Anyone heard of SystemST - PCCB alternative
Discussion
gfreeman said:
The fixings between the bells and the discs look similar to the Alcon fixings, which after time allowed a lot of movement (Steve Merritt's discs showed a huge amount of movement) due to either wearing of the pins or oversizing of the holes.
The Performance Friction fixings look to be a different league to the Alcons, with a greater number of pins and a spring clip device for each pair of fixings, restricting any movement which causes the wear.
I trust this outfit knows the engineering involved with the bell to disc connection.
You would have thought Alcon and Brembo would have vast experience with engineering two-piece rotors but it took Alcon a couple of goes! Do Brembo's still exhibit a slight death rattle???.
I have alcons and have no movement. How long did Steve's take to wear and are you sure they were alcons and not brembos? The ones I have are very high quality allen key fastenings. The cross headed porsche ones are indeed a nightmare to undo as the fixings get bent due to the loads requiring a lot of force to release.The Performance Friction fixings look to be a different league to the Alcons, with a greater number of pins and a spring clip device for each pair of fixings, restricting any movement which causes the wear.
I trust this outfit knows the engineering involved with the bell to disc connection.
You would have thought Alcon and Brembo would have vast experience with engineering two-piece rotors but it took Alcon a couple of goes! Do Brembo's still exhibit a slight death rattle???.
DanH said:
gfreeman said:
The fixings between the bells and the discs look similar to the Alcon fixings, which after time allowed a lot of movement (Steve Merritt's discs showed a huge amount of movement) due to either wearing of the pins or oversizing of the holes.
The Performance Friction fixings look to be a different league to the Alcons, with a greater number of pins and a spring clip device for each pair of fixings, restricting any movement which causes the wear.
I trust this outfit knows the engineering involved with the bell to disc connection.
You would have thought Alcon and Brembo would have vast experience with engineering two-piece rotors but it took Alcon a couple of goes! Do Brembo's still exhibit a slight death rattle???.
I have alcons and have no movement. How long did Steve's take to wear and are you sure they were alcons and not brembos? The ones I have are very high quality allen key fastenings. The cross headed porsche ones are indeed a nightmare to undo as the fixings get bent due to the loads requiring a lot of force to release.The Performance Friction fixings look to be a different league to the Alcons, with a greater number of pins and a spring clip device for each pair of fixings, restricting any movement which causes the wear.
I trust this outfit knows the engineering involved with the bell to disc connection.
You would have thought Alcon and Brembo would have vast experience with engineering two-piece rotors but it took Alcon a couple of goes! Do Brembo's still exhibit a slight death rattle???.
It was pointed out to me (by a brake specialist) that the threaded section of the bobbin (where the securing screw protrudes) is actually crimped to gain a locking effect.................. Little wonder you had problems removing yours ! mine had been off previously for disc replacement, hence they flew out.
Picture attached with crimped "flats" highlighted. Click on it a couple of times to get it full size
Edited by Slippydiff on Tuesday 18th September 19:58
gfreeman said:
The fixings between the bells and the discs look similar to the Alcon fixings, which after time allowed a lot of movement (Steve Merritt's discs showed a huge amount of movement) due to either wearing of the pins or oversizing of the holes.
Are the bells you mention aluminium or steel ?gfreeman said:
I trust this outfit knows the engineering involved with the bell to disc connection.
ST supply the carbon ceramic option discs (and bells) for the Koenigsegg..............gfreeman said:
You would have thought Alcon and Brembo would have vast experience with engineering two-piece rotors but it took Alcon a couple of goes! Do Brembo's still exhibit a slight death rattle???.
Indeed you would, but engineeering a component to work for thousands of miles on the road with the associated (relative)lack of maintainance and inspection (hence the original PCCB bells and bobbins are manufactured in stainless steel) and engineering the same component for a race car which will be inspected for damage and wear after every race (and thrown away if out of tolerance) and where noise during operation or when cold isn't an issue, require two very different engineering approaches !Edited by Slippydiff on Tuesday 18th September 20:13
Slippydiff said:
Not the case actually Dan. I posted on this topic on Rennlist as I was told the bobbins get water in the open end and thus the threads corrode (I seem to recall some mention was made of thread locking compound being applied too ?)
