One for the turbo boys
Discussion
If there is room ahead and someone wishes to pass I move over so unfortunately I am unable to answer. I remember the first time I saw a 993TT on the M25 giving it some. He was sat parallel next to me in the outside lane at 70mph. The guy obviously put it in third and mashed the hammer, as this thing just took off. The acceleration was astounding. It almost looked as if the car stretched, just like the USS Enterprise. Deeply impressive party trick.
(After talking to other enthusiasts about the various merits of TT v RS scenarios, one guy summed it all up quite well I thought; the RS is a nice sports car, but the TT is a true supercar, due to the vast differential in acceleration. Can't argue with that really).
(After talking to other enthusiasts about the various merits of TT v RS scenarios, one guy summed it all up quite well I thought; the RS is a nice sports car, but the TT is a true supercar, due to the vast differential in acceleration. Can't argue with that really).
Roadrunner said:
(After talking to other enthusiasts about the various merits of TT v RS scenarios, one guy summed it all up quite well I thought; the RS is a nice sports car, but the TT is a true supercar, due to the vast differential in acceleration. Can't argue with that really).
I would
I'd say the RS is a nice road going race car, whilst the TT is a nice road going luxury supercar.
After all, acceleration in itself doesn't just make a 'supercar'... which is why Bolt on Boy's 2.0 Calibra Turbo powered Nova (0-60 in 5.5 secs) is no supercar compared to a Ferrari 512 Berlinetta Boxer (7.2 secs according to this website www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.mv?file=car.mv&num=158).
Until you have driven both cars RR, you should keep your mind open. As superb as the TT is, it doesn't have the raw edge and spark of adrenalin tinged excitement that an RS can create in an instant...
Don't ask the people in the pub, go out and drive the damn things
That's why Ninja took the afternoon off to snoop around a Lamborghini showroom. You gotta admire a guy who bunks off work for that 
I have just bought a 993 C4 (non turbo) but had a 420 bhp Skyline R34 before that which was as quick as a Twin Turbo 911, but my car was in a mild state of tune relative to some of the other ones in NE Scotland that I knew which were outrageously fast with true 600 and 730 bhp!
The Skyline when properly mapped and modified is the one car that will humble any of the supercars.
I enjoyed mine but it was too tempying to keep upping power by major increments (and now that my sons are grown up, I wanted back to a 911 as this is my 4th after a 17 year absence).
The Skyline when properly mapped and modified is the one car that will humble any of the supercars.
I enjoyed mine but it was too tempying to keep upping power by major increments (and now that my sons are grown up, I wanted back to a 911 as this is my 4th after a 17 year absence).
Dom, your speaking out your RS again
Turbo's are about torque (acceleration), RS's are about lateral G
I would never bother trying to out corner an RS, nor would I expect to loose a drag race. Somewhere in the middle their paths cross
Personally, I find it much more satisfying (and sensible) to be able to have fun in a straight line (at about 3000 rpm, in every gear), rather than cornering on the limit. How many turbo owners have disturbed the badger population recently? Don't need to risk it, you see
Now it's exactly the reason above why, well to-do educated types, like myself, prefer a turbo, and pykie-lhd toe-rags like Dom prefer RS's
Chalk and cheese (smelly french stuff)
If you really care about 0.000001 of a second (or badger bating) get the RS. If you like distorting the torque-time-continuum strap a
great big KKK to your intake 
RR, I hope this helps...
Turbo's are about torque (acceleration), RS's are about lateral G
I would never bother trying to out corner an RS, nor would I expect to loose a drag race. Somewhere in the middle their paths cross
Personally, I find it much more satisfying (and sensible) to be able to have fun in a straight line (at about 3000 rpm, in every gear), rather than cornering on the limit. How many turbo owners have disturbed the badger population recently? Don't need to risk it, you see
Now it's exactly the reason above why, well to-do educated types, like myself, prefer a turbo, and pykie-lhd toe-rags like Dom prefer RS's
Chalk and cheese (smelly french stuff)
If you really care about 0.000001 of a second (or badger bating) get the RS. If you like distorting the torque-time-continuum strap a
great big KKK to your intake RR, I hope this helps...
Uv....I hear your points but why would you never try to out corner an RS ??
I realise you are 2wd mode so your advantage on the straights is much more apparent than on the twisties.
With respect to 993 & 996 TT...I feel they will corner as quickly (quicker) as an RS but not give that impression.Both TT are about how/did (?) that happen,,,the RS is about feel!
