The Ring...

[SURJ_993C2S]

Go on a Sunday, drive on Monday, come back Tuesday. Like having the track to yourself (unless its immediately after a local GP)...

[lemon yella rs]

No NO No it's ridiculously busy then. Far better for max track time to go on a friday and go home Mon.

[NAS]

davyboy said:

iguana said: folk like Adenauer,joe911,flemke,francisb,davyboy I still like to think as myself as inexperienced.....and compared to some names mentioned there I still have a bit to learn....... ...and I still don't know where the Cherie bar is!

LOL, just drive all the way trhough Adenau, and when you come to the T junction, follow the main road (bending right). After 300m it's on your left. Just go for one beer, and then run!

[fergus]

joe911 said:

Some people might be prepared to sit in with you when you drive - but it's an acquired taste being driven there by a novice you've only just met - so don't expect lap after lap of help.

If you know your car quite well, and are not either a nervous driver or an aggressive one, then it is relatively easy to help someone out for 5 laps of so. In the first instance to help them spot the 5 or so 'surprises' that may catch out a first timer when they try to pick up the pace a touch! I've done this with Glenn Mc a few times in his GT3, which he seemed to really appreciate. I've also tried to give advice from the pax seats of other cars where I've felt very scared of the abilities of the drivers involved (inc. some who post on PH!)

PS Davyboy is a good bet for a smooth, sensible lap if you need advice, although he can muster the '44 turbo when appropriate!

[glenn mcmenamin]

fergus said:

joe911 said: Some people might be prepared to sit in with you when you drive - but it's an acquired taste being driven there by a novice you've only just met - so don't expect lap after lap of help. If you know your car quite well, and are not either a nervous driver or an aggressive one, then it is relatively easy to help someone out for 5 laps of so. In the first instance to help them spot the 5 or so 'surprises' that may catch out a first timer when they try to pick up the pace a touch! I've done this with Glenn Mc a few times in his GT3, which he seemed to really appreciate. I've also tried to give advice from the pax seats of other cars where I've felt very scared of the abilities of the drivers involved (inc. some who post on PH!) PS Davyboy is a good bet for a smooth, sensible lap if you need advice, although he can muster the '44 turbo when appropriate!

Yep,

Having your track knowledge helped me no end, when getting to grips with the place.


after that weekend, and another one later that year, i was even in a position to guide a few other novices around the
place. (god help them)


G.

[fergus]

Glenn 'Remmington' McMenamin - I liked the place so much, I bought a house!

[anonymous-user]

davyboy said:

iguana said: folk like Adenauer,joe911,flemke,francisb,davyboy I still like to think as myself as inexperienced.....and compared to some names mentioned there I still have a bit to learn.......

same here! well under 100 laps and 1 crash... the only things i know is how little i know, the spectators are at that point for a reason and the weather can be different between turn in and apex (sx!) ...

[flemke]

DanH said:

I did read on how they did it by breaking the track into sections, and then ducks and drakes over the hanseat line - I can see how it might be a little tedious and one instructor might be a little stretched. You've certainly put me off a tad. Perhaps the RMA trackday would be a better bet - the exclusive use is appealing or would I just be better off trying to do a few back to back public days? Is there a period you could recommend when the ring is both quiet, and unlikely to be covered in snow etc?

There are 12 sections: the NS is divided into 9 sections, the GP into 2, and there is a local AM&S skid pan facility for the 12th.
There are 12 groups of 25 cars each. Each group has a professional leader and two 'student' leaders who themselves know the circuit very well.
At each of the 9 sections of the NS there are 2-3 'specialist' instructors who stay in position at a certain bend. As each of the 25 cars of a group goes past, the specialist will speak into a mini tape recorder a comment about what the car is doing. When the last of the 25 cars has come to the end of a section, the entire group does a three-point turn and slowly drives back towards the strt oint of the section. On the way back, each car stops at each section specialist, who will use the just-taped commentary to critique the driver's technique.
It's not quite as tedious as it sounds, but it is somewhat so.

The programme starts with a talk and group meetings on Wed night. IIRC, there are two full days of driving Th-Fri, one final section of training plus practice Sat morning, then the test on Sat afternoon.
In all that time I think there are something like 3 hours of free driving around the entire circuit without the sectional stopping points. In light of the fact that some of the worst driving and biggest crashes occur during these 'free' sessions, I'm not sure that they're a highlight.

RMA are fine, but with their dates there is the weather issue. If you had decent weather and took, say, three hours of instruction/day with periods for individual practice and rest in between, in two days you would learn a reasonable amount.
You will never stop learning as long as you go there. Olaf says that he has never driven a lap with which he was completely satisfied, and he's driven a fair few.
In addition to the RMA dates, there are German track days occasionally.
As was said elsewhere, the Monday afternoons (1:00-7:30) can be really nice.

I concluded a while ago that one could approach driving at the 'ring either as an occasional recreation that's done in a reserved fashion, or as a serious endeavour that required a serious investment of one's time over years.
Both approaches make sense. I do think that you need to choose one or the other. The folks who confuse the two are the ones who come unstuck.

[domster]

I have a copy of the BMW circuit guide on pdf somewhere; email me through my profile if you want it.
This is because they also do a Hanseat style training course, for a couple of grand or something. I hear they let you ram a 5 series into some armco to train you for slowing down if you happen to meet the armco! Maybe Flemke or someone else knows more about it.