Nah I undid my own and the fastenings were subtly bent due to the motion of the disk against the hat under breaking. I actually broke 3 screwdrivers undoing the rubbish cross head screws. Allen bolts on the alcons are much easier. Especially when the correct fastening force is only about 20nm with some thread lock anyway. Of course getting them undone will be another matter but at least allen keys are less likely to break.Steve Merritts discs were 1st generation Alcons, like mine.
He mentioned in a post a while back that with the wheel off you could lift the disc several mm. When I checked mine he was right! The assembly was scrap (not that replacement discs were available for 1st gen anyway). Has anyone experience of what the wear is like on second generation Alcon or Brembo components?
If the Porsche disc/hat bends the fixings it shows that the movement in both Alcon Gen 1 and Porsche items are wearing out components.
Hopefully, for the steel disc set up, the wear will be in the pins or the mounting holes in the disc and should last longer than the life of the disc itself. Otherwise after a while the hat is scrap as well.
Looking at the pics the Porsche fixing allows the assembly to expand and for each part to slide against the other as it heats up, which should minimise wear.
I guess another wear factor is probably the amount of road use where the bits all run at lower temps and are therefore looser than a track only car, when cold braking is at a minimum.
He mentioned in a post a while back that with the wheel off you could lift the disc several mm. When I checked mine he was right! The assembly was scrap (not that replacement discs were available for 1st gen anyway). Has anyone experience of what the wear is like on second generation Alcon or Brembo components?
If the Porsche disc/hat bends the fixings it shows that the movement in both Alcon Gen 1 and Porsche items are wearing out components.
Hopefully, for the steel disc set up, the wear will be in the pins or the mounting holes in the disc and should last longer than the life of the disc itself. Otherwise after a while the hat is scrap as well.
Looking at the pics the Porsche fixing allows the assembly to expand and for each part to slide against the other as it heats up, which should minimise wear.
I guess another wear factor is probably the amount of road use where the bits all run at lower temps and are therefore looser than a track only car, when cold braking is at a minimum.
gfreeman said:
Steve Merritts discs were 1st generation Alcons, like mine.
He mentioned in a post a while back that with the wheel off you could lift the disc several mm. When I checked mine he was right! The assembly was scrap (not that replacement discs were available for 1st gen anyway). Has anyone experience of what the wear is like on second generation Alcon or Brembo components?
If the Porsche disc/hat bends the fixings it shows that the movement in both Alcon Gen 1 and Porsche items are wearing out components.
Hopefully, for the steel disc set up, the wear will be in the pins or the mounting holes in the disc and should last longer than the life of the disc itself. Otherwise after a while the hat is scrap as well.
Looking at the pics the Porsche fixing allows the assembly to expand and for each part to slide against the other as it heats up, which should minimise wear.
I guess another wear factor is probably the amount of road use where the bits all run at lower temps and are therefore looser than a track only car, when cold braking is at a minimum.
My 2nd gen alcons (first gen had problems fitting to the hubs without a hammer too I think?) have lasted fine for 18 months although I need to watch them now as they have a fair amount of surface cracking. No rattles or anything so far although I don't doubt that the mounting fastenings have taken a hammering and will require renewing with new disks. I don't think the OEM Porsche fastenings are even available separately as Porsche treat the hats+rotors+fastenings on a ceramic as a single replacement part which they will refurb themselves.He mentioned in a post a while back that with the wheel off you could lift the disc several mm. When I checked mine he was right! The assembly was scrap (not that replacement discs were available for 1st gen anyway). Has anyone experience of what the wear is like on second generation Alcon or Brembo components?
If the Porsche disc/hat bends the fixings it shows that the movement in both Alcon Gen 1 and Porsche items are wearing out components.
