Porsche and Tivs
Discussion
'Just as good' is a bit subjective there, Rob ;-)
I like TVRs for their value - performance per pound they outdo any Porsche. And, yes, they have character. Yet for build integrity and reliability they are many miles apart, and that is where the extra weight and cost of a Porsche comes in.
I'm all for supporting British companies, but this argument is a bit warped.
If we all bought Austin Allegros in the 1970s 'to support British car manufacturing', we'd be driving some f***ed up seventh generation Allegro now, with an airbag in its square steering wheel. I say, buy quality, because as a consumer it will mean we get quality in the future.
At the moment, Peter Wheeler flogs every car he makes, the press love him, and so he can afford to dismiss customer complaints. 'If you don't like em, don't buy em' he's thinking.
Imagine if everyone stopped buying TiVs until Peter Wheeler stopped taking the piss and made them properly. One day he would think 'shit, I'd better start listening to complaints and start making well-built cars', and you would then have a TVR that was fast, characterful, maybe a little bit more expensive by a grand or two, but one that wouldn't fall apart and which would have been fully tested. A TVR with Porsche levels of build. The world would then be a much better place, would it not?
I like TVRs for their value - performance per pound they outdo any Porsche. And, yes, they have character. Yet for build integrity and reliability they are many miles apart, and that is where the extra weight and cost of a Porsche comes in.
I'm all for supporting British companies, but this argument is a bit warped.
If we all bought Austin Allegros in the 1970s 'to support British car manufacturing', we'd be driving some f***ed up seventh generation Allegro now, with an airbag in its square steering wheel. I say, buy quality, because as a consumer it will mean we get quality in the future.
At the moment, Peter Wheeler flogs every car he makes, the press love him, and so he can afford to dismiss customer complaints. 'If you don't like em, don't buy em' he's thinking.
Imagine if everyone stopped buying TiVs until Peter Wheeler stopped taking the piss and made them properly. One day he would think 'shit, I'd better start listening to complaints and start making well-built cars', and you would then have a TVR that was fast, characterful, maybe a little bit more expensive by a grand or two, but one that wouldn't fall apart and which would have been fully tested. A TVR with Porsche levels of build. The world would then be a much better place, would it not?
Dom,
I think likening TVR's to 1970's Austin Allegros is a little harsh. I think it is important to remember with TVR is that they engineer their cars from experience on the race track and the fact that Peter Wheeler is intelligent enough to keep his costs very low should be praised not critcised especially when a 100k Ferrari would be in the garage as much as if not more than a TVR.
The fact that people do buy TVR's suggests to me that Peter Wheeler isn't taking the piss and people actually quite like his methods. No-one debated Porsche engineering and the company pride themselves on it! I think the price tag does not reflect the level of engineering like I said before look at Ferrari.
Currently the idea of having a Porsche is because of the name it bears on the bonnet, gradually extremely wealthy people such as David Beckham are coming round to the fact that whether you have 10 million of 100k a TVR is a special thing to be in. It is not mass produced and on every street corner in Kensington it has character, stunning looks, innovative ideas and some of the fastest most exciting cars on the road at the moment. The makers of Swordfish wanted something `different and exotic'. Thats what you get when you buy a TVR. Lets be honest you can't argue with Hollywood Will Smith drove a 911 in Bad Boys but in the 21st century the Tuscan is what the people want,
Rob
I think likening TVR's to 1970's Austin Allegros is a little harsh. I think it is important to remember with TVR is that they engineer their cars from experience on the race track and the fact that Peter Wheeler is intelligent enough to keep his costs very low should be praised not critcised especially when a 100k Ferrari would be in the garage as much as if not more than a TVR.
The fact that people do buy TVR's suggests to me that Peter Wheeler isn't taking the piss and people actually quite like his methods. No-one debated Porsche engineering and the company pride themselves on it! I think the price tag does not reflect the level of engineering like I said before look at Ferrari.