I realise you are 2wd mode so your advantage on the straights is much more apparent than on the twisties.
With respect to 993 & 996 TT...I feel they will corner as quickly (quicker) as an RS but not give that impression.Both TT are about how/did (?) that happen,,,the RS is about feel!
Howdy Paulus,
I think in practice, any of the uber Audis or Benz viggens would give a fright to the TTs ito straight line urgency. (As will the 2004 M5.)
Sort of related, EVO's latest shocking comparison pitched the much loathed Cayenne (Turbo) on some twisting road against the relatively lithe RS6 and the findings were seemingly against the laws of physics...
Indeed, the 'shed' did ok against a new EVO VIII round a track, too.
So 'the game' has moved on to the point where the standard rules of traditional (i.e. 308GTB versus Marina 1.3 Coupe) supercar engagement don't apply as readily.
If you were ambling along in your then all-conquering 993TT in 1995, even the sight (and sound!) of an errant F355 could've been overcome with little more than mild right ankle twitchery and probably no recourse to drop-cog...the executive classes were entirely cannon fodder to be picked off with impunity.
But not eight years on...
A plethora of exceedingly hot saloons has made dominant life in the fast lane very much a case of watching the gear changes and ensuring fluffs 'r' hopefully not us...get it wrong against a smooth-shifting CL65 AMG - even in Ferdy's latest range toppers - and you will be very much a casualty of autobahn war.
Frankly, even if you DO get it all Plato perfect, you'll need at least 550 of the most well trained Viennese thoroughbreds at your command to triumph in such tussles.
In truth, the twisties are a different matter but, I suspect, more for the very experienced driver anyway.
What has been said about the Skylines is quite correct; these are the most lethal useable road weapons given sufficient boost: even a 'mere' 600 bhp GTR-V Spec has few, if any predators.
So Paul, whilst the TT is still in the top echelon of schnellhausen lane thuggerists, the rear view mirror now IS relevant. The only way to make it thoroughly redundant once more, is to speak to a chap called Uwe...
Chin, chin.
I think in practice, any of the uber Audis or Benz viggens would give a fright to the TTs ito straight line urgency. (As will the 2004 M5.)
Sort of related, EVO's latest shocking comparison pitched the much loathed Cayenne (Turbo) on some twisting road against the relatively lithe RS6 and the findings were seemingly against the laws of physics...
Indeed, the 'shed' did ok against a new EVO VIII round a track, too.
So 'the game' has moved on to the point where the standard rules of traditional (i.e. 308GTB versus Marina 1.3 Coupe) supercar engagement don't apply as readily.
If you were ambling along in your then all-conquering 993TT in 1995, even the sight (and sound!) of an errant F355 could've been overcome with little more than mild right ankle twitchery and probably no recourse to drop-cog...the executive classes were entirely cannon fodder to be picked off with impunity.
But not eight years on...
A plethora of exceedingly hot saloons has made dominant life in the fast lane very much a case of watching the gear changes and ensuring fluffs 'r' hopefully not us...get it wrong against a smooth-shifting CL65 AMG - even in Ferdy's latest range toppers - and you will be very much a casualty of autobahn war.
Frankly, even if you DO get it all Plato perfect, you'll need at least 550 of the most well trained Viennese thoroughbreds at your command to triumph in such tussles.
In truth, the twisties are a different matter but, I suspect, more for the very experienced driver anyway.
What has been said about the Skylines is quite correct; these are the most lethal useable road weapons given sufficient boost: even a 'mere' 600 bhp GTR-V Spec has few, if any predators.
So Paul, whilst the TT is still in the top echelon of schnellhausen lane thuggerists, the rear view mirror now IS relevant. The only way to make it thoroughly redundant once more, is to speak to a chap called Uwe...
Chin, chin.
UV, that was a superb post - very helpful, if a little technical at times.De, It's damn irritating that the supremacy of the TT even comes into question these days. It's just not on. It seems you have to be a member of the 500 club just to keep above the water. Did you notice on the 'front page' of PH, there is a 500bhp Seat coming out. A bloody SEAT!! WTF?!! That is a depressing thought.
I wonder how far Porsche is prepared to go to ward off these commoners? They had better instal 600 ponies or it'll be an utter waste of time wheeling it out of the factory doors. I really hope they don't rely on the overpriced boxter GT to wave the flag for our struggling TT. If the 997TT is to be of questionable poke, then a cheap 996TT and 8k in G-Forces's hand will see 550 reasons not to bother with it.
