RE: Porsche 959 v 997 Turbo
Discussion
No one is going to confuse the modern Porsche with The Little Sisters of the Poor.
If we look at just one thing, however - how Porsche have evolved the same basic model over the last forty years to the very high state of development that it has reached, whilst over the same period Ferrari have chopped and changed so many times that one cannot keep track (but might sir be interested in a magnificent '86 Testarossa to complement his Mondial?) - we see companies with very different mentalities.
In the late '90s Ferrari and Porsche both aimed to build their next "supercar".
Result: Ferrari built a car that was quicker than the Porsche in only limited circumstances, was far less practical, looked awful in that OTT Italian blingfest way, had mediocre build quality, and cost almost twice as much as the Porsche.
Here we are a short time later, and the overpriced Enzo is still trading at a premium, whilst a Carrera GT with delivery miles can be had at a discount.
Like many of us, I wish that Porsche had done some things differently in the last decade, but IMO even today, at their most commercial and cynical, they remain a much classier outfit than Ferrari has ever been.
If we look at just one thing, however - how Porsche have evolved the same basic model over the last forty years to the very high state of development that it has reached, whilst over the same period Ferrari have chopped and changed so many times that one cannot keep track (but might sir be interested in a magnificent '86 Testarossa to complement his Mondial?) - we see companies with very different mentalities.
In the late '90s Ferrari and Porsche both aimed to build their next "supercar".
Result: Ferrari built a car that was quicker than the Porsche in only limited circumstances, was far less practical, looked awful in that OTT Italian blingfest way, had mediocre build quality, and cost almost twice as much as the Porsche.
Here we are a short time later, and the overpriced Enzo is still trading at a premium, whilst a Carrera GT with delivery miles can be had at a discount.
Like many of us, I wish that Porsche had done some things differently in the last decade, but IMO even today, at their most commercial and cynical, they remain a much classier outfit than Ferrari has ever been.
I totally agree re the ferrari comments.If someone can explain the way new cars are allocated in this country by Ferrari I would love to hear it because it seems to me to have nothing to do with brand loyalty and everything to do with how Ferrari can gain maximum exposure.Lovely engines though.Flemke can I ask you one final question please,have you ever driven a Cayman and what are your opinions on it,would be very interested to know,cheers.
I couldn't agree more with these views about Ferrari.
After some 20 years working with Porsches, I did at one stage have a couple of years with Ferrari. I was basically horrified what their customer's had to put up with in terms of ownership trials. Having said that, their one-make racers were spot on. In a sprint sense at least.
I must tell you though that just running down any pitlane in any Weissach Porsche racer, gives you the feeling that this is the right environment to take on a 24 hour event. Detailing for a tired driver is superb.
One cannot help but conclude though, that Porsche are one of the few car companies that get things 'right' (not 100% bullit proof - Mark 1 GT3 brakes were for example shit/a mistake, but for 95% of the time, right).
After some 20 years working with Porsches, I did at one stage have a couple of years with Ferrari. I was basically horrified what their customer's had to put up with in terms of ownership trials. Having said that, their one-make racers were spot on. In a sprint sense at least.
I must tell you though that just running down any pitlane in any Weissach Porsche racer, gives you the feeling that this is the right environment to take on a 24 hour event. Detailing for a tired driver is superb.
One cannot help but conclude though, that Porsche are one of the few car companies that get things 'right' (not 100% bullit proof - Mark 1 GT3 brakes were for example shit/a mistake, but for 95% of the time, right).
Thom said:
Ferrari found no other way to fund his racing ambition than building roads cars, while Porsche was more industrially-minded and had roads cars in mind since his early designs.
Don't be fooled into comparing apples with oranges.
Don't be fooled into comparing apples with oranges.
I think that that is precisely our point, Thom - that Ferrari road cars fall far short of what their devotees would have one believe. On a value-for-money basis they do not stand up to comparison with many other marques.
If I were buying a 2006 Formula One car, I'd seriously consider a Ferrari.
I'd be a lot less interested, however, in a Ferrari road car that was designed, as you say, for the purpose of maximising the profits that subsidise that Formula One car.