Currently the idea of having a Porsche is because of the name it bears on the bonnet, gradually extremely wealthy people such as David Beckham are coming round to the fact that whether you have 10 million of 100k a TVR is a special thing to be in. It is not mass produced and on every street corner in Kensington it has character, stunning looks, innovative ideas and some of the fastest most exciting cars on the road at the moment. The makers of Swordfish wanted something `different and exotic'. Thats what you get when you buy a TVR. Lets be honest you can't argue with Hollywood Will Smith drove a 911 in Bad Boys but in the 21st century the Tuscan is what the people want,
Rob
I really wonder why everybody here are wasting there skills in comparing TVRs with Porsches: once for all one can't do the job of the other one.
Apparently it seems to me we all of us want a TVR with Porsche reliability and usability. This is absolutely impossible because:
- first TVR will NEVER be wealthy enough to develop their cars correctly, whatever the amount of cars they sell every year
- A TVR as usable as a Porsche would not be a TVR anymore, for eventual everyday use would certainly mean softening the whole car.
IMHO, if TVR followed more rigorously a racing programme (ie on an international scale: ALMS, Le Mans,etc) ,it would off course help them become more famous but also learn where best solutions are learned: in the racing arena.
Apparently it seems to me we all of us want a TVR with Porsche reliability and usability. This is absolutely impossible because:
- first TVR will NEVER be wealthy enough to develop their cars correctly, whatever the amount of cars they sell every year
- A TVR as usable as a Porsche would not be a TVR anymore, for eventual everyday use would certainly mean softening the whole car.
IMHO, if TVR followed more rigorously a racing programme (ie on an international scale: ALMS, Le Mans,etc) ,it would off course help them become more famous but also learn where best solutions are learned: in the racing arena.
Thom, I quite agree - but Mr BG states:
"The fact that people do buy TVR's suggests to me that Peter Wheeler isn't taking the piss and people actually quite like his methods."
BG - this says to me that TiV owners actually like Peter Wheeler giving them chocolate engines blah blah blah.
If they do, then shouldn't they be sectioned along with Adam Ant?
However, I can take the point that maybe BG is referring to Peter Wheeler's attitude of building cheap and quick cars (with associated problems as part of the deal), rather than well-built and expensive sports cars. You pays your money, you takes your choice etc. This is fair enough.
What I don't understand is the hyper defensive attitude of some TiV owners (not you in particular BG). A better built TiV is in everyone's interests. I might even buy one, and then Peter Wheeler could get some of my money.
As for lumping Allegros with TVRs - well I wasn't really - but BG did seem to come in with his Union Jack undies on. The point is that if British companies have faults, we should do a John Harvey Jones, instead of letting the stiff upper lip wobble. I buy British when I can... 3 out of my 5 last cars have been built in the UK... but I'll still make a decision based primarily on quality/value. And a car's got to have both.
(OK that last 'value' comment may rule out brand new Porsches, and all Ferraris, but you can't deny Porsche the quality card.)
As for Porsches being status symbols - I think there is still an element of that, but I have seen as many poseurs in TiVs. Maybe they like the exclusivity and raucous exhaust note ;-) Most porkers I see are Boxsters and these aren't really chest wig chariots owned by show-offs - the owners are more likely to be accountants going through a mid life crisis. There's probably a higher chance of seeing a pearlescent TiV parked outside a nightclub or the Man Utd training ground these days.
Thom - as for whether TVR will ever be able to afford to develop their cars properly, well, yes, I think they will. With a change of strategy.
Don't make a new model every year - develop one properly. That is how Caterham have managed to do it.
Also, making their own engine was courageous - hats off - but maybe there was a mass maunufactured alternative. The Pagani Zonda uses a Merc engine, for example. Unit cost will be higher, but think of the development costs for the AJP, and the fact that there have been problems years later that needed sorting.
All IMHO and with regards
Domster
"The fact that people do buy TVR's suggests to me that Peter Wheeler isn't taking the piss and people actually quite like his methods."
BG - this says to me that TiV owners actually like Peter Wheeler giving them chocolate engines blah blah blah.
If they do, then shouldn't they be sectioned along with Adam Ant?