I wonder how far Porsche is prepared to go to ward off these commoners? They had better instal 600 ponies or it'll be an utter waste of time wheeling it out of the factory doors. I really hope they don't rely on the overpriced boxter GT to wave the flag for our struggling TT. If the 997TT is to be of questionable poke, then a cheap 996TT and 8k in G-Forces's hand will see 550 reasons not to bother with it.
Domster, I AM TOTALLY open minded about the RS v TT situation. I would actually love both.
Trouble is, I've just finished reading an article comparing the GT2 and TT, both pushing out 550 big ones. It really get's me thinking about the need for absolute power. If you really wanted to, then I guess the addition of a caterfield or xtr2, for about 10k, would compliment the TT nicely. Thus removing the RS from the equation all together. That would be a fine garage wouldn't it. It does seem power corrupts. Even reading juicy road tests about it too!
Btw, I think your wrong about acceleration not being a fundamental requirement of a supercar. The elise is a fine sports car around the corners, just like the RS, but as every Top Trump player knows the elise is no supercar.
For me a supercar has to have all bases covered: massive acceleration, cornering prowess, fine interior, sexy shape, exclusivity - which can only be brought about by high price, plus it must sound good. Lot's of fine sports cars cover some of those areas, but only those that have it all will attain supercar status.
Therefore, I stick my neck out and state: the 911 Turbo is a true supercar, whilst The RS is one of the worlds greatest sportscars.
>> Edited by Roadrunner on Saturday 26th April 11:17
Trouble is, I've just finished reading an article comparing the GT2 and TT, both pushing out 550 big ones. It really get's me thinking about the need for absolute power. If you really wanted to, then I guess the addition of a caterfield or xtr2, for about 10k, would compliment the TT nicely. Thus removing the RS from the equation all together. That would be a fine garage wouldn't it. It does seem power corrupts. Even reading juicy road tests about it too!
Btw, I think your wrong about acceleration not being a fundamental requirement of a supercar. The elise is a fine sports car around the corners, just like the RS, but as every Top Trump player knows the elise is no supercar.
For me a supercar has to have all bases covered: massive acceleration, cornering prowess, fine interior, sexy shape, exclusivity - which can only be brought about by high price, plus it must sound good. Lot's of fine sports cars cover some of those areas, but only those that have it all will attain supercar status.
Therefore, I stick my neck out and state: the 911 Turbo is a true supercar, whilst The RS is one of the worlds greatest sportscars.
>> Edited by Roadrunner on Saturday 26th April 11:17
You're sort of bang on the money there, Paul.
I remember when I first ventured out in the 993TT and continually bouncing off the rev limiter at just under 7000 - very, very annoying - especially when fending off some pesky try it on merchant or other.
Despite this, I recall a latenight, rainswept surge against a 996 Carrera being a satisfying first escapade...
Later on, though, it became apparent that against the army of increasingly hostile performance cars that jostle for traffic light supremacy, 408 bhp just wasn't in the 'nuke 'em high' zone any more...
I've said many times on PH that the memory of the Cerbera 4.5's explosive forays above 140 lingers heavily in my subconscious - that was and still is one helluva monster, a genuine beast amongst cars ubiquitously titled so.
And yet with the current set-up, having got used to the additional 20% power hike, you do feel invincible on the straights...having heard about the G-Force 996TT mod putting out 550 bhp, though, maybe it is time to move on?
For me personally, I think any future uber pork progress would probably lie via the GTR600 set-up from Gemballa...hopefully just treading the fine line between plain daft thrust and some driver adjustability/feel. And traction retention, too!
The GTR750 EVO is too insane and anyway, one could spend the difference on psychiatric help.
I remember when I first ventured out in the 993TT and continually bouncing off the rev limiter at just under 7000 - very, very annoying - especially when fending off some pesky try it on merchant or other.
Despite this, I recall a latenight, rainswept surge against a 996 Carrera being a satisfying first escapade...
Later on, though, it became apparent that against the army of increasingly hostile performance cars that jostle for traffic light supremacy, 408 bhp just wasn't in the 'nuke 'em high' zone any more...
I've said many times on PH that the memory of the Cerbera 4.5's explosive forays above 140 lingers heavily in my subconscious - that was and still is one helluva monster, a genuine beast amongst cars ubiquitously titled so.
And yet with the current set-up, having got used to the additional 20% power hike, you do feel invincible on the straights...having heard about the G-Force 996TT mod putting out 550 bhp, though, maybe it is time to move on?