Hopefully, for the steel disc set up, the wear will be in the pins or the mounting holes in the disc and should last longer than the life of the disc itself. Otherwise after a while the hat is scrap as well.
Looking at the pics the Porsche fixing allows the assembly to expand and for each part to slide against the other as it heats up, which should minimise wear.
I guess another wear factor is probably the amount of road use where the bits all run at lower temps and are therefore looser than a track only car, when cold braking is at a minimum.
gfreeman said:
Steve Merritts discs were 1st generation Alcons, like mine.
He mentioned in a post a while back that with the wheel off you could lift the disc several mm. When I checked mine he was right! The assembly was scrap (not that replacement discs were available for 1st gen anyway). Has anyone experience of what the wear is like on second generation Alcon or Brembo components?
If the Porsche disc/hat bends the fixings it shows that the movement in both Alcon Gen 1 and Porsche items are wearing out components.
Hopefully, for the steel disc set up, the wear will be in the pins or the mounting holes in the disc and should last longer than the life of the disc itself. Otherwise after a while the hat is scrap as well.
Looking at the pics the Porsche fixing allows the assembly to expand and for each part to slide against the other as it heats up, which should minimise wear.
I guess another wear factor is probably the amount of road use where the bits all run at lower temps and are therefore looser than a track only car, when cold braking is at a minimum.
Dan's comments about the pins bending are the first I've heard of the problem. The PCCBs on my car had been replaced under "goodwill" once previously (not sure if that means the whole bell, disc, bobbins and bolts or just the ceramic disc itself) but when I stripped them down they came apart easily (the screws were tight admittedly, but nothing a small pair of mole grips on their heads wouldn't shift (tip for you there Dan........ He mentioned in a post a while back that with the wheel off you could lift the disc several mm. When I checked mine he was right! The assembly was scrap (not that replacement discs were available for 1st gen anyway). Has anyone experience of what the wear is like on second generation Alcon or Brembo components?
If the Porsche disc/hat bends the fixings it shows that the movement in both Alcon Gen 1 and Porsche items are wearing out components.
Hopefully, for the steel disc set up, the wear will be in the pins or the mounting holes in the disc and should last longer than the life of the disc itself. Otherwise after a while the hat is scrap as well.
Looking at the pics the Porsche fixing allows the assembly to expand and for each part to slide against the other as it heats up, which should minimise wear.
I guess another wear factor is probably the amount of road use where the bits all run at lower temps and are therefore looser than a track only car, when cold braking is at a minimum.
)I'm at a loss to understand how some of Dans bolts were bent but not others (or was this as a result of your struggling to get them undone Dan ? )
Either way the standard Porsche PCCB floating set up seems to be exceptionally well engineered and provides quiet and maintenance free running without resorting to the complication of springs(Brembo) or the admittedly clever Performance Friction mounting set up.
I'm guessing that the Porsche design was primarily aimed at road use, hence it being produced in corrosion proof stainless steel. On the other hand the Alcon and Brembo mounting arrangements appear to be competition designs modified to make them road useable.
Slippydiff,
To be honest I didn't consider it that carefully when dismantling, but they were a nightmare to undo. Maybe they got bent whilst we were unscrewing them /shrug. It was only a subtle curvature though.
I think the difference with the OEM ceramics is they have no float engineered in, which I guess is fine with ceramic as it probably doesn't expand when hot. The alcons and brembos have a certain amount of float (actually not sure if the alcons do?) which is why we get the rattles etc. Anyway the alcon mounting hardware is very good quality so no complaints there.
To be honest I didn't consider it that carefully when dismantling, but they were a nightmare to undo. Maybe they got bent whilst we were unscrewing them /shrug. It was only a subtle curvature though.
I think the difference with the OEM ceramics is they have no float engineered in, which I guess is fine with ceramic as it probably doesn't expand when hot. The alcons and brembos have a certain amount of float (actually not sure if the alcons do?) which is why we get the rattles etc. Anyway the alcon mounting hardware is very good quality so no complaints there.