However, I can take the point that maybe BG is referring to Peter Wheeler's attitude of building cheap and quick cars (with associated problems as part of the deal), rather than well-built and expensive sports cars. You pays your money, you takes your choice etc. This is fair enough.
What I don't understand is the hyper defensive attitude of some TiV owners (not you in particular BG). A better built TiV is in everyone's interests. I might even buy one, and then Peter Wheeler could get some of my money.
As for lumping Allegros with TVRs - well I wasn't really - but BG did seem to come in with his Union Jack undies on. The point is that if British companies have faults, we should do a John Harvey Jones, instead of letting the stiff upper lip wobble. I buy British when I can... 3 out of my 5 last cars have been built in the UK... but I'll still make a decision based primarily on quality/value. And a car's got to have both.
(OK that last 'value' comment may rule out brand new Porsches, and all Ferraris, but you can't deny Porsche the quality card.)
As for Porsches being status symbols - I think there is still an element of that, but I have seen as many poseurs in TiVs. Maybe they like the exclusivity and raucous exhaust note ;-) Most porkers I see are Boxsters and these aren't really chest wig chariots owned by show-offs - the owners are more likely to be accountants going through a mid life crisis. There's probably a higher chance of seeing a pearlescent TiV parked outside a nightclub or the Man Utd training ground these days.
Thom - as for whether TVR will ever be able to afford to develop their cars properly, well, yes, I think they will. With a change of strategy.
Don't make a new model every year - develop one properly. That is how Caterham have managed to do it.
Also, making their own engine was courageous - hats off - but maybe there was a mass maunufactured alternative. The Pagani Zonda uses a Merc engine, for example. Unit cost will be higher, but think of the development costs for the AJP, and the fact that there have been problems years later that needed sorting.
All IMHO and with regards
Domster
quote:
Thom - as for whether TVR will ever be able to afford to develop their cars properly, well, yes, I think they will. With a change of strategy.
I hope so.
quote:
Don't make a new model every year - develop one properly. That is how Caterham have managed to do it.
Sorry but the Caterham example is IMHO not appropriate: Caterham will go through the wall because their 7 won't be able to survive strengthening of the crash tests requirements.
quote:
Also, making their own engine was courageous - hats off - but maybe there was a mass maunufactured alternative. The Pagani Zonda uses a Merc engine, for example. Unit cost will be higher, but think of the development costs for the AJP, and the fact that there have been problems years later that needed sorting.
Even if this is right it won't happen for they have gone much too far in engine building to go back ( and worst of all interpreted as a give up...
) 
Yeah, it's probably cheaper for them to get the AJP engine perfect now. The development period is nearly over. Some engines must be well over 100k miles.
I see what you mean about Caterham, although I think legislation will always have a few loopholes for 'classic cars' etc.
I know that in places like Sweden, people import Caterhams, install an old twin cam engine c1973 and then try and get a pre-legislation reg. Or something.
Cheers
Domster
I see what you mean about Caterham, although I think legislation will always have a few loopholes for 'classic cars' etc.
I know that in places like Sweden, people import Caterhams, install an old twin cam engine c1973 and then try and get a pre-legislation reg. Or something.
Cheers
Domster
Hi Dom,
Oh yeah, thats what I need, more power!!! their is a company here in the U.S. that sells a kit that looks very much like one. the thing I know about superchargers is that the torque goes up alot more than the hp figures would lead you to believe. Its just hard to nail down some figures on how much though. can someone out there tell me ?? Another thing, why did that car you know blow up???? The kit out here uses 4.5 psi, not 6.0 psi. speed.
Oh yeah, thats what I need, more power!!! their is a company here in the U.S. that sells a kit that looks very much like one. the thing I know about superchargers is that the torque goes up alot more than the hp figures would lead you to believe. Its just hard to nail down some figures on how much though. can someone out there tell me ?? Another thing, why did that car you know blow up???? The kit out here uses 4.5 psi, not 6.0 psi. speed.
Dear Santa,
I have figured out what I want for this year due to the fact that you forgot to bring these things last year. So here it goes.
