CARRERA GT FOR SALE !!
Discussion
slim_boy_fat said:
Saw the Romans car today (it sits next to 2 Enzos, red and black - quite a sight). It has a speedo in kph only, which I assume means it's a euro-spec car (I am assuming that UK cars had proper mph speedos).
Was there ever such a thing as a UK spec CGT?
Yes - 40 or 50 I think were officially sold in the UK by Porsche GB. Although all were lhd, I would assume they have some change in spec from the Euro cars to cater for the UK market, such as the lights being for rhd. They also definitely came with mph speedos, like the USA cars.
The gt on ebay uk has been with drawn, and a warning sent out by ebay!
I thought cars international was the same as Romans international.Clearly not!
Cars international has the ex usa car for 225 +vat, will be converted to uk/euro spec on sale.
The uk and usa cars i believe should be in mph,euro cars are kph.The usa cars need to change the rear lights as well.
Dont know yet if this is correct or not,that the usa cars are supposed to be slightly lower compression to meet the us emissions regs.Does not sound correct to me, I am sure Porsche reading can confirm this.
I thought cars international was the same as Romans international.Clearly not!
Cars international has the ex usa car for 225 +vat, will be converted to uk/euro spec on sale.
The uk and usa cars i believe should be in mph,euro cars are kph.The usa cars need to change the rear lights as well.
Dont know yet if this is correct or not,that the usa cars are supposed to be slightly lower compression to meet the us emissions regs.Does not sound correct to me, I am sure Porsche reading can confirm this.
There were thirteen minor differences between US cars and European cars (in US, indicator lights may not be yellow, car must have two clear reversing lights whilst rear foglight not required, different radio frequency for remote locking, driver's wing mirror lens must be flat rather than aspherical, that sort of thing). According to factory, no differences between US and Euro engines or emissions systems. US uses OBD2, while Brussels Louts use EOBD, but car seems to qualify under both.
As GuyR suggests, differences between UK and Euro cars were limited to orientation of headlights and foglight/reversing light, and MPH/KPH. Assuming that you elect to centre your headlights rather than orientating them to the opposite side (latter requires new lights, around £3M, IIRC), the change costs maybe two grand, almost all of which is labour required to get at foglight/reversing light in order to swap them.
As GuyR suggests, differences between UK and Euro cars were limited to orientation of headlights and foglight/reversing light, and MPH/KPH. Assuming that you elect to centre your headlights rather than orientating them to the opposite side (latter requires new lights, around £3M, IIRC), the change costs maybe two grand, almost all of which is labour required to get at foglight/reversing light in order to swap them.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
If they ever were XJ220 money (£95ish?), I think you'd find yourself in a very long queue, my friend. People can like or dislike the XJ220, but it is not even remotely as capable as the CGT. In theory anything can happen, but if CGTs were XJ220 money, the car market would be so depressed that XJ220s would be Boxster money.
Fair comment that if used Carrera GTs were running at £95k, XJ220s would be running at a fraction of that amount.
Although Let's not forget that you can currently buy a 959 for <£100k (a few have been advertised on PH over the last 18 months). Granted this price is 15 years after they were built but I think the production run was about a quarter of the proposed Carrera GT run. Having said that the 959 loses out by looking too much like a 911, where as the Carrera GT may carry a premium into the future for not looking similar to the mass produced 911.
DAZ
>> Edited by dazren on Friday 30th December 14:29
Although Let's not forget that you can currently buy a 959 for <£100k (a few have been advertised on PH over the last 18 months). Granted this price is 15 years after they were built but I think the production run was about a quarter of the proposed Carrera GT run. Having said that the 959 loses out by looking too much like a 911, where as the Carrera GT may carry a premium into the future for not looking similar to the mass produced 911.
DAZ
>> Edited by dazren on Friday 30th December 14:29
dazren said:The 959 prices are somewhat bemusing, at least to me.
Although Let's not forget that you can currently buy a 959 for <£100k (a few have been advertised on PH over the last 18 months). Granted this price is 15 years after they were built but I think the production run was about a quarter of the proposed Carrera GT run. Having said that the 959 loses out by looking too much like a 911, where as the Carrera GT may carry a premium into the future for not looking similar to the mass produced 911.
As you say, daz, the car looks much like a 911 from the front, and the interior is near identical as well. The car featured several areas of ground-breaking technology, but, like so much else, yesterday's cutting edge of technology is today's computer big enough to fill a room.
The 959 is the most beautiful P. for several decades, but that only comes through in the flesh. The car really is an Autobahn-cruising GT, at least in Comfort form, which was 90% of the build run. Even the Sports are heavier than one wishes, and with their high-profile tyres they have a surprisingly compliant ride. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not why we buy Porsches. So the car suffers from lack of focused purpose.
Then there is the Ferrari-illusion factor; that is, that the car is not Italian. I say, "Thank God for that", but the market disagrees. The 959's engine, which it has in common with the 956/962, is one of the all-time great racing engines. If it were a Ferrari engine with that provenance (such as the 3-litre V12s), it would be treated like an icon deserving of servile reverence from bended knee. Because it's German, however, it's thought of as just another boxer 6.
It is also a factor, I daresay, that at present the 959 is between stools age-wise. Like the 288GTO, F40, EB110, and F1, the 959's too new to be a classic, but no longer new enough to be new. As I've said on here before, the 993 Turbo S does almost everything that the 959 will do, and better.
