996 GT2 brakes and suspension, a salutary tale..............
Discussion
Best make yourself a brew and pull up a chair, this may take some time .................
Note to Mods. Apologies for the massive length of this post.
I’ve singled out one company in particular (which I have used successfully on several occasions in the past) as I feel they’ve failed to provide me with the standard of service (and professionalism) I would have expected.
If you feel my "attack" on them specifically breaks the N & S rules of the Forum, please feel free to edit as you deem necessary.
And so to the gory details .............
As many of you will be aware, last November I sold my wonderful Zanzibar MK 1 GT3, my pain was eased somewhat by the purchase of a stunning and totally unmolested Midnight Blue GT2 the very same day !
What followed over the next ten months has been a time consuming, frustrating (and on a couple of occasions) downright dangerous experience.
The GT2 was bought privately and was located near Marlborough (I live in N.Wales)
I arrived to view the car at 9.15pm on a dark and bitterly cold November night.
I viewed the car indoors, and having inspected it, I went on to check all the paperwork to establish all was in order.
Having checked all the documentation I decided that a test drive on narrow, dark, slippery and unfamiliar roads would serve little or no purpose……………..I openly admit with hindsight that I committed a cardinal mistake by not test driving the car.
I was however pacified somewhat by the fact that the owner was more than happy for me to have the car inspected at OPC Swindon to establish the condition of the PCCB brakes and to road test the car to ensure the transmission didn’t jump out of second gear.
As I wanted to get a Porsche warranty on the car, I was sure that the OPC would thoroughly road test the vehicle as part of the 111 point check required to issue said warranty.
Unfortunately when the owner tried to book the car in for its inspection at Swindon OPC they were too busy, The car was thus booked in at Reading………………
Reading carried out their inspection of the car and verbally gave the brakes and transmission a clean bill of health.
They also issued a warranty on the vehicle after a couple of small snags had been addressed.
I drove the car home and immediately had concerns over the efficiency of the brakes. I have documented my findings elsewhere on this forum http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
The next time I used the car was for 120 mile round trip. It was during this drive that I noticed the cars tendency to pull to the left.
This didn’t bother me as my GT3 displayed similar traits when I first purchased it and once the geometry had been set up it handled perfectly.
The brakes continued to give me cause for concern and I thus rang one of the leading Porsche Independants who are well versed in all things GT2 /3.
They were forthright and said that from the description I’d given him the PCCBs were unserviceable. They recommended the fitment of a pair of Alcon fully floating discs to the front of the car as the minimum step to restoring braking efficiency.
I thus booked the car in for the brake conversion using standard Pagid/Porsche P90 GT3 front pads and a full geometry check/alignment.
I delivered the car and specifically requested the cars geometry be set up for road use.
I waited whilst the brakes and suspension geometry were attended to, and looked forward to driving the car home with brakes that worked and suspension correctly aligned to rectify the steering pull.
What I actually got to drive home in was a car with camber settings more akin to a race car.
It proved well nigh impossible to keep the car pointing in a straight line as the tyres followed every camber and tramlined noticeably.
The brakes were an improvement (but as documented here :- http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0... things started to go astray with them before long……….)
I rang the company that had carried out the work and informed them I was somewhat displeased with the results of the wheel alignment they’d carried out.
They offered to have the car back to adjust the geometry settings to something more “user friendly”
Unfortunately in between booking the car in and actually taking it there, I hit a badger at high speed, which did little to improve the cars already wayward tendencies……….
I took the car back down to the company (a 340 mile round trip, a minimum of £75 worth of fuel and a day lost)
I was entirely open with the company in question and admitted that I’d hit the badger and clearly re-arranged the geometry settings on the N/S/F of the car.
They agreed to adjust the geometry to a fast road set up rather than the out an out track set up they’d clearly applied at their first attempt.
Four hours later the car appeared and I was given a bill for £50 +vat for the realignment required as a result of my “badger termination incident”
The drive home, whilst an improvement on the previous set up, left me feeling there was something still not quite "right" with the car.
Having been in contact with a fellow GT2 owner from this forum previously, I contacted him with my concerns.
He suggested I take my car to Andy at Fearnsport as he’d found him excellent in addressing some issues he’d had with his car.
I duly contacted Andy and arranged to take the car down to Silverstone for him to drive and assess the suspension and brakes on the car.
By now the brakes were nearly as inefficient as the unserviceable PCCBs and thus I asked Andy what the best way forward was to sort the issue out once and for all.
Andy test drove the car and commented it was clearly badly set up and thus handled accordingly………..
The car was subsequently booked in for a full geometry adjustment to include corner weights and ride height adjustment.
At the same time Andy commented it was impossible to deploy all the cars power because there was a problem with the rear end of the car steering itself under power.
Andy thus suggested that the fitment of Cup toe links to tighten things up at the rear of the car and make it more consistent and easier to use.
As regards the brake situation I did some research on Rennlist, the results of which indicated that the 997 Turbo or 997 GT3 steel rear discs were 350mm diameter and would thus be a straight swap for the unserviceable PCCBs on the rear of the car.
The company that had previously supplied me with the Alcon discs told me the steel conversion was fully compatible with the original PCCBs on the rear. (subsequent conversations with various other specialists would tend to indicate this isn’t the case)
Andy suggested the use of Pagid RS 29 pads front and rear as he felt the aggressively hooked Alcon discs were not readily compatible with the standard OPC GT3 P90 pads.
A couple of weeks later I found myself back at Silverstone for the fitment of the steel 997 Turbo rear brake discs, replacement RS29 pads all round, and the fitment of the Cup toe links along with a complete geometry set up.