1. I need the supercharger for my RS and don't be funny, I want the whole kit.
2. Two factory lightweight seats for my car and I perfer black, with red piping.
3. A new set of red seat belts because, my original ones have been cleaned way to many times. Oh yeah, they may be out of stock at porsche but, I guess you know that.
4. Hey Santa, look, I've held my end of the deal every year so, what about you.
your friend, speed.
I have figured out what I want for this year due to the fact that you forgot to bring these things last year. So here it goes.
1. I need the supercharger for my RS and don't be funny, I want the whole kit.
2. Two factory lightweight seats for my car and I perfer black, with red piping.
3. A new set of red seat belts because, my original ones have been cleaned way to many times. Oh yeah, they may be out of stock at porsche but, I guess you know that.
4. Hey Santa, look, I've held my end of the deal every year so, what about you.
your friend, speed.
Hi speed,
Not sure about torque figures, but as you say, it should be more than the bhp increase.
4.5 psi isn't too much, so reliability shouldn't be a deal-breaker. However, the one I know that blew was used quite hard, and I don't know the specifics. I was just told that it 'grenaded', presumably something letting go at high revs, maybe a bottom end bearing.
Remember that these conversions basically keep all other parts standard, and although the Euro RS at least had a blueprinted engine, you are giving it another 90 or so bhp to contend with - plus a lot of extra torque. Puts extra stresses everywhere. Maybe uprated conrods would help.
The biggest reliability problem would be the supercharger itself, I would think, as although the Eaton unit is pretty simple and well made it is a bag of extra complication. I know that VW G-lader engines have more reliability problems.
As for Santa's requests, well good luck, but I'm not sure you can get red piping on the lightweight RS seats you may be talking about. The ones I've seen have not been piped, but they do have a segment of three different seat pads, often in different colours. Maybe you could get those in red.
The new 996 Turbo buckets look quite sexy though.
Cheers
Domster
Not sure about torque figures, but as you say, it should be more than the bhp increase.
4.5 psi isn't too much, so reliability shouldn't be a deal-breaker. However, the one I know that blew was used quite hard, and I don't know the specifics. I was just told that it 'grenaded', presumably something letting go at high revs, maybe a bottom end bearing.
Remember that these conversions basically keep all other parts standard, and although the Euro RS at least had a blueprinted engine, you are giving it another 90 or so bhp to contend with - plus a lot of extra torque. Puts extra stresses everywhere. Maybe uprated conrods would help.
The biggest reliability problem would be the supercharger itself, I would think, as although the Eaton unit is pretty simple and well made it is a bag of extra complication. I know that VW G-lader engines have more reliability problems.
As for Santa's requests, well good luck, but I'm not sure you can get red piping on the lightweight RS seats you may be talking about. The ones I've seen have not been piped, but they do have a segment of three different seat pads, often in different colours. Maybe you could get those in red.
The new 996 Turbo buckets look quite sexy though.
Cheers
Domster
Hey Domster,
thanks for the info, I'm gonna write to those guys about the system on that car. Yeah,those seats look great but, I hear their like 3k/seat though. sounds like recaro race seats for me, the best ones in their line are about $700. U.S. and their on sale all the time. Do you know of any RUF turbo conversions out there ? 993,964 rct or btr?? speed.
thanks for the info, I'm gonna write to those guys about the system on that car. Yeah,those seats look great but, I hear their like 3k/seat though. sounds like recaro race seats for me, the best ones in their line are about $700. U.S. and their on sale all the time. Do you know of any RUF turbo conversions out there ? 993,964 rct or btr?? speed.
Hi speed,
Do you mean Ruf conversions as in cars for sale, or upgrade kits?
Don't know many Ruf cars in the UK, but they are based in Weybridge, Surrey and may have a website. The german Ruf website you probably know about, and mobile.de will have a handful for sale.
As for conversions, I think only Ruf do these, and they aren't overly cheap. I think turbocharging is a bigger affair than supercharging, though... useful for big hp gains, but not as simple as the bolt on Eaton unit.