Anyone looked at the AP solution? They engineer the float in a similar way and use bobbins but they float in the disc, not the bell.
I have no experience of them on a road car but I have used them for years on the race car without problems. You can buy bobbins with a different amount of float to suit the application.
Must say, I prefer AP over Brembo or Alcan but I have just fitted a set of Performance Friction discs and bells on a customer race GT3 and am impressed. Its too early to say how they will last as it has only had one outing.
Just my 2 penny worth!
Cheers,
Richard.
I have no experience of them on a road car but I have used them for years on the race car without problems. You can buy bobbins with a different amount of float to suit the application.
Must say, I prefer AP over Brembo or Alcan but I have just fitted a set of Performance Friction discs and bells on a customer race GT3 and am impressed. Its too early to say how they will last as it has only had one outing.
Just my 2 penny worth!
Cheers,
Richard.
cableguy said:
Any updates on the SystemST PCCB alternative Slippydiff?
C.
Development has been somewhat hampered by the addition of a new toy to the fleet !C.
Thus the GT2 is on the market and the ST discs will be transferred over to the latest addition in due course.
ST are currently in the process of sourcing a pad material that has more initial "bite" as whilst the standard PCCB pads stop the car well, they can feel a bit "wooden" in their response.
Some good news for the trackday junkies amongst you ; ST have carried out some dyno tests using the RS29 Pagids (I took off the car when I put the ST discs on)
It seems their ceramic discs are entirely compatible with the RS 29s and gave excellent and stable CoE readings at high temperatures.
Updates to follow.
Slippydiff said:
cableguy said:
Any updates on the SystemST PCCB alternative Slippydiff?
C.
Development has been somewhat hampered by the addition of a new toy to the fleet !C.
Thus the GT2 is on the market and the ST discs will be transferred over to the latest addition in due course.
ST are currently in the process of sourcing a pad material that has more initial "bite" as whilst the standard PCCB pads stop the car well, they can feel a bit "wooden" in their response.
Some good news for the trackday junkies amongst you ; ST have carried out some dyno tests using the RS29 Pagids (I took off the car when I put the ST discs on)
It seems their ceramic discs are entirely compatible with the RS 29s and gave excellent and stable CoE readings at high temperatures.
Updates to follow.
Anyway this is all very interesting, although I think I'll be waiting for a significant price drop and more guinea pigs before stepping up. On the plus side I've decided to remount my PCCBs which are near virginal once my alcons wear out. Don't see the point in boxing them although I guess there is a temptation to sell them for a few k
DanH said:
Slippydiff said:
cableguy said:
Any updates on the SystemST PCCB alternative Slippydiff?
C.
Development has been somewhat hampered by the addition of a new toy to the fleet !C.
Thus the GT2 is on the market and the ST discs will be transferred over to the latest addition in due course.
ST are currently in the process of sourcing a pad material that has more initial "bite" as whilst the standard PCCB pads stop the car well, they can feel a bit "wooden" in their response.
Some good news for the trackday junkies amongst you ; ST have carried out some dyno tests using the RS29 Pagids (I took off the car when I put the ST discs on)
It seems their ceramic discs are entirely compatible with the RS 29s and gave excellent and stable CoE readings at high temperatures.
Updates to follow.
Anyway this is all very interesting, although I think I'll be waiting for a significant price drop and more guinea pigs before stepping up. On the plus side I've decided to remount my PCCBs which are near virginal once my alcons wear out. Don't see the point in boxing them although I guess there is a temptation to sell them for a few k
Clearly ST can dish out a lot more "abuse" on the brake dyno than any amount of trackday use, if they're happy with the results then a step is being made in the right direction (with the added bonus that IF there was any surface degredation, you at least have the option to machine the faces to return them back to a useable state)
As regards your putting the PCCBs back on the RS, do you fancy a swap of my "ex-GT2" front Alcons for your front PCCBs ?
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