After a lot of hard work by Andy and his lads (and numerous cups of Doms quite frankly horrendous coffee!!) the car was ready to be road tested.
Andy came back and professed himself pleased with the results of the Cup toe links and the geometry adjustment, corner weight and ride hight adjustment but also pointed out he thought that the car was pulling to the N/S and was thus in need of further investigation.
Whilst road testing the car Andy had bedded the brake pads in but felt that there was an issue with one of the calipers binding on the front of the car.
Andys investigation revealed that when I’d removed the discs and pads to de-glaze them some weeks earlier I’d installed one of the alloy caliper spacers (supplied with the conversion kit to space the caliper out to accept the 12mm larger diameter disc) the wrong way round.
This meant the corner of the spacer was sticking out and wasn’t allowing the pads to sit squarely in the caliper body. This in turn was making the new (and thus thicker) pads bind against the disc.
Clearly I have to accept the blame for this oversight BUT more worryingly we found the Alcon disc/bell set up on the same side was not running centrally to the caliper itself. At the thick end of £1200 for the disc conversion, I’d expected better.
This meant however that the space on one side of the disc was only just sufficient to get the pad in (but did not leave sufficient space for the expensive anti squeal shims to fit between the caliper pistons and the back of the pad)
Sure enough as the journey home progressed, the dreaded RS29 pad squeal started to manifest itself…………………..
By the time I arrived home some 100 miles later, the noise was embarrassingly loud.
There then followed numerous attempts by myself over the following weeks to silence the squealing.
Firstly by bedding the pads in as detailed precisely on the Pagid website, and then removing them and applying a chamfer to the leading edge of all the pads.
The results appeared successful at first, but after a few heavy stops the squeal re-appeared with a vengeance.
After speaking to the UK agent for Pagid I decided to have some dampers made up for the pads to reduce any resonance that may have been causing the pads to resonate and thus squeal (the dampers are fitted to the standard GT3 P90 OPC pads and take the form of round steel weights attached to the brake pad)
The fitment of these dampers again seemed successful at first, but as before, and after a few heavy stops, the squeal re-appeared.
I then read on Rennlist that the RS29s could be silenced by heavy heat cycling.
I therefore took the car out to my favorite section of road and drove it as if I’d just stolen it.!!
In the process I managed to make the brakes fade to point whereby they wouldn’t stop the car………………….
Sure enough the squeaking stopped thereafter…………………………….but only for a few days.
Whilst sitting and pondering the problem one evening I decided I needed to establish just where the squeal was coming from, ie the front or the rear brakes.
Next day saw me on a deserted road driving the car along at 50mph with the door open and my head stuck out of the door down by the sill listening for the source of the squeal !!!!!!!
My investigation revealed that the front brakes were now totally silent and the rears were the source of the noise.
Having established this I conducted further tests to establish under which circumstances the brakes squealed.
From high speeds and using a heavy (race type) “prod” of the brake pedal, the squeal was not present. If however one braked gently from high speed and reduced the braking pressure as the car slowed, the rear brakes squealed every time.
Logic indicated that the front brakes were clearly doing the majority of the work to slow the car and thus the rear pads weren’t operating at a temperature consistent with preventing them from glazing up and squealing.
A chat with the American supplier of the RS29 pads revealed that the four pot 996 GT2 rear calipers utilize the same brake pad shape and thickness as the 996 Turbo rear caliper (this despite the GT2 rear disc being 350mm in dia as opposed to the Turbos 330mm dia) it also transpired that the pad is the same as those fitted in the front caliper of the 996 C4 or C2
I duly purchased a set of standard off the shelf OPC 996 Turbo pads and installed them with yet another set of new (and expensive) anti squeal shims.
Result ? no squealing brakes !!!
With the brakes now functioning (reasonably) my attention turned back to Andys comment that there was clearly something amiss with the front end of the car and thus he wanted it back to carry out further investigations.
The car was duly booked in and left with the FearnSport posse for three days.
On it’s return Andy said that their work had wrought a massive difference but he still wasn’t happy that all was as it should be.
This “problem” manifested itself in the car being willing to turn into left hand bends but not so right hand turns, whereby the car understeered ( scarily so at high speed) the problem being exacerbated as the steering weighted up to the point that it felt like it had locked up solid on a couple of such occasions)
Andy offered to have the car back, but warned that any further investigative work would most likely run to in excess of 20 hours (and would involve removing the front suspension in its entirety and stripping it down for careful inspection and measurement)
By now I was pretty much at the end of my tether and hence decided that the car was never going to handle as sweetly as my Mk1 GT3 and thus I’d sell it.
I had a couple of tentative enquires but no serious purchasers.
As I’d previously had some work carried very successfully on my GT3 by Mike at Sports and Classic I asked what his thoughts were.
He offered to pop in to check the car over with his trusty old Dunlop camber gauge.
He duly appeared a few days later and after a cursory inspection pronounced the camber to be out on two wheels.
He offered to have the car in and check the ride height, toe and camber settings.
I delivered the car to him just before lunchtime one day the following week.
I caught the train back home (an hour and half journey) and as I walked in the front door Mike rang to say he’d adjusted the toe and camber and the car now drove as well as any GT2 he’d driven.
Somewhat puzzled (for obvious reasons) I headed back to Mikes place the following day to road test the car.
His adjustments had indeed drastically improved the car and I drove it home happier with it than I’d ever previously been.