Wouldn't you wish to be the recipient of the best that Ferrari have to offer, rather than the chump who's paying for it but getting the booby prize instead?
I wouldn't call it "apples-to-oranges".
More like, amongst road cars, Porsches are the plums, and Ferraris are the prunes.
gunner said:
Flemke can I ask you one final question please,have you ever driven a Cayman and what are your opinions on it,would be very interested to know,cheers.
Not driven one, I'm afraid. Too underpowered to pique the interest (although that may be a great under-estimation. The NSX has turned out to be a superb road car, so perhaps the Cayman is as well.).Los Angeles said:
. . . I much prefer Ferrari's front engined designs, all of them, to any of the rear engine models. Which is to say, I think their GTs more beautiful than their sports cars. I say "curiously" because I admire their recent rear driven models yet have never been tempted to own one. . . .
I'm with you there LA.
LA,totally agree that for many reasons the current range of Lambos appeals more than their Ferrari equivalents,although if push came to shove I would not actually put my hand in my pocket to buy either.
Flemke,I ran a Cayman for a short time prior to an NSX and whilst I preferred the NSX in every way the Cayman surprised me and the two cars had definite similarities which is why I thought you might like one.Upon reflection I think that GT3 and,of course,carrera GT aside, the Cayman might just be my favourite current Porsche.Having said that the Cayman definitely feels underpowered whereas the nsx never does.For the money they are currently available at I do not think there is a roadcar to touch the NSX.I just sold mine,impending fatherhood necessitated the sale of a two seater,but I will miss it like mad and I will definitely buy another NSX one day.
Flemke,I ran a Cayman for a short time prior to an NSX and whilst I preferred the NSX in every way the Cayman surprised me and the two cars had definite similarities which is why I thought you might like one.Upon reflection I think that GT3 and,of course,carrera GT aside, the Cayman might just be my favourite current Porsche.Having said that the Cayman definitely feels underpowered whereas the nsx never does.For the money they are currently available at I do not think there is a roadcar to touch the NSX.I just sold mine,impending fatherhood necessitated the sale of a two seater,but I will miss it like mad and I will definitely buy another NSX one day.
gunner said:
Having said that the Cayman definitely feels underpowered whereas the nsx never does.
Really! I reckon the NSX could do with a better engine and better brakes - but them I'm comparing it against the current crop of cars, and not against cars of a similar age (i.e. designed more than 15 years ago).
gunner said:
For the money they are currently available at I do not think there is a roadcar to touch the NSX.
The NSX is a really really fine road car, but IMHO - a GT3 is way better - more fun, more involving, faster (A to B) --- but then it would be, it's 10 years newer.
Having driven a 997 GT3 recently I can understand ...
The 997-GT3 has such a good chassis with really excellent handling, stunningly good steering feel, and strong useable brakes. So while the engine is pretty powerful (about 410 bhp I think) - it somehow doesn't feel as quick as it actually is.
Maybe the same is true of the Cayman - perhaps the chassis is capable of so much more that it gives the impression of needing more power?
The 997-GT3 has such a good chassis with really excellent handling, stunningly good steering feel, and strong useable brakes. So while the engine is pretty powerful (about 410 bhp I think) - it somehow doesn't feel as quick as it actually is.
Maybe the same is true of the Cayman - perhaps the chassis is capable of so much more that it gives the impression of needing more power?
flemke said:
I'd be a lot less interested, however, in a Ferrari road car that was designed, as you say, for the purpose of maximising the profits that subsidise that Formula One car.
Wouldn't you wish to be the recipient of the best that Ferrari have to offer, rather than the chump who's paying for it but getting the booby prize instead?
Wouldn't you wish to be the recipient of the best that Ferrari have to offer, rather than the chump who's paying for it but getting the booby prize instead?
Well, it's a known thing that the best of Ferrari knowledge is reserved to the race cars, so why would people even bother with a Ferrari road car if they seek the best of the best ?
I am sure there is a good number of Ferrari owners who are aware of that and if that makes them satisfied then good on them.
Many people who have been overwhelmed by the use of overly pragmatic German cars seem to have become frustrated with that one way loyalty process. Wether it's defendable or not is one thing I don't feel entitled to comment on, though.