After all, once you get near +1 bar boost, bits will need uptrating in the engine, and the project gets much more expensive. Also the intake charge is hotter in a turbocharged system, I believe, because of the heat generated by the exhaust driven turbo. This means an intercooler, which will require a whale tail (which you have I think?) etc.
Apparently you can get 330 bhp out of a normally aspirated RS engine - I think 930 Motorsport in the UK has done this. Maybe drop them an email. It may be cheaper/easier than the forced induction route.
Cheers
Domster
Do you mean Ruf conversions as in cars for sale, or upgrade kits?
Don't know many Ruf cars in the UK, but they are based in Weybridge, Surrey and may have a website. The german Ruf website you probably know about, and mobile.de will have a handful for sale.
As for conversions, I think only Ruf do these, and they aren't overly cheap. I think turbocharging is a bigger affair than supercharging, though... useful for big hp gains, but not as simple as the bolt on Eaton unit.
After all, once you get near +1 bar boost, bits will need uptrating in the engine, and the project gets much more expensive. Also the intake charge is hotter in a turbocharged system, I believe, because of the heat generated by the exhaust driven turbo. This means an intercooler, which will require a whale tail (which you have I think?) etc.
Apparently you can get 330 bhp out of a normally aspirated RS engine - I think 930 Motorsport in the UK has done this. Maybe drop them an email. It may be cheaper/easier than the forced induction route.
Cheers
Domster
quote:
Hey Domster,
thanks for the info, I'm gonna write to those guys about the system on that car. Yeah,those seats look great but, I hear their like 3k/seat though. sounds like recaro race seats for me, the best ones in their line are about $700. U.S. and their on sale all the time. Do you know of any RUF turbo conversions out there ? 993,964 rct or btr?? speed.
I think theres a Ruf conversion in the Porsche for sale section.
Glad to see you're thinking of a 996, Walter - makes a lot of sense for you, and your requirements.
Get it in Silver, GT3 aero pack and LHD and I'll buy it off you when you've had enough of it!
Rgds
Domster
PS Yes, yellow bird replica is for sale, circa 30k GBP - lovely car, it took me back to my 'Fasczination' experiences. I take it you've driven the 'Ring on many occasions...?
PPS Have you driven an M Coupe? I only drove a small way in one, and wasn't fussed by the Roadster, but people reckon they are quite good. What about one of them instead of the SLK?
Get it in Silver, GT3 aero pack and LHD and I'll buy it off you when you've had enough of it!
Rgds
Domster
PS Yes, yellow bird replica is for sale, circa 30k GBP - lovely car, it took me back to my 'Fasczination' experiences. I take it you've driven the 'Ring on many occasions...?
PPS Have you driven an M Coupe? I only drove a small way in one, and wasn't fussed by the Roadster, but people reckon they are quite good. What about one of them instead of the SLK?
quote:
Glad to see you're thinking of a 996, Walter - makes a lot of sense for you, and your requirements.
Get it in Silver, GT3 aero pack and LHD and I'll buy it off you when you've had enough of it!
Rgds
Domster
PS Yes, yellow bird replica is for sale, circa 30k GBP - lovely car, it took me back to my 'Fasczination' experiences. I take it you've driven the 'Ring on many occasions...?
PPS Have you driven an M Coupe? I only drove a small way in one, and wasn't fussed by the Roadster, but people reckon they are quite good. What about one of them instead of the SLK?
silver, fine. GT3 kit? No, sorry, I don't want to appear flashy, and I'll have to hide the damned thing when I visit customers anyway.
It had to be a roadster, and I found the SLK 320 better than the M Roadster. Also, the SLK 320 is a completely different animal to the 200/230 SLK's. It is somewhere between a BoxSter and a BoxSter S.
I've had it now for 11 months, will hang on to it for at least another year. Be warned, if I buy a 996 it might well be a Cabrio.
The SLK 320 was cheap and cheerful, just right for finding out if I like roof-down motoring - and I love it!
Any views as to whether it is worth buying a Carrera 4 and losing all the performance and luggage space against a Carrera 2? After all, a rear-engined RWD Carrera 2 must have fantastic levels of grip anyway ...