Over the following weeks and months I drove the car (some 10,000 miles), but the more I drove it the more it became clear that whilst the car was clearly a vast improvement from when I’d first purchased it, it still wasn’t “right”
I thus started to think about selling it again and buying another MK1 GT3.
However, whilst surfing through the PH forums I took a look through the “Suspension and Brakes” forum.
A search revealed the name ( and recommendation of) Chris Franklin at http://www.centergravity.co.uk/
A further Google search also brought up the same name.
I contacted Chris several weeks ago and discussed the situation with him.
He was clearly very knowledgeable and asked a lot of salient questions.
The car was duly booked in for a geometry check on Tuesday 25th September.
(I subsequently met Chris at the Ragley Hall fiasco prior to our scheduled meeting so it wasn’t a totally wasted day from my perspective !!)
Perhaps I should add at this point that I was getting somewhat disgruntled with the Alcon steel discs and RS29 front pad combination, finding them noisy and (for road use anyway) not overly impressive in terms of stopping power and consistency.
After the debacle with the original PCCBs I’d approached Surface Transforms earlier in the year to see if they were willing to use my car as a guinea pig/ rolling test bed/advertisment for their wares
I thus ended up fitting the Surface Transforms carbon ceramic discs mentioned in this thread some six weeks ago
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
These are now bedded in (it took a fairly lengthy 1000 plus miles, but the results are now superb)
The fitment of the lighter ceramic discs seemed to mask a lot of the previous under steer that could previously be felt in right hand bends. Added to which the car felt so much more composed over mid-corner bumps along with lighter steering, crisper turn in and a far more compliant ride.
Slowly the GT2 was starting to gain some of the handling finesse my previous GT3 had…………..
Due to a mix up, I missed my appointment at Centre Gravity on the 25th September and thus re-booked the car in for yesterday (Friday 5th)
I arrived at Centre Gravity at 10.40 yesterday morning and then watched as Chris immediately got stuck in.
Talk about methodical ! the guy's quite superb to watch working.
He took the wheels of the car and analysed the tyres and then checked the suspension components over thoroughly.
He checked the ride heights (out on the front) the rears were within tolerance just, but at the very mimimum ride height, but the spring seat collars were seized on the rear dampers (so even if we had wanted to adjust them we couldn't) Unfortunately the rear dampers are somewhat "tired" too (but more on that another time !)
To muddy the waters further I took the car to my usual OPC for its big annual service the day before I took it over to Centre Gravity.
On driving it away from the dealership, it was clear that the tyre pressures had been “adjusted” as the car now displayed all the usual traits I’d witnessed previously when the pressures were not spot on, ie poor ride quality, tramlining, a propensity to follow cambers and poor mid corner bump absorption.
Chris checked the pressures once they were stone cold and found them to be 4psi too high all around ............................so much for my thousand pound service by Porsche trained technicians ..........................
.
The corner weights were out (and that was before we started on the geometry settings themselves..................) The camber settings were also out (both front and rear) as indeed were the toe settings.
Chris spent nearly eight hours checking, adjusting, then re-checking and re-adjusting everything until he was satisfied that all was where it should be (and having to work all his settings around the un-adjustable rear spring platforms)
At 8pm last night we went out on Chris's "test route" It was clear (even from the passenger seat) this wasn't the same car that I'd driven into Chris's workshop some 9 hours previously. For a start, and with the tyre pressures adjusted correctly, the cars ride was back to it's compliant self.
But it was also clear the car was now capable of carrying previously unbelieveable amounts of speed through the corners.......................
Cue my turn in the drivers seat.................. OMFG, this is the car that I always hoped it would be, so much closer to my old GT3 that I can't believe it's the same car I've struggled so desperately with for the past 10 tortuous months.
Finally I have a GT2 with brakes that work as well as (if not better) than the way it's manufacturers intended, ditto the suspension and handling characteristics.
Just phenomenal !!!!
Where previously there'd been arm aching (literally) understeer and thus no clue as to what was going on between the tyre and the tarmac beneath it, there's now steering that is light, communicative (the steering wheel now writhes very gently in your hands at speed as all the well set up 911s I’ve driven have tended to do) and so feelsome that you can accurately feel the onset of the front tyres just starting to lose grip (we tried several hilarious circuits of Chris's favorite testing roundabout to establish this !!)
If you ever need the geometry checked or adjusted on your car, do yourself a massive favour and take it over to Chris. He's a smashing (and funny) bloke that really knows his onions when it comes to suspension set up.
So there you have it, after ten months of frustration (and not inconsiderable expense) I now finally have the car I dreamed of owning from the moment I first set eyes on one back in 2000/2001.
It now handles as close to (if not better than) my MK1 GT3, but with the added bonus of massive amounts of torque to catapult it out of the corners !
The moral of this story ? I guess is buyer beware, but also ensure any dialogue over the inspection of and report on the serviceability of components prior to purchase, is committed to either Email or a written letter.
(My legal advisor was of the opinion that I’d prejudiced any claim against Reading OPC for replacement PCCBs by not having anything in writing with regards to their report on the discs condition)
I make no bones about the fact I’m less than happy with the supplier of the steel disc conversion (and the adjustments they carried out to the cars suspension geometry) The experience with the GT2 was made all the more galling as they’d previously set up the geometry on my MK1 GT3 and did a superb job of it (and in the process transformed it from a car waiting to throw itself off the road at the first opportunity into a precision weapon that all those of you who have driven a well set up MK1 will be familiar with)
The two attempts they had at setting up the geometry on the GT2 were laughable (and expensive)
I know there are plenty of GT3 and GT2 users on here who are more than happy with the Alcon disc conversions. Most of you will be track day users, and from my limited experience of track work in the GT2 I’d concur that they "do what they say on the tin".