For me personally, I think any future uber pork progress would probably lie via the GTR600 set-up from Gemballa...hopefully just treading the fine line between plain daft thrust and some driver adjustability/feel. And traction retention, too!
The GTR750 EVO is too insane and anyway, one could spend the difference on psychiatric help.
Roadrunner said: Yep, that 750 evo must be right on the limit. Almost venturing near to the realms of TVR style ownership I expect. I agree that 600 has a nice ring to it. Best to keep on the safe side too.
Wasn't it you, Paul (or the fringemeister central himself, Shubert von Domster), who told me about some deranged Israeli bloke who had an 1100 bhp 911?
Still, if you watch the last Clarkson video, he pilots a 1000 bhp Skyline which seems to have been both reliable & driveable.
Guess it's all down to how the power is delivered/transmitted plus the effect of lag. Call me a wuss but if 600bhp isn't enough then perhaps a change of obsession is needed!
Exactly! I've been looking into high end hi-fi recently, if you want a new obsession. Let me know if you have any questions and I'll enlighten you to the joys of Mark Levinson and Krell.
I imagine you'd be luck to see 30mpg when toting 600 gee gee's too. I expect 5 might be nearer the mark, unfortunately. There's a line in the sand somewhere between 500 and 600, unless your an Arab.
Yep, that was me with the 1100 tale. That was from 9M btw.
I imagine you'd be luck to see 30mpg when toting 600 gee gee's too. I expect 5 might be nearer the mark, unfortunately. There's a line in the sand somewhere between 500 and 600, unless your an Arab.
Yep, that was me with the 1100 tale. That was from 9M btw.
LOL, good points from all once again - but there are two fundamental things I would like to reiterate as they are in danger of being lost:
1) Acceleration does not in itself make a supercar (IMHO) and vice versa. Would you not consider the Ferrari 512 BB a supercar, just because it can reach 187 mph but struggles to 60? You must look at the overall package and the 'je ne sais quois'... the 993 Turbo always sufferred from journalists saying 'ah, but it isn't a proper supercar' when they lined it up against Ferrari 456s and Jag XJ220s, even though it whipped plenty 'supercar' hides! This is a tad unfair, as although the 993tt didn't have that traditional supercar drama to look at (ie it resembled the beetle buggies coming out of Stutt for the previous 35 years) I would give it membership as the 911 is a classic design (like Dualit Toasters - an analogy for Nightmare) and had all round humbling performance.
2) 993RSs are all about feel, and for me, it is the visceral side of things that tweak my glands and nodes into recognising supercardom. That can include a massive dollop of acceleration to stimulate the adrenal gland, but may just be something else... for example, I drove a BMW M1 and with 286bhp it is no rocket ship compared to modern day stuff... but what a car! Truest supercar I think I've driven so far - certainly more so than a Ferrari 355. Maybe it was just those black slats on the rear canopy that did it... Or the sound it made As UV says, the RSs are made for corners and that is where the thrills and spills are to be had.
Maybe I place too much importance on what I have seen on the track... At Goodwood, I have seen an XJ220 lapping and it looked like a Nova would eat it up and spit it out! Not much drama at all. Not quick, sounded rubbish, rolled too much. It went down in my estimation whilst it went up on the wall as an Athena poster in teenage boys bedrooms. Saw a Lotus Carlton go around Donington, which had the four wheel supercar tag. Crap. Why I bought one I'll never know And then a few months ago I saw a very useful driver spank the RS off a 993RS around Goodwood. Jeez - that was an aggressive and awesome machine in action. You almost felt pity for the Diablo lapping simultaneously...
So, maybe it is supercars for the king's road, and 'sports cars' for the race track. (I wouldn't call it a sports car as my mind thinks of Mazda MX5s and MGFs! - prefer road going track car or semi race car). If that means I am a pikey who prefers crumbling tarmac on forgotten airfields to the King's Rd, then so be it - at least that fits in with UV's analogy
However, all that flashiness and obsession with top speeds and infinitessinal power outputs went out of the window with my Top Trumps and Countach duvet cover set. Last year. And since then, when I realised that a 180mph Lotus Carlton was a bit of an imposter and cost me a fortune to run; when I drove a 355 and was impressed by the build more than the acceleration; when I experienced big HP 911 Turbos and found thema bit dull; I have been looking for something else. I don't want to lose teh acceleration or the top speed as some of me is still clinging to the Countach duvet cover. But I need to live with my supercar and take it on track without fear of humiliation.
