RE: Porsche 959 v 997 Turbo
Discussion
There have been some fairly imflammatory posts on here in the last two pages. I can only say that I agree that all modern cars are too competent to be satisfying on a public road (and I got banned in an old M5). 996/7 turbos are a complete irrelevence in the enthusiasts mind unless you use Germany as a track. 80's/90's Ferraris are one great big fib (however, in the day of 600 hp Mercs the 599 is less so). But if I had daft money to spend on a car I'd pick a 250SWB or Lusso depending on test drive. Both weigh barely over a ton, both slide at the driver's whim, both look extraordinary in a way no Porsche ever could, both are steeped in history and would feel extraordinarily special. The 997 is a fast cramped taxi after that - any mucker could lap any track at racing speed - sense of achievenment?
Flemke, I have more respect for your views than even Gordon Murray's (he's a bit blinkered, so little product in the last 10 years), and I appreciate your respect for German vs Italian BS, and the emphasis on light weight (I'd like a mainstream co to build my Striker), but Porsche were rally cars when Ferrari won Le mans, F1, GT in the same year, and the GTO and it's ilk reputedly have amongst the best balance/steering when the rest of the world were just realising hpw bad the 911 handled. So please give the Italians some respect.
Lets face it all modern cars are incresingly mindnumbing. My 3.8 M5 had no stability or traction control but had such exquisite manners even I didn't need either in any circumstance or at any speed. It made me feel like the champ i'm not, and as you get older that just gets better. I don't know what to buy now (can't afford a TVR)
Flemke, I have more respect for your views than even Gordon Murray's (he's a bit blinkered, so little product in the last 10 years), and I appreciate your respect for German vs Italian BS, and the emphasis on light weight (I'd like a mainstream co to build my Striker), but Porsche were rally cars when Ferrari won Le mans, F1, GT in the same year, and the GTO and it's ilk reputedly have amongst the best balance/steering when the rest of the world were just realising hpw bad the 911 handled. So please give the Italians some respect.
Lets face it all modern cars are incresingly mindnumbing. My 3.8 M5 had no stability or traction control but had such exquisite manners even I didn't need either in any circumstance or at any speed. It made me feel like the champ i'm not, and as you get older that just gets better. I don't know what to buy now (can't afford a TVR)
baddie said:
... but Porsche were rally cars when Ferrari won Le mans, F1, GT in the same year, and the GTO and it's ilk reputedly have amongst the best balance/steering when the rest of the world were just realising hpw bad the 911 handled. So please give the Italians some respect.
Can't disagree with any of that, and I have said that there are many things in the Ferrari history to respect and admire: making world-class F1 cars and sports-racers side-by-side for 15 years, making their own engines as well as being a constructor, being the...catalyst... for some truly glorious machines (SWB, as you say, 312PB, 275 GTB, 750 Monza, a few others), the fact that over the last 8 years their F1 cars have on average been the best. Mauro Forgieri, Gioacchino Colombo, Mario Andretti, Dan Gurney, Arturo Merzario, Gilles Villeneuve, Fangio (sort of). I have tried to give them credit where it has been due.
What makes me puke are the hagiography, the massively overpriced (or, if you will, under-built) modern road cars, their consistently unsporting behaviour in F1, and above all the arrogance and the presumption of theirs and their millions of robotic supporters that somehow they deserve to be treated as a higher species of car maker. Six million pounds for a 250 GTO? Give me a break!
I feel obliged to emphasise criticism of Ferrari, as opposed to praise, because they've got more than enough cheerleaders already.
Ferrari IMO are one of the greats but cars have alws been about business. Ferrai ant so much a car brand IMO as an almost cult. Ferrar leant from the mistakes of bugatti.... (lets face they were stunningly well built) Ferrari have wone more because they have been around longer and had more to spend. Ferraris great achivment was not just building the greats (sorry but i love the 250 GTO as a work of art alone 6 mill cant be to bad i mean dont get me started on the cost of a vangough and as for modern art.. but hey thats just me mr phillstine) but also building a busness that survives the lows. I mean how long did they go without major sucess before those last 8 years.
Now thats not to know ferrari as a petrol head cars for me are more emotional that about figgures its about how they make you feel and Ferrari seam to be very good at that anouther great achivment imo. Ferrari in terms or sucess rate races enterd to races won are not so good in ratio terms but still ferrari has done a great deal to acheve an emotional hold on its fans and all credit for that. But its centainly not beond critisism.......
I personally love the old cars i mean lets face it really a 996 is never gona be the experance of 959 even if its tecnically superiour today. The 959 was the cutting edge and all hail it for that. (i love both modern and old but for diffrent reasons BTW.....)
Plese dont flame me to first post! Ive finally bitten the buillet and joined thanks in part to event below finally geting me of my arse.........
And hi Flemke i saw your f1 today on the a3 and down wandsworth high stret really made my day so nice to see it and see it being used even in the rain!
Now thats not to know ferrari as a petrol head cars for me are more emotional that about figgures its about how they make you feel and Ferrari seam to be very good at that anouther great achivment imo. Ferrari in terms or sucess rate races enterd to races won are not so good in ratio terms but still ferrari has done a great deal to acheve an emotional hold on its fans and all credit for that. But its centainly not beond critisism.......
I personally love the old cars i mean lets face it really a 996 is never gona be the experance of 959 even if its tecnically superiour today. The 959 was the cutting edge and all hail it for that. (i love both modern and old but for diffrent reasons BTW.....)
Plese dont flame me to first post! Ive finally bitten the buillet and joined thanks in part to event below finally geting me of my arse.........
And hi Flemke i saw your f1 today on the a3 and down wandsworth high stret really made my day so nice to see it and see it being used even in the rain!