Rgds, WalterU
Edited by WalterU on Thursday 17th January 18:18
Hey Domster,
the only reason I don't consider a 3.8 conversion for my RS is that it may not satisfy me. 320 - 330 hp doesn't interest me because my car now runs very well against them. What I'm looking for is a pretty good increase that I can really feel. with the way my car is set up, the 993's and 996's that I've come up against are shocked as I pull out of the corners and pull away. I have no interest in losing any of the performance I have but,we'll see. speed.
the only reason I don't consider a 3.8 conversion for my RS is that it may not satisfy me. 320 - 330 hp doesn't interest me because my car now runs very well against them. What I'm looking for is a pretty good increase that I can really feel. with the way my car is set up, the 993's and 996's that I've come up against are shocked as I pull out of the corners and pull away. I have no interest in losing any of the performance I have but,we'll see. speed.
Re Walter and his 996 - I've had a few cabriolets, so I see the appeal (especially hood down on a Summer night, which is quite magical), but I like the stiffness of coupes for a sports car. Open tops suit GTs, but then Walter needs a GT, and in effect, that is what the 996 Carrera is anyway. Much more luxurious and practical than the previous generation.
Interesting what Lee says re the C2 vs C4 - I have always been looking at 993s and 964s from a second hand perspective, and as an ownership experience the C2 is preferable as it holds its value better and is less complicated, so fractionally more reliable and cheaper to maintain. Also, some say that the balance and throttle adjustability of the 993 and 964 two wheel drive cars is much better.
I haven't driven a 996, so the dynamics may be much better for this model, and let's face it, reliability isn't so much an issue, if being new under warranty.
Re Speedracer's engine tuning - fair point, Speed, your best bet would be a supercharger, but for a *really* big hike you'll need to get a turbo lump and tune it. Apparently 400 bhp is common in Turbo 2s. It may be cheaper to buy a second hand engine and tune it out of the box (sell your existing engine or keep it as a spare) than convert your RS engine. A turbo conversion will probably be about 10,000 dollars or so, whereas I'm sure there are turbo engines out there in salvage yards for less. You may need to uprate a few other bits as well, gearbox, clutch, driveshafts etc, but then you may get away with it. Not sure, but bear it in mind.
Cheers all
Domster
Interesting what Lee says re the C2 vs C4 - I have always been looking at 993s and 964s from a second hand perspective, and as an ownership experience the C2 is preferable as it holds its value better and is less complicated, so fractionally more reliable and cheaper to maintain. Also, some say that the balance and throttle adjustability of the 993 and 964 two wheel drive cars is much better.
I haven't driven a 996, so the dynamics may be much better for this model, and let's face it, reliability isn't so much an issue, if being new under warranty.
Re Speedracer's engine tuning - fair point, Speed, your best bet would be a supercharger, but for a *really* big hike you'll need to get a turbo lump and tune it. Apparently 400 bhp is common in Turbo 2s. It may be cheaper to buy a second hand engine and tune it out of the box (sell your existing engine or keep it as a spare) than convert your RS engine. A turbo conversion will probably be about 10,000 dollars or so, whereas I'm sure there are turbo engines out there in salvage yards for less. You may need to uprate a few other bits as well, gearbox, clutch, driveshafts etc, but then you may get away with it. Not sure, but bear it in mind.
Cheers all
Domster
Hey Domster, I will check out the possible engines around and also my friend derek has just finished rebuilding his 79 3.3 turbo that is now a 3.5 twin plug and very big turbo. he won't tell me about the hp figures but, knowing him, its up there! he converted his car to a 5 speed but, he still uses the cis fuel system. I've gotta tell him about this site. thanks for the ideas and I will consider everything. I don't know anybodt with a supercharger ona 3.6 so, I have nothing use as a guide or help me to decide. I know I'm being greedy when I seek more power. The car runs very well but, I see the newer cars with so much more factory power that I feel I'm being left behind. you know !!! talk to ya later. speed.
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