However, for road work I’m convinced that the PCCBs are the better option in that the benefits bestowed by the decrease in unsprung weight are clear to feel (IMO)
To that end, many thanks to Antoni Sznerch at Surface Transforms for seeing the production and fitment of the carbon ceramic discs to the car through to completion.
My thanks to Andy, Dom (not so much you Dom, your coffee is truly atrocious !!) and the lads at FearnSport who wrought a massive improvement to the car (I look back now and wonder how I kept it on the road driving through the winter on what were pretty much bald tyres prior to them working their magic on it)
Unfortunately, and for whatever reason, they never managed to find the handling sweet spot I so desperately craved (and hoped existed having driven my MK1 GT3)
My thanks also go to Mike at Sports and Classic for the improvements he wrought on the car (and for his positive, have a go attitude and last ditch attempt at getting to the bottom of the problem)
Finally a big thank you to Chris Franklin at Centre Gravity.
As you said to me yesterday Chris “what I do isn’t a black art or any kind of magic, it’s purely reading the data and setting the car up accurately to that data”
Nuff said
Note to Mods. Apologies for the massive length of this post.
I’ve singled out one company in particular (which I have used successfully on several occasions in the past) as I feel they’ve failed to provide me with the standard of service (and professionalism) I would have expected.
If you feel my "attack" on them specifically breaks the N & S rules of the Forum, please feel free to edit as you deem necessary.
And so to the gory details .............
As many of you will be aware, last November I sold my wonderful Zanzibar MK 1 GT3, my pain was eased somewhat by the purchase of a stunning and totally unmolested Midnight Blue GT2 the very same day !
What followed over the next ten months has been a time consuming, frustrating (and on a couple of occasions) downright dangerous experience.
The GT2 was bought privately and was located near Marlborough (I live in N.Wales)
I arrived to view the car at 9.15pm on a dark and bitterly cold November night.
I viewed the car indoors, and having inspected it, I went on to check all the paperwork to establish all was in order.
Having checked all the documentation I decided that a test drive on narrow, dark, slippery and unfamiliar roads would serve little or no purpose……………..I openly admit with hindsight that I committed a cardinal mistake by not test driving the car.
I was however pacified somewhat by the fact that the owner was more than happy for me to have the car inspected at OPC Swindon to establish the condition of the PCCB brakes and to road test the car to ensure the transmission didn’t jump out of second gear.
As I wanted to get a Porsche warranty on the car, I was sure that the OPC would thoroughly road test the vehicle as part of the 111 point check required to issue said warranty.
Unfortunately when the owner tried to book the car in for its inspection at Swindon OPC they were too busy, The car was thus booked in at Reading………………
Reading carried out their inspection of the car and verbally gave the brakes and transmission a clean bill of health.
They also issued a warranty on the vehicle after a couple of small snags had been addressed.
I drove the car home and immediately had concerns over the efficiency of the brakes. I have documented my findings elsewhere on this forum http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
The next time I used the car was for 120 mile round trip. It was during this drive that I noticed the cars tendency to pull to the left.
This didn’t bother me as my GT3 displayed similar traits when I first purchased it and once the geometry had been set up it handled perfectly.
The brakes continued to give me cause for concern and I thus rang one of the leading Porsche Independants who are well versed in all things GT2 /3.
They were forthright and said that from the description I’d given him the PCCBs were unserviceable. They recommended the fitment of a pair of Alcon fully floating discs to the front of the car as the minimum step to restoring braking efficiency.
I thus booked the car in for the brake conversion using standard Pagid/Porsche P90 GT3 front pads and a full geometry check/alignment.
I delivered the car and specifically requested the cars geometry be set up for road use.
I waited whilst the brakes and suspension geometry were attended to, and looked forward to driving the car home with brakes that worked and suspension correctly aligned to rectify the steering pull.
What I actually got to drive home in was a car with camber settings more akin to a race car.
It proved well nigh impossible to keep the car pointing in a straight line as the tyres followed every camber and tramlined noticeably.
The brakes were an improvement (but as documented here :- http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0... things started to go astray with them before long……….)
I rang the company that had carried out the work and informed them I was somewhat displeased with the results of the wheel alignment they’d carried out.
They offered to have the car back to adjust the geometry settings to something more “user friendly”
Unfortunately in between booking the car in and actually taking it there, I hit a badger at high speed, which did little to improve the cars already wayward tendencies……….
I took the car back down to the company (a 340 mile round trip, a minimum of £75 worth of fuel and a day lost)
I was entirely open with the company in question and admitted that I’d hit the badger and clearly re-arranged the geometry settings on the N/S/F of the car.
They agreed to adjust the geometry to a fast road set up rather than the out an out track set up they’d clearly applied at their first attempt.
Four hours later the car appeared and I was given a bill for £50 +vat for the realignment required as a result of my “badger termination incident”
The drive home, whilst an improvement on the previous set up, left me feeling there was something still not quite "right" with the car.
Having been in contact with a fellow GT2 owner from this forum previously, I contacted him with my concerns.
He suggested I take my car to Andy at Fearnsport as he’d found him excellent in addressing some issues he’d had with his car.
I duly contacted Andy and arranged to take the car down to Silverstone for him to drive and assess the suspension and brakes on the car.
By now the brakes were nearly as inefficient as the unserviceable PCCBs and thus I asked Andy what the best way forward was to sort the issue out once and for all.