Thom said:
flemke said:
I'd be a lot less interested, however, in a Ferrari road car that was designed, as you say, for the purpose of maximising the profits that subsidise that Formula One car.
Wouldn't you wish to be the recipient of the best that Ferrari have to offer, rather than the chump who's paying for it but getting the booby prize instead?
Wouldn't you wish to be the recipient of the best that Ferrari have to offer, rather than the chump who's paying for it but getting the booby prize instead?
Well, it's a known thing that the best of Ferrari knowledge is reserved to the race cars, so why would people even bother with a Ferrari road car if they seek the best of the best ?
I am sure there is a good number of Ferrari owners who are aware of that and if that makes them satisfied then good on them.
Many people who have been overwhelmed by the use of overly pragmatic German cars seem to have become frustrated with that one way loyalty process. Wether it's defendable or not is one thing I don't feel entitled to comment on, though.
It's a free world, at least for us lucky ones who live in democracies.
To my way of thinking, there is a difference between a company that exists to make road cars and goes racing as a means to market those road cars, and a company that exists to go racing, and makes road cars as a means to finance the racing.
I'd be inclined to buy a road car from the former, and a race car from the latter. Doesn't that seem logical?
Joe911 said:
The NSX is a really really fine road car, but IMHO - a GT3 is way better - more fun, more involving, faster (A to B) --- but then it would be, it's 10 years newer.
Having within the last fortnight put a few hundred B-road-type miles on each, I'm not sure that I agree about the fun and involvement. Faster, yes, but that's the least important part.Here,here.Sorry to have hijacked this thread.The noise alone makes the NSX feel fast and exilerating in a way that very few cars manage imo.I have not yet driven a 997GT3 but I briefly owned a 997TT which was clearly much faster than the NSX but every time I needed to drive somewhere it was the NSX keys I would reach for.Despite being quicker and more accomplished the 997 was not nearly as much fun to drive.
flemke said:
Joe911 said:
The NSX is a really really fine road car, but IMHO - a GT3 is way better - more fun, more involving, faster (A to B) --- but then it would be, it's 10 years newer.
Having within the last fortnight put a few hundred B-road-type miles on each, I'm not sure that I agree about the fun and involvement. Faster, yes, but that's the least important part.Considering the chasm in the price of good 2nd hand examples of each (and their intended buyer) its a bit like comparing apples and oranges isn't it? Surely a better comparison would be GT3 vs NA2 NSX Type-R, one which the GT3 would find much more challenging.
Besides for a blast on a typically lumpy, adverse cambered British B-road a standard NSX would be the more useable tool with its magic carpet ride, lucid feedback, progressive and predictable handling characteristics.
trackdemon said:
flemke said:
Joe911 said:
The NSX is a really really fine road car, but IMHO - a GT3 is way better - more fun, more involving, faster (A to B) --- but then it would be, it's 10 years newer.
Having within the last fortnight put a few hundred B-road-type miles on each, I'm not sure that I agree about the fun and involvement. Faster, yes, but that's the least important part.Considering the chasm in the price of good 2nd hand examples of each (and their intended buyer) its a bit like comparing apples and oranges isn't it?
Is it? A good second hand (as they're not available new) NSX is about 45K (I think) - and you can get (older) GT3's for that kind of money, right? I'd accept being wrong on this as I'm not in the market for either.
If you want to give me £45k for mine, I'll be a very happy man 
FWIW £20k will get you into a good, useable 3.0 manual NSX of '95-96 vintage. There's little difference in real world performance between that and a later 3.2 6-speed (which are available from say £28k...). Quite a £££ margin, but the NSX remains the more useable B-road tool no matter what the cost. Undeniably the GT3 is superior on track, and thoroughly brilliant.
FWIW £20k will get you into a good, useable 3.0 manual NSX of '95-96 vintage. There's little difference in real world performance between that and a later 3.2 6-speed (which are available from say £28k...). Quite a £££ margin, but the NSX remains the more useable B-road tool no matter what the cost. Undeniably the GT3 is superior on track, and thoroughly brilliant.
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