me thanks. I 'phoned the chap up yesterday to say I'm not interested since the critical words of experience here really seem to chime with me, making it sound like something I'd probably rather not have.
But he was very insistent -- obviously he was he wants the sale -- and is "forcing" me to go round and drive the thing, so that's what I'm going to do next week.
My overriding reservation with the box is that the reason I'm buying a turbo is for the ultimate rush of all that torque, and to squander some through the gearbox seems plain daft. The trackday thing is a good point too, surely it would be criminal not to take this baby on a racetrack?
Andy
But he was very insistent -- obviously he was he wants the sale -- and is "forcing" me to go round and drive the thing, so that's what I'm going to do next week.
My overriding reservation with the box is that the reason I'm buying a turbo is for the ultimate rush of all that torque, and to squander some through the gearbox seems plain daft. The trackday thing is a good point too, surely it would be criminal not to take this baby on a racetrack?
Andy
Not directly related to 996 TT's, but a few words in defence of the much maligned Tip'...
I tried several manuals before I chose the Tiptronic, though Tiptronic wasn't the overiding factor I certainly do not regret my choice and at no stage have I wished I bought a manual,
In town it's a doddle, no faffing around with gear sticks and clutches.
Get out and about for some fun driving and select manual, it's brilliant. The changes are almost instantaneous. Both hands on the wheel and concentrate on steering a flick (or 2) of a finger and I can drop 2 gears as quickly as a manual shift.
Even in auto mode I think the changes are pretty quick, much better than BMW's SMG and leagues ahead of many other auto's.
For those that say it's "clunky" - not so IMO. Power sapping? - not significantly. Detrimental to fuel economy? - Nothing worth crying about.
There will be those who like to quote 0-60 figures; I'll leave that to the hairy chested boys who like to see who can pee furthest, highest etc
Put a manual and tiptronic side by side for a 0-60 sprint and I wouldn't mind betting there would be little in it....unless of course the manual driver has a very good technique for standing starts and is not too worried about cooking his clutch!
Tiptronic - simply bury the throttle pedal and let the electronic wizardry take care of it all - and I won't get any funny smells from my car!
On a journey from A to B you'd be there just as quick as a manual - maybe sooner on a "twisty" trip!
Another point worthy of note with the Tiptronic; I think the car has some sensors for measuring cornering force, the box won't change up part the way through the corner and unsettle the car, unlike some other auto boxes fitted to performance cars.
Together with a handful of (non-accesable) programmes that adapt the changes to suit your current driving style, the tiptronic is not just any old slush box - it's a very clever and useful box of tricks.
It's a shame that more people don't take the time to fully explore its capabilities before writing the Tip' off as just another power and performance sapping auto box.
Right, I'll sit back and and let all the "hairy chests" pick my post apart....in a fit of pique no doubt
Unless of course, you subscribe to the notion that such devices are primarily intended for, well...those of a less masculine disposition?
In which case, as a girl, that's fine - I've made the right choice
Jackie x
I tried several manuals before I chose the Tiptronic, though Tiptronic wasn't the overiding factor I certainly do not regret my choice and at no stage have I wished I bought a manual,
In town it's a doddle, no faffing around with gear sticks and clutches.
Get out and about for some fun driving and select manual, it's brilliant. The changes are almost instantaneous. Both hands on the wheel and concentrate on steering a flick (or 2) of a finger and I can drop 2 gears as quickly as a manual shift.
Even in auto mode I think the changes are pretty quick, much better than BMW's SMG and leagues ahead of many other auto's.
For those that say it's "clunky" - not so IMO. Power sapping? - not significantly. Detrimental to fuel economy? - Nothing worth crying about.
There will be those who like to quote 0-60 figures; I'll leave that to the hairy chested boys who like to see who can pee furthest, highest etc
Put a manual and tiptronic side by side for a 0-60 sprint and I wouldn't mind betting there would be little in it....unless of course the manual driver has a very good technique for standing starts and is not too worried about cooking his clutch!
Tiptronic - simply bury the throttle pedal and let the electronic wizardry take care of it all - and I won't get any funny smells from my car!
On a journey from A to B you'd be there just as quick as a manual - maybe sooner on a "twisty" trip!
Another point worthy of note with the Tiptronic; I think the car has some sensors for measuring cornering force, the box won't change up part the way through the corner and unsettle the car, unlike some other auto boxes fitted to performance cars.
Together with a handful of (non-accesable) programmes that adapt the changes to suit your current driving style, the tiptronic is not just any old slush box - it's a very clever and useful box of tricks.
It's a shame that more people don't take the time to fully explore its capabilities before writing the Tip' off as just another power and performance sapping auto box.
Right, I'll sit back and and let all the "hairy chests" pick my post apart....in a fit of pique no doubt
Unless of course, you subscribe to the notion that such devices are primarily intended for, well...those of a less masculine disposition?
In which case, as a girl, that's fine - I've made the right choice
Jackie x
jac-in-a-box said:
Not directly related to 996 TT's, but a few words in defence of the much maligned Tip'...
I tried several manuals before I chose the Tiptronic, though Tiptronic wasn't the overiding factor I certainly do not regret my choice and at no stage have I wished I bought a manual,
In town it's a doddle, no faffing around with gear sticks and clutches.
Get out and about for some fun driving and select manual, it's brilliant. The changes are almost instantaneous. Both hands on the wheel and concentrate on steering a flick (or 2) of a finger and I can drop 2 gears as quickly as a manual shift.
Even in auto mode I think the changes are pretty quick, much better than BMW's SMG and leagues ahead of many other auto's.
For those that say it's "clunky" - not so IMO. Power sapping? - not significantly. Detrimental to fuel economy? - Nothing worth crying about.
There will be those who like to quote 0-60 figures; I'll leave that to the hairy chested boys who like to see who can pee furthest, highest etc
Put a manual and tiptronic side by side for a 0-60 sprint and I wouldn't mind betting there would be little in it....unless of course the manual driver has a very good technique for standing starts and is not too worried about cooking his clutch!
Tiptronic - simply bury the throttle pedal and let the electronic wizardry take care of it all - and I won't get any funny smells from my car!
On a journey from A to B you'd be there just as quick as a manual - maybe sooner on a "twisty" trip!
Another point worthy of note with the Tiptronic; I think the car has some sensors for measuring cornering force, the box won't change up part the way through the corner and unsettle the car, unlike some other auto boxes fitted to performance cars.
Together with a handful of (non-accesable) programmes that adapt the changes to suit your current driving style, the tiptronic is not just any old slush box - it's a very clever and useful box of tricks.
It's a shame that more people don't take the time to fully explore its capabilities before writing the Tip' off as just another power and performance sapping auto box.
Right, I'll sit back and and let all the "hairy chests" pick my post apart....in a fit of pique no doubt
Unless of course, you subscribe to the notion that such devices are primarily intended for, well...those of a less masculine disposition?
In which case, as a girl, that's fine - I've made the right choice
Jackie x
Totally agree Jackie.
Supermono - I am please you will give your 996 Tip a try – I think you will be very surprised, so long as the garage lets you push on a bit.
I have taken my 996TT on the track many times and it has been fast as hell and quicker than a well driven manual 360 at Brands Hatch (Indy circuit which is quite tight) also on several drives around the ‘ring it is superb, holding gear, just begging for more, and more and more. The car itself is astonishing and that alone will always put a smile on your face. Learning to use a Tip is like learning to use a manual. Many people treat Tips as something to be lazy with because perception is that is what they are devised for, however invest in understanding the Tip and it’s mind and you do get payback.
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