Andy test drove the car and commented it was clearly badly set up and thus handled accordingly………..
The car was subsequently booked in for a full geometry adjustment to include corner weights and ride height adjustment.
At the same time Andy commented it was impossible to deploy all the cars power because there was a problem with the rear end of the car steering itself under power.
Andy thus suggested that the fitment of Cup toe links to tighten things up at the rear of the car and make it more consistent and easier to use.
As regards the brake situation I did some research on Rennlist, the results of which indicated that the 997 Turbo or 997 GT3 steel rear discs were 350mm diameter and would thus be a straight swap for the unserviceable PCCBs on the rear of the car.
The company that had previously supplied me with the Alcon discs told me the steel conversion was fully compatible with the original PCCBs on the rear. (subsequent conversations with various other specialists would tend to indicate this isn’t the case)
Andy suggested the use of Pagid RS 29 pads front and rear as he felt the aggressively hooked Alcon discs were not readily compatible with the standard OPC GT3 P90 pads.
A couple of weeks later I found myself back at Silverstone for the fitment of the steel 997 Turbo rear brake discs, replacement RS29 pads all round, and the fitment of the Cup toe links along with a complete geometry set up.
After a lot of hard work by Andy and his lads (and numerous cups of Doms quite frankly horrendous coffee!!) the car was ready to be road tested.
Andy came back and professed himself pleased with the results of the Cup toe links and the geometry adjustment, corner weight and ride hight adjustment but also pointed out he thought that the car was pulling to the N/S and was thus in need of further investigation.
Whilst road testing the car Andy had bedded the brake pads in but felt that there was an issue with one of the calipers binding on the front of the car.
Andys investigation revealed that when I’d removed the discs and pads to de-glaze them some weeks earlier I’d installed one of the alloy caliper spacers (supplied with the conversion kit to space the caliper out to accept the 12mm larger diameter disc) the wrong way round.
This meant the corner of the spacer was sticking out and wasn’t allowing the pads to sit squarely in the caliper body. This in turn was making the new (and thus thicker) pads bind against the disc.
Clearly I have to accept the blame for this oversight BUT more worryingly we found the Alcon disc/bell set up on the same side was not running centrally to the caliper itself. At the thick end of £1200 for the disc conversion, I’d expected better.
This meant however that the space on one side of the disc was only just sufficient to get the pad in (but did not leave sufficient space for the expensive anti squeal shims to fit between the caliper pistons and the back of the pad)
Sure enough as the journey home progressed, the dreaded RS29 pad squeal started to manifest itself…………………..
By the time I arrived home some 100 miles later, the noise was embarrassingly loud.
There then followed numerous attempts by myself over the following weeks to silence the squealing.
Firstly by bedding the pads in as detailed precisely on the Pagid website, and then removing them and applying a chamfer to the leading edge of all the pads.
The results appeared successful at first, but after a few heavy stops the squeal re-appeared with a vengeance.
After speaking to the UK agent for Pagid I decided to have some dampers made up for the pads to reduce any resonance that may have been causing the pads to resonate and thus squeal (the dampers are fitted to the standard GT3 P90 OPC pads and take the form of round steel weights attached to the brake pad)
The fitment of these dampers again seemed successful at first, but as before, and after a few heavy stops, the squeal re-appeared.
I then read on Rennlist that the RS29s could be silenced by heavy heat cycling.
I therefore took the car out to my favorite section of road and drove it as if I’d just stolen it.!!
In the process I managed to make the brakes fade to point whereby they wouldn’t stop the car………………….
Sure enough the squeaking stopped thereafter…………………………….but only for a few days.
Whilst sitting and pondering the problem one evening I decided I needed to establish just where the squeal was coming from, ie the front or the rear brakes.
Next day saw me on a deserted road driving the car along at 50mph with the door open and my head stuck out of the door down by the sill listening for the source of the squeal !!!!!!!
My investigation revealed that the front brakes were now totally silent and the rears were the source of the noise.
Having established this I conducted further tests to establish under which circumstances the brakes squealed.
From high speeds and using a heavy (race type) “prod” of the brake pedal, the squeal was not present. If however one braked gently from high speed and reduced the braking pressure as the car slowed, the rear brakes squealed every time.
Logic indicated that the front brakes were clearly doing the majority of the work to slow the car and thus the rear pads weren’t operating at a temperature consistent with preventing them from glazing up and squealing.
A chat with the American supplier of the RS29 pads revealed that the four pot 996 GT2 rear calipers utilize the same brake pad shape and thickness as the 996 Turbo rear caliper (this despite the GT2 rear disc being 350mm in dia as opposed to the Turbos 330mm dia) it also transpired that the pad is the same as those fitted in the front caliper of the 996 C4 or C2
I duly purchased a set of standard off the shelf OPC 996 Turbo pads and installed them with yet another set of new (and expensive) anti squeal shims.
Result ? no squealing brakes !!!
With the brakes now functioning (reasonably) my attention turned back to Andys comment that there was clearly something amiss with the front end of the car and thus he wanted it back to carry out further investigations.
The car was duly booked in and left with the FearnSport posse for three days.
On it’s return Andy said that their work had wrought a massive difference but he still wasn’t happy that all was as it should be.
This “problem” manifested itself in the car being willing to turn into left hand bends but not so right hand turns, whereby the car understeered ( scarily so at high speed) the problem being exacerbated as the steering weighted up to the point that it felt like it had locked up solid on a couple of such occasions)
Andy offered to have the car back, but warned that any further investigative work would most likely run to in excess of 20 hours (and would involve removing the front suspension in its entirety and stripping it down for careful inspection and measurement)
By now I was pretty much at the end of my tether and hence decided that the car was never going to handle as sweetly as my Mk1 GT3 and thus I’d sell it.