The car's build quality is superb, but if the market valued build quality, Ferraris would trade at a fraction of the current value.
johnnywishbone said:
the problem is they have made to many 1500 !! should have been 150 !!
and at the moment i think they are to much money , i want to pay £200,000 ish !
You want to pay £200,000ish. I can sympathise with that - I want a twelve-inch...er, let's just say that you can't always have what you want.
The build run stopped at 1250. So many people have said that the total run should have stopped at 150, or 250 or whatever. Small problem with that wishful thinking - if Porsche had spent the same effort on development but built 80% fewer cars, each car would have cost 3 times as much. Look at the Enzo - 400 total build, 50% more expensive, and yet a lesser car. You want something good, you have to pay for it. The bigger the build run, the more other owners are helping you to pay for the development that made your car what it is. Occasionally you'll find a project in which the maker actually subsidises the product: all that got VAG/Bugatti was the need to go to Porsche for financial support.
It's an interesting issue - would you rather have a less good thing that is rare, or a better thing that is more common? Myself, I'd rather have the better thing. Its being better would give me more pleasure than fewer people having the same thing as I do. If I can't deal with the fact that a lot of people are enjoying the same thing as I am, maybe I don't deserve to have it at all.
roygarth said:
Look at the Enzo - 400 total build, 50% more expensive, and yet a lesser car.
In what way(s) is it a lesser car?
Build quality - it's not in the same league as a C2, much less the CGT.
In this case (if no other) I can't blame Ferrari. They need to make a handsome profit on their road cars because they kick up $100,000,000/year to the race team.
In addition, during the period in which the Enzo was being developed and built, Ferrari was aiming to do a flotation, for which of course they had to generate the best financial results possible. Pursuing that objective does not exactly push you to spending the incremental lira on developing a product when you know that you'll be able to sell however many you're planning to make. You may worry about build quality issues some time in the future - and poor build quality will never be an issue when all your cars will spend their lives sat in garages being polished, rather than on the road being driven.
I agree with the 959 conundrum, it has the '80s technology thing yet doesn't quite press the right buttons, even before you factor in the maintenance costs. I have an old road test of the time where they are testing a 959 and a 3.2 clubsport at Brunters...you start off reading the article eager to learn about the legendary 959, but the test driver goes off at a tangent, apparently seduced by the purity of the lightweight...far more appealing to me.
I really would be suprised if the 959 ever "makes it" as THE collectable 911 derivative, '70's RS/RSR follwoed by 993 Gt2 seem to have it sown up.
p.s. Flemke, I hope you get your 12" pizza delivered soon
I have this suspicion that the carrera GT will just keep itself out of reach of everyone who is going to buy one at a certain price before it is hailed as an underrated reasonably priced masterpiece and starts to stabilize/appreciate. Of the 1250 made I wouldn't be suprised if we are not close to F40 production numbers stil on the road before too long!
>> Edited by clubsport on Friday 30th December 20:33
I really would be suprised if the 959 ever "makes it" as THE collectable 911 derivative, '70's RS/RSR follwoed by 993 Gt2 seem to have it sown up.
p.s. Flemke, I hope you get your 12" pizza delivered soon
I have this suspicion that the carrera GT will just keep itself out of reach of everyone who is going to buy one at a certain price before it is hailed as an underrated reasonably priced masterpiece and starts to stabilize/appreciate. Of the 1250 made I wouldn't be suprised if we are not close to F40 production numbers stil on the road before too long!
>> Edited by clubsport on Friday 30th December 20:33
clubsport said:You're probably right. At the same time, if a CGT got to XJ220 money, it would cost less than the 993 GT2. I've got nothing against the GT2, but it's hardly in the same league as the CGT.
I agree with the 959 conundrum, it has the '80s technology thing yet doesn't quite press the right buttons, even before you factor in the maintenance costs. I have an old road test of the time where they are testing a 959 and a 3.2 clubsport at Brunters...you start off reading the article eager to learn about the legendary 959, but the test driver goes off at a tangent, apparently seduced by the purity of the lightweight...far more appealing to me.
I really would be suprised if the 959 ever "makes it" as THE collectable 911 derivative, '70's RS/RSR follwoed by 993 Gt2 seem to have it sown up.
clubsport said:Thank you - that'll be with extra salami.
p.s. Flemke, I hope you get your 12" pizza delivered soon
I appreciate you have a far better take on it than me, but I am sure a 993 Gt2 doesn't hold it's own against a C GT in terms of performance. Then again which one has direct motorsport heritage?
It really is odd sometimes the way Porsche values go>
'72 2.7 RS 100k+
'72 2.4S 40k
993 GT2 rhd 130k+
993 TT'S <60k
The C GT has to be the most capable Porsche ever offered to the general public? I appreciate not all of the general public have 3ook+ to spend, but for a car that has full sva approval over the odd 956/962 that may have sneaked under the wire through the Porsche motorsport division.
It will be interesting to see 993 Gt2 values from here, maybe they will follow 2.8RSR levels???...Personally I feel the smart money will be heading toward a C GT in the next 18 months.
It really is odd sometimes the way Porsche values go>
'72 2.7 RS 100k+
'72 2.4S 40k
993 GT2 rhd 130k+
993 TT'S <60k
The C GT has to be the most capable Porsche ever offered to the general public? I appreciate not all of the general public have 3ook+ to spend, but for a car that has full sva approval over the odd 956/962 that may have sneaked under the wire through the Porsche motorsport division.
It will be interesting to see 993 Gt2 values from here, maybe they will follow 2.8RSR levels???...Personally I feel the smart money will be heading toward a C GT in the next 18 months.
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