Edited by ghost man on Wednesday 21st February 02:04
Harry Flashman said:
993TT is the last of the Turbo cars that I really want to own. Both 996 and 997 just seem too sanitised (although I have not yet driven a 997TT, so I could well be wrong)
Getting a passenger trip round the Weisach test track in a factory 997 Twin turbo...certainly isnt sanitised I can assure you all! Bear in mind the cost of ownership v performance, the 997 Turbo wins everytime...which you'd expect 20-odd years later.....saying that, that surely shows just how great the 959 was/is...
ghost man said:
but also building a busness that survives the lows. I mean how long did they go without major sucess before those last 8 years.
They were helped a bit by being owned by one of the biggest companies in Italy for the last forty years.
ghost man said:
And hi Flemke i saw your f1 today on the a3 and down wandsworth high stret really made my day so nice to see it and see it being used even in the rain!
That bit in Wandsworth was the good part of the day. It got a whole lot worse.
Anyhow, welcome to PH!
flemke said:
That bit in Wandsworth was the good part of the day. It got a whole lot worse.
Anyhow, welcome to PH!
Anyhow, welcome to PH!
Wow thanks for the welcome.
and sory to hear that hope it wasnt to bad im hoping to see it come through again some time you went buy me on the a3 an f1 in you mirriors is quite a sight.
ghost man said:
flemke said:
That bit in Wandsworth was the good part of the day. It got a whole lot worse.
Anyhow, welcome to PH!
Anyhow, welcome to PH!
Wow thanks for the welcome.
and sory to hear that hope it wasnt to bad im hoping to see it come through again some time you went buy me on the a3 an f1 in you mirriors is quite a sight.
That might take awhile. The Wandsworth one-way system is not a thoroughfare that I choose to frequent in the F1 or in anythinig else. But you never know.
Cheers.
flemke said:
Carrera2 said:
DO you have anything else that we need to be made aware of? 
Zonda, konesiggggggg etc maybe?
Carrera, Zonda, konesiggggggg etc maybe?I may have some other things.
I don't have any cars that have truly misconceived bits (such as Zonda back end or K'egg rear window).
I don't like cars that are stylised with junk, such as Veyron spun-aluminium console, or almost everything on the mind-bendingly ugly Spyker.
I don't care for girls' cars, although I admire women who have them and drive them well.
I prefer NA in sports cars.
I can't stand heavy cars.
I don't have any Italian cars, because of my aversion to dishonesty.
Does that narrow it down enough?
Cheers.
Do you not like Girly cars after the experience with the RUF Boxster...dont worry I am not a stalker...you know me...think black 911 and the girly Z3M we took to the 'ring!
Edited by Caddyshack on Saturday 24th February 17:57
Caddyshack said:
Do you not like Girly cars after the experience with the RUF Boxster...dont worry I am not a stalker...you know me...think black 911 and the girly Z3M we took to the 'ring!
The idea there was to turn it into a proper car.
Unfortunately the experiment was not a success, although it was worth trying.
Of course that was long before the intorduction of the Cayman, which would have been a much better candidate for the transplant.
I agree the Cayman would be a better choice, in my opinion it is more of a modern take on the 993 and I would much rather replace my 993 with one than a 997 based on the fact that it would be more rewarding at real road speeds, I found the 996 Turbo a fantastic car but you had to be doing over 100 mph before it felt alive.
997 turbo every day of the week.. after owning numerous 911's I have to say my new Turbo is in a differant league and thats after coming out of my Gallardo too... It simply ticks all the boxes and delivers everything you want every time... acceleration is scary and can honestly say after owning numerous supercars and driven just about everything out there... the 997 turbo is still the best all weather supercar out there...
I suppose if I was looking for more involvement and fun factor I would have a TVR ahead of anything else...had some really fun times with the Tivs....
I suppose if I was looking for more involvement and fun factor I would have a TVR ahead of anything else...had some really fun times with the Tivs....
Nick Beef said:
997 turbo every day of the week.. after owning numerous 911's I have to say my new Turbo is in a differant league and thats after coming out of my Gallardo too... It simply ticks all the boxes and delivers everything you want every time... acceleration is scary and can honestly say after owning numerous supercars and driven just about everything out there... the 997 turbo is still the best all weather supercar out there...
I suppose if I was looking for more involvement and fun factor I would have a TVR ahead of anything else...had some really fun times with the Tivs....
Welcome back. 997t for every day of the week but 959 for those special drives surely? When the 959 was released in 1987 it really did set a new technological benchmark and as such will always have its place up in the upper echelons of Porsche history. The fact that the 997t has barely moved the game on 20 yrs later and that every product in the modern Porsche range derives technologhy form this one techno showcase of a car is a real testimony to the 959. Hope I get to at least drive a 959 one day I suppose if I was looking for more involvement and fun factor I would have a TVR ahead of anything else...had some really fun times with the Tivs....
IMI A said:
Welcome back. 997t for every day of the week but 959 for those special drives surely? When the 959 was released in 1987 it really did set a new technological benchmark and as such will always have its place up in the upper echelons of Porsche history. The fact that the 997t has barely moved the game on 20 yrs later and that every product in the modern Porsche range derives technologhy form this one techno showcase of a car is a real testimony to the 959. Hope I get to at least drive a 959 one day
While the 959 was ahead of its time and is fantastic, a real showcase from the 80's - it feels severely dynamically limited in a way that more modern turbo-4's aren't (I mean that it is devastating in a straight line but changing direction is a major issue). I think that to say the 997tt has barely moved the game on is not true.If you want practicality or a quick Ring time - take the 997, if you want a piece of history and the best feeling brakes on the planet, then it's the 959.
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