I had a couple of tentative enquires but no serious purchasers.
As I’d previously had some work carried very successfully on my GT3 by Mike at Sports and Classic I asked what his thoughts were.
He offered to pop in to check the car over with his trusty old Dunlop camber gauge.
He duly appeared a few days later and after a cursory inspection pronounced the camber to be out on two wheels.
He offered to have the car in and check the ride height, toe and camber settings.
I delivered the car to him just before lunchtime one day the following week.
I caught the train back home (an hour and half journey) and as I walked in the front door Mike rang to say he’d adjusted the toe and camber and the car now drove as well as any GT2 he’d driven.
Somewhat puzzled (for obvious reasons) I headed back to Mikes place the following day to road test the car.
His adjustments had indeed drastically improved the car and I drove it home happier with it than I’d ever previously been.
Over the following weeks and months I drove the car (some 10,000 miles), but the more I drove it the more it became clear that whilst the car was clearly a vast improvement from when I’d first purchased it, it still wasn’t “right”
I thus started to think about selling it again and buying another MK1 GT3.
However, whilst surfing through the PH forums I took a look through the “Suspension and Brakes” forum.
A search revealed the name ( and recommendation of) Chris Franklin at http://www.centergravity.co.uk/
A further Google search also brought up the same name.
I contacted Chris several weeks ago and discussed the situation with him.
He was clearly very knowledgeable and asked a lot of salient questions.
The car was duly booked in for a geometry check on Tuesday 25th September.
(I subsequently met Chris at the Ragley Hall fiasco prior to our scheduled meeting so it wasn’t a totally wasted day from my perspective !!)
Perhaps I should add at this point that I was getting somewhat disgruntled with the Alcon steel discs and RS29 front pad combination, finding them noisy and (for road use anyway) not overly impressive in terms of stopping power and consistency.
After the debacle with the original PCCBs I’d approached Surface Transforms earlier in the year to see if they were willing to use my car as a guinea pig/ rolling test bed/advertisment for their wares
I thus ended up fitting the Surface Transforms carbon ceramic discs mentioned in this thread some six weeks ago
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
These are now bedded in (it took a fairly lengthy 1000 plus miles, but the results are now superb)
The fitment of the lighter ceramic discs seemed to mask a lot of the previous under steer that could previously be felt in right hand bends. Added to which the car felt so much more composed over mid-corner bumps along with lighter steering, crisper turn in and a far more compliant ride.
Slowly the GT2 was starting to gain some of the handling finesse my previous GT3 had…………..
Due to a mix up, I missed my appointment at Centre Gravity on the 25th September and thus re-booked the car in for yesterday (Friday 5th)
I arrived at Centre Gravity at 10.40 yesterday morning and then watched as Chris immediately got stuck in.
Talk about methodical ! the guy's quite superb to watch working.
He took the wheels of the car and analysed the tyres and then checked the suspension components over thoroughly.
He checked the ride heights (out on the front) the rears were within tolerance just, but at the very mimimum ride height, but the spring seat collars were seized on the rear dampers (so even if we had wanted to adjust them we couldn't) Unfortunately the rear dampers are somewhat "tired" too (but more on that another time !)
To muddy the waters further I took the car to my usual OPC for its big annual service the day before I took it over to Centre Gravity.
On driving it away from the dealership, it was clear that the tyre pressures had been “adjusted” as the car now displayed all the usual traits I’d witnessed previously when the pressures were not spot on, ie poor ride quality, tramlining, a propensity to follow cambers and poor mid corner bump absorption.
Chris checked the pressures once they were stone cold and found them to be 4psi too high all around ............................so much for my thousand pound service by Porsche trained technicians ..........................
.
The corner weights were out (and that was before we started on the geometry settings themselves..................) The camber settings were also out (both front and rear) as indeed were the toe settings.
Chris spent nearly eight hours checking, adjusting, then re-checking and re-adjusting everything until he was satisfied that all was where it should be (and having to work all his settings around the un-adjustable rear spring platforms)
At 8pm last night we went out on Chris's "test route" It was clear (even from the passenger seat) this wasn't the same car that I'd driven into Chris's workshop some 9 hours previously. For a start, and with the tyre pressures adjusted correctly, the cars ride was back to it's compliant self.
But it was also clear the car was now capable of carrying previously unbelieveable amounts of speed through the corners.......................
Cue my turn in the drivers seat.................. OMFG, this is the car that I always hoped it would be, so much closer to my old GT3 that I can't believe it's the same car I've struggled so desperately with for the past 10 tortuous months.
Finally I have a GT2 with brakes that work as well as (if not better) than the way it's manufacturers intended, ditto the suspension and handling characteristics.
Just phenomenal !!!!
Where previously there'd been arm aching (literally) understeer and thus no clue as to what was going on between the tyre and the tarmac beneath it, there's now steering that is light, communicative (the steering wheel now writhes very gently in your hands at speed as all the well set up 911s I’ve driven have tended to do) and so feelsome that you can accurately feel the onset of the front tyres just starting to lose grip (we tried several hilarious circuits of Chris's favorite testing roundabout to establish this !!)
If you ever need the geometry checked or adjusted on your car, do yourself a massive favour and take it over to Chris. He's a smashing (and funny) bloke that really knows his onions when it comes to suspension set up.