Ben Lovejoy's site is the UK visitor's ring bible, really. Then just take it easy and remember it's not a Playtation game. I wouldn't take Schwedenkreuz with the same abandon as I do in some PS2 lap unless I wanted a quick helicopter ride to the hospital. There isn't a lot of run off in most places, so mistakes can be costly. Plus they mix cars and bikes and everyone has different speeds and abilities, from Sabine circulating in an M5 ring taxi very quickly to a tour coach crawling around taking some grannies around... yes, it is scary overtaking something twice as tall as you on the entry to Brunnchen

Get there as soon as it opens for good laps; weekends get silly after it's been open for an hour or two. Just too busy and loads of stoppage time. It's a good time then to socialise (you never know which PHers you'll bump into there) or spectate (Adenaur-Forst is worth the walk... ask a regular when you get there and they'll explain).

Oh and above all, respect the place. It is the most amazing circuit in the world, IMO, with a wonderful social element attached to it like a Boxhill bike meet etc. but it has a scary reputation for a good reason.

[nervous]

me and sleep envy and a couple of others are going in june. would you like to come with us?

[GuyR]

I enjoyed the Scuderia Hanseat, although there is some standing around as mentioned (although that happens on any trackday as no-one can drive for 8 hours). It does have the advantages of really showing each section in detail and being able to stand/walk on the ring is an experience in itself, as is driving it in reverse on the sections. You really start to understand the gradients involved on some of the sections for instance.

Unless you participate in the 'free practice' lunchtime sessions which are a bit of a bunfight (as suggested by Flemke) and which I sat out of, you do all the NS driving on your own, so there's no need to look out for cars. The sections are driven as fast as you wish usually 2-3 times after the first slow 'ducks and drakes' run. (Excluding the GP circuit where the scale allows multiple cars simultaneously). The final day has a judged full-lap. The prize-giving dinner is tedious if you are not German.

I would say though that the Scuderia is better for people who have at least a general knowledge of the track first, so the specific details of sections and corners can be put in context. I would suggest that someone had done several days at the ring and therefore a good number of laps to benefit most from the Scuderia.

Guy

[anonymous-user]

flemke said:

I concluded a while ago that one could approach driving at the 'ring either as an occasional recreation that's done in a reserved fashion, or as a serious endeavour that required a serious investment of one's time over years.

what he said. ultimately it can be a frustrating hobby if you live in the uk!

[davyboy]

francisb said:

davyboy said: iguana said: folk like Adenauer,joe911,flemke,francisb,davyboy I still like to think as myself as inexperienced.....and compared to some names mentioned there I still have a bit to learn....... same here! well under 100 laps and 1 crash... the only things i know is how little i know, the spectators are at that point for a reason and the weather can be different between turn in and apex (sx!) ...

When I'd only done 30 laps, I used to think 100 laps meant you were expreienced. Now I think this means you just about know a few lines.

IMO and now that I've done a good few hundred laps, I'd say that over 1000 laps means you are expereinced.

[flemke]

domster said:

This is because they also do a Hanseat style training course, for a couple of grand or something. I hear they let you ram a 5 series into some armco to train you for slowing down if you happen to meet the armco! Maybe Flemke or someone else knows more about it.

Did this one. IMO it was slightly more enjoyable than SH - half as many people, someone else's car, more relaxed and less competitive, more time to walk bits of the circuit. Less free lapping, but no crashes.
They had M3s and 325s. I was unaware that they had a "crash a 5-series with impunity" section.
The last I knew they had discontinued offering an English-speaking group in the course. How's your German?

Both BMW and SH are mainly about getting track time and learning stuff on your own, supplemented by occasional input from observors who are not in your car. Having a proper instructor sitting beside you is a lot better.

[domster]

Yes, one to one tuition does sound the right way to go. Maybe I'll have to get Phil Bennett along or something.

I'm sure I didn't imagine the 5 series armco training, although the accountants may have put a stop to it, LOL.

For beginners, would you recommend looking out for the SH turn-in dots on some corners to prevent early turn in, etc. or do you think this could cause more problems than it solves?

ATB
Dom

[lemon yella rs]

hope it was'nt me who scared ya Fergus, though i am often scared of my lack of ability too.

[Joe911]

domster said:

I'm sure I didn't imagine the 5 series armco training, although the accountants may have put a stop to it, LOL.

I too have heard about a course where they teach you to stop a car using the Armco - but I didn't think it was in any way related to the Ring (where stopping using the Armco is practised daily by the punters).

[domster]

No, it seems it is the BMW Better Driving Course at the N'ring. This from another forum (BMW forum):

"On the Long Dottinger Hohe straight, they have built a special section of Armco for our 3 day event.BMW AG send a 5-7 series from Munich to be the Victim( Just when YOU thought it would YOUR car being reshaped-like that Peugeot 205 advert !!!!

Each driver at approx 45/50 Kmh drives parallel to rail and Gently leans the car against rail, clutch in and NO brake use, turning steering into rail-bringing car to a stop--then pulls off rail, turns around and repeats on the other side of the car !!!!!!!!!!!.Good training in someone else, s car."

Unless that was just hearsay as well. Will try and find more.

[flemke]

domster said:

Yes, one to one tuition does sound the right way to go. Maybe I'll have to get Phil Bennett along or something. I'm sure I didn't imagine the 5 series armco training, although the accountants may have put a stop to it, LOL. For beginners, would you recommend looking out for the SH turn-in dots on some corners to prevent early turn in, etc. or do you think this could cause more problems than it solves?

Dom,

The dots are for the SH and, as such, are the "safety line".
They're fine for giving the basic idea. Obviously it depends on conditions and car type. (I believe that the line for bikes is very different to the cars' line in places).
One thing - just because a dot is at the edge of the tarmac, that doesn't mean that you ought to be all the way out to the edge and then suddenly apply lock once your outside tyre had touched the dot.
At some places (Wehrseifen and Eschbach 2 come to mind), you approach the bend in a line several feet in from the outer edge, even though the dot is visibly positioned out at the edge. When you are even with, but not over, the dot you would turn in.