I am off to Spain today, so this will be my last post for a few days at least. I look forward to this thread having wandered off into the realm of top trumps when I return
PS DAZ and sb930 will still be keeping an eye on you, and I'm sure the RS posse will defend the realm on my behalf if necessary
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Saturday 26th April 12:04
1) Acceleration does not in itself make a supercar (IMHO) and vice versa. Would you not consider the Ferrari 512 BB a supercar, just because it can reach 187 mph but struggles to 60? You must look at the overall package and the 'je ne sais quois'... the 993 Turbo always sufferred from journalists saying 'ah, but it isn't a proper supercar' when they lined it up against Ferrari 456s and Jag XJ220s, even though it whipped plenty 'supercar' hides! This is a tad unfair, as although the 993tt didn't have that traditional supercar drama to look at (ie it resembled the beetle buggies coming out of Stutt for the previous 35 years) I would give it membership as the 911 is a classic design (like Dualit Toasters - an analogy for Nightmare
) and had all round humbling performance. 2) 993RSs are all about feel, and for me, it is the visceral side of things that tweak my glands and nodes into recognising supercardom. That can include a massive dollop of acceleration to stimulate the adrenal gland, but may just be something else... for example, I drove a BMW M1 and with 286bhp it is no rocket ship compared to modern day stuff... but what a car! Truest supercar I think I've driven so far - certainly more so than a Ferrari 355. Maybe it was just those black slats on the rear canopy that did it... Or the sound it made
As UV says, the RSs are made for corners and that is where the thrills and spills are to be had. Maybe I place too much importance on what I have seen on the track... At Goodwood, I have seen an XJ220 lapping and it looked like a Nova would eat it up and spit it out! Not much drama at all. Not quick, sounded rubbish, rolled too much. It went down in my estimation whilst it went up on the wall as an Athena poster in teenage boys bedrooms. Saw a Lotus Carlton go around Donington, which had the four wheel supercar tag. Crap. Why I bought one I'll never know
And then a few months ago I saw a very useful driver spank the RS off a 993RS around Goodwood. Jeez - that was an aggressive and awesome machine in action. You almost felt pity for the Diablo lapping simultaneously... So, maybe it is supercars for the king's road, and 'sports cars' for the race track. (I wouldn't call it a sports car as my mind thinks of Mazda MX5s and MGFs! - prefer road going track car or semi race car). If that means I am a pikey who prefers crumbling tarmac on forgotten airfields to the King's Rd, then so be it - at least that fits in with UV's analogy
However, all that flashiness and obsession with top speeds and infinitessinal power outputs went out of the window with my Top Trumps and Countach duvet cover set. Last year. And since then, when I realised that a 180mph Lotus Carlton was a bit of an imposter and cost me a fortune to run; when I drove a 355 and was impressed by the build more than the acceleration; when I experienced big HP 911 Turbos and found thema bit dull; I have been looking for something else. I don't want to lose teh acceleration or the top speed as some of me is still clinging to the Countach duvet cover. But I need to live with my supercar and take it on track without fear of humiliation.
I am off to Spain today, so this will be my last post for a few days at least. I look forward to this thread having wandered off into the realm of top trumps when I return
PS DAZ and sb930 will still be keeping an eye on you, and I'm sure the RS posse will defend the realm on my behalf if necessary
>> Edited by domster (moderator) on Saturday 26th April 12:04
Thanks, Paul: I knew it was from someone quite unstable .
Btw, Mark Levinson does the system in my barge and jolly nice it is too.
But electronics like Krell's legendary KSA-200 power amp, mated to some obscenely revealing Apoggee Scintalla ribbon speakers and the days of fantasising over tri-amping with tens of thousands of pounds worth of mono-bloc, outrageously heat-sinked industrial aesthetics are thankfully well behind me. I no longer possess the requisite facial hair nor questionable woolly sweater. And I have never been a fan of slightly warm, vaguely fermented moonshine.
Stick to the jelly moulds; far, far more rewarding.
. Btw, Mark Levinson does the system in my barge and jolly nice it is too.
But electronics like Krell's legendary KSA-200 power amp, mated to some obscenely revealing Apoggee Scintalla ribbon speakers and the days of fantasising over tri-amping with tens of thousands of pounds worth of mono-bloc, outrageously heat-sinked industrial aesthetics are thankfully well behind me. I no longer possess the requisite facial hair nor questionable woolly sweater. And I have never been a fan of slightly warm, vaguely fermented moonshine.
Stick to the jelly moulds; far, far more rewarding.
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