So there you have it, after ten months of frustration (and not inconsiderable expense) I now finally have the car I dreamed of owning from the moment I first set eyes on one back in 2000/2001.
It now handles as close to (if not better than) my MK1 GT3, but with the added bonus of massive amounts of torque to catapult it out of the corners !
The moral of this story ? I guess is buyer beware, but also ensure any dialogue over the inspection of and report on the serviceability of components prior to purchase, is committed to either Email or a written letter.
(My legal advisor was of the opinion that I’d prejudiced any claim against Reading OPC for replacement PCCBs by not having anything in writing with regards to their report on the discs condition)
I make no bones about the fact I’m less than happy with the supplier of the steel disc conversion (and the adjustments they carried out to the cars suspension geometry) The experience with the GT2 was made all the more galling as they’d previously set up the geometry on my MK1 GT3 and did a superb job of it (and in the process transformed it from a car waiting to throw itself off the road at the first opportunity into a precision weapon that all those of you who have driven a well set up MK1 will be familiar with)
The two attempts they had at setting up the geometry on the GT2 were laughable (and expensive)
I know there are plenty of GT3 and GT2 users on here who are more than happy with the Alcon disc conversions. Most of you will be track day users, and from my limited experience of track work in the GT2 I’d concur that they "do what they say on the tin".
However, for road work I’m convinced that the PCCBs are the better option in that the benefits bestowed by the decrease in unsprung weight are clear to feel (IMO)
To that end, many thanks to Antoni Sznerch at Surface Transforms for seeing the production and fitment of the carbon ceramic discs to the car through to completion.
My thanks to Andy, Dom (not so much you Dom, your coffee is truly atrocious !!) and the lads at FearnSport who wrought a massive improvement to the car (I look back now and wonder how I kept it on the road driving through the winter on what were pretty much bald tyres prior to them working their magic on it)
Unfortunately, and for whatever reason, they never managed to find the handling sweet spot I so desperately craved (and hoped existed having driven my MK1 GT3)
My thanks also go to Mike at Sports and Classic for the improvements he wrought on the car (and for his positive, have a go attitude and last ditch attempt at getting to the bottom of the problem)
Finally a big thank you to Chris Franklin at Centre Gravity.
As you said to me yesterday Chris “what I do isn’t a black art or any kind of magic, it’s purely reading the data and setting the car up accurately to that data”
Nuff said
Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 7th October 09:56
Edited by Slippydiff on Friday 23 May 00:16
Excellent write up slippy, 
Oi, leave my coffee out of it 
In fairness to Andy/Matt, if something is potentially amiss deep in the suspension, the problem arises of whether to 'dial out' the fault as far as possible, or keep everything adjusted to where it should be in theory, to isolate the problem. Our set ups usually hit the sweet spot, even if my hot beverages don't, as many here will testify
We're obviously chuffed you got it sorted tho', and that Antoni's brakes are working a treat
In fairness to Andy/Matt, if something is potentially amiss deep in the suspension, the problem arises of whether to 'dial out' the fault as far as possible, or keep everything adjusted to where it should be in theory, to isolate the problem. Our set ups usually hit the sweet spot, even if my hot beverages don't, as many here will testify
We're obviously chuffed you got it sorted tho', and that Antoni's brakes are working a treat
domster said:
Oi, leave my coffee out of it
In fairness to Andy/Matt, if something is potentially amiss deep in the suspension, the problem arises of whether to 'dial out' the fault as far as possible, or keep everything adjusted to where it should be in theory, to isolate the problem. Our set ups usually hit the sweet spot, even if my hot beverages don't, as many here will testify
We're obviously chuffed you got it sorted tho', and that Antoni's brakes are working a treat
Dom, I hope the above is a "fair" summary of the events and one that doesn't paint a poor picture of what you and the rest of the "Fearnsport gang" achieved with my car.In fairness to Andy/Matt, if something is potentially amiss deep in the suspension, the problem arises of whether to 'dial out' the fault as far as possible, or keep everything adjusted to where it should be in theory, to isolate the problem. Our set ups usually hit the sweet spot, even if my hot beverages don't, as many here will testify
We're obviously chuffed you got it sorted tho', and that Antoni's brakes are working a treat
The car that left your workshops the last time we met was a very different animal to the one I first brought to you earlier in the year. For your all your advice/help/support, call it what you want, I am most grateful.
But I would say this................
Your Dodo wax is still far better than your coffee will ever be
baptistsan said:
Had a chat with Chris yesterday and he was highly impressed with your car Glad she is now sorted.
Chris and I are sorting out another suspension geometry tech. talk for Porsche owners in November if anyone is interested.
He did seem to rather enjoy it (both from the drivers and passenger seat) Glad she is now sorted.Chris and I are sorting out another suspension geometry tech. talk for Porsche owners in November if anyone is interested.
Were you there having a 964 RS set up ?
Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 7th October 13:02
johnfm said:
If youor dampers are tired and you cannot adjust rear ride height you really need to get new dampers. Made a world of improvement to my GT3'
Glad to hear you have got the car sorted.
Thanks for that John, plans are afoot to fit something a bit more bespoke...........................Glad to hear you have got the car sorted.
Gosh Slippy, what a nightmare.
To say i have the same car but have almost opposite problems is scary to say the least.
My PCCBS failed pretty early in life, i duly fitted the alcons but was warned about the spacer thing. I run RS29's all round and dont get much squeeling at all on the occasion they do i just increase the pedal pressure and it goes (think its only one wheel, probably rear) - The braking from cold should best be avoided... this is not really a road pad it needs several hundred degrees just to wake up.
