Best Porsche for tracdays, limited budget
Discussion
Doh, was always under the impression that 964 onwards was reasonably progressive compared to the Elise due to higher polar moment of inertia.
I should probably get an mx5. Or steal my sisters!
I just want a nice driftable car to learn oversteer on without too much gravel action. Also always fancied a 911, but I guess I'll end up with a 996/7 or something when I'm richer and use it for road not track.
domster said:
964RS is unassisted
Sorry Dom RHD & Tourings have pas.
993RS more expensive for the reasons that- 1 its more modern, 2 its a less compramised road car but just as able on track & 3 coz half the number were built.
Approximate figures here coz I can't be arsed to dig out my info but roughly 2200 964RS 1100 993RS.
ref not seeing cheap 964RS's about been a few in 911 & PW lately for sub £25k one last month for £23k & tatty ones start at approx £17k.
Fair few 993 RS's about for sub £40k & some nice ones can be had at £35k, £30k is posible but they are a bit tatty.
domster said:
[quote=tony.t]Buy a 964C2 £12-18k, fit; new springs and dampers £1.5k, motec or MAF £2-4K, RS flywheel + clutch £1.5k, turbo brakes max £3k, sport seats £1.5k, catbypass cup pipe £0.5K.
A stock RS won`t keep up on track
1. I doubt it. The stock motor can push out up to 290bhp in an RS without MAF or Motec. A C2 with MAF will get a max of 290-295bhp and 9M gets 320bhp with Motec. So where will the perfomance advantage come from... 5-30bhp is not a lot when you consider that an RS will still be lighter and handle sweeter. There is more to an RS than the tweeks you mention above. This is a common fallacy - it is not a mildly breathed on C2, it is almost a completely different car, certainly to drive.
2. What's the sodding point - you can get an RS for 23k anyway?!!!
You have about 10k of mods onto a 12-18k car. Okay, you could do a RHD one, but that is still 28k at the upper end and you can get RHD 964RSs for 30k. Besides, RSs don't depreciate much these days, but modified C2s are worth what people will pay for them. Domster
DanH wants a RHD trackday/daily driver Porsche for £30-35k and most RHD 964RS I have seen advertised recently are at best at the top end of this budget. I can`t see him buying a RHD RS for £23k unless its a complete nail that will cost a fortune in bringing up to standard.
I have never heard of a stock 964RS putting out anywhere near 290bhp and it would be a big mistake to purchase one expecting anywhere near this if the motor is stock. 9M is on record as stating that the chipped/cup pipe/airfilter 964RS`s he has dyno`d generally put out 275-280bhp , although this is a common and inexpensive mod. My C2 has(just) more than the 295bhp max you suggest (tested by 9m)and as you say Motec give upto 324bhp; which means a power advantage of 20-60bhp which is significant on track
Even with lightweight seats and exhaust and stripping the cabin to some extent an RS will be lighter but not so light as to make up its power disadvantage
The handling of an RS on track is great for a road car but in truth the suspension is to soft for track work and most racers use much higher spring rates than that fitted to an RS. DanH wants a road car as well and the linear rate springs of an RS are harsher than the progressive rate springs available but are no higher a spring rate. The monoballs also add to the harsh ride and although they improve the handling the advantage is marginal ( and can be fitted to a C2)and its debatable as to wether the drop in ride quality on the road is worth it.
The point is you will get a faster, on track and road, better riding RHD car for the same price as LHD RS , which leaves a lot of spare cash for trackdays
.The car can be modded to your own taste. The depreciation point is well made but buying a mint RS and extensively tracking it will either cost in maintenace anyway or distroy the inherent value.
>> Edited by tony.t on Wednesday 24th September 20:39
domster said:
" you can get RHD 964RSs for 30k."
Pray tell where Dom. Ones I've seen are all up at the £40K mark, or close.
"These cars were the basis of the Cup Series race cars"
Sorry old boy, I'm going to have to take you to task on this...bollox.........the RS is the spawn of the Cup