I too have suffered from "one size fits all" handling set ups. I believe its because they have one set up that they know works and they use it everywhere.
The first "track" set up left me with a car that was easy to drive but the uneven tyre wear was awful. Basically too little camber
On your recommendation i went to Andy and after i had expressed my desire not to have yet another "fast road setup" he duly set the car up as i wanted.
The tyre wear is even across the tread now even with serious track work, sure its harder to drive on the limit but the grip is there. On the road its a joke for sure but i ignore it.
The car has never really understeered BTH, but it does need both front and rear tyres to be up to temperature, i do find on the road that the rears come up much quicker and can give understeer but i just ignore that as well.
My remaining problem is high speed stability of the rear, it still rocks and will not settle and feels like it wants to let go big time, but i know the dampers have done 40,000 miles so what do i expect ?
Now you have a good road set up, it may be worthwhile going on the track to see if you have different characteristics once temperatures have come into play.
I have alwasy found it is nigh on impossible to get consistant set ups between road and competition... even using you most favoured test route, there is something about track driving on the limit or rallying that you cannot replicate on the road.
Its that combination of brake temp and bias, tyre temp, damper temp that changes a cars characteristics beyond the static set up.
WRT Geometry, i have also found that when you drive a car away from a garage and immediately drive it into another garage the geometry is always "out"
Anyway glad your sorted and hope you keep it.....coming to Donny on the 24th ?
To say i have the same car but have almost opposite problems is scary to say the least.
My PCCBS failed pretty early in life, i duly fitted the alcons but was warned about the spacer thing. I run RS29's all round and dont get much squeeling at all on the occasion they do i just increase the pedal pressure and it goes (think its only one wheel, probably rear) - The braking from cold should best be avoided... this is not really a road pad it needs several hundred degrees just to wake up.
I too have suffered from "one size fits all" handling set ups. I believe its because they have one set up that they know works and they use it everywhere.
The first "track" set up left me with a car that was easy to drive but the uneven tyre wear was awful. Basically too little camber
On your recommendation i went to Andy and after i had expressed my desire not to have yet another "fast road setup" he duly set the car up as i wanted.
The tyre wear is even across the tread now even with serious track work, sure its harder to drive on the limit but the grip is there. On the road its a joke for sure but i ignore it.
The car has never really understeered BTH, but it does need both front and rear tyres to be up to temperature, i do find on the road that the rears come up much quicker and can give understeer but i just ignore that as well.
My remaining problem is high speed stability of the rear, it still rocks and will not settle and feels like it wants to let go big time, but i know the dampers have done 40,000 miles so what do i expect ?
Now you have a good road set up, it may be worthwhile going on the track to see if you have different characteristics once temperatures have come into play.
I have alwasy found it is nigh on impossible to get consistant set ups between road and competition... even using you most favoured test route, there is something about track driving on the limit or rallying that you cannot replicate on the road.
Its that combination of brake temp and bias, tyre temp, damper temp that changes a cars characteristics beyond the static set up.
WRT Geometry, i have also found that when you drive a car away from a garage and immediately drive it into another garage the geometry is always "out"
Anyway glad your sorted and hope you keep it.....coming to Donny on the 24th ?
Edited by Pork_n_Beem on Sunday 7th October 14:33
Slippydiff said:
baptistsan said:
Had a chat with Chris yesterday and he was highly impressed with your car Glad she is now sorted.
Chris and I are sorting out another suspension geometry tech. talk for Porsche owners in November if anyone is interested.
He did seem to rather enjoy it (both from the drivers and passenger seat) Glad she is now sorted.Chris and I are sorting out another suspension geometry tech. talk for Porsche owners in November if anyone is interested.
Were you there having a 964 RS set up ?
Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 7th October 13:02
Slippydiff said:
johnfm said:
If youor dampers are tired and you cannot adjust rear ride height you really need to get new dampers. Made a world of improvement to my GT3'
Glad to hear you have got the car sorted.
Thanks for that John, plans are afoot to fit something a bit more bespoke...........................Glad to hear you have got the car sorted.
Pork_n_Beem said:
Gosh Slippy, what a nightmare.
My remaining problem is high speed stability of the rear, it still rocks and will not settle and feels like it wants to let go big time, but i know the dampers have done 40,000 miles so what do i expect ?
Dampers definately the problem if it feels like it rocks and won't sttle. sounds under damped.My remaining problem is high speed stability of the rear, it still rocks and will not settle and feels like it wants to let go big time, but i know the dampers have done 40,000 miles so what do i expect ?
Edited by Pork_n_Beem on Sunday 7th October 14:33
domster said:
Slippydiff said:
Your Dodo wax is still far better than your coffee will ever be
LOL, just you wait... I will bring out a coffee flavoured wax at some point, just for you Henry Shit coffee mind
Edited by housemaster on Sunday 7th October 23:08
housemaster said:
Slippydiff said:
Your Dodo wax is still far better than your coffee will ever be
domster said:
LOL, just you wait... I will bring out a coffee flavoured wax at some point, just for you Henry
No complaining from me, when I pitched up last week it was less than 30 seconds before someone furnished me with a bacon butty. THAT is service!Shit coffee mind
...just kidding, curiously, Johns breakfast list did look a little long for just the 5 of us there! Coffee wasn't *that* bad...mind you, the prev nights curry was still making itself known!Back on topic, glad your '2 is now behaving itself and generating ear-to-ear grins Henry. As and when I get new dampers for the Westfield, I'll give Chris a call to get him to re-corner weight and setup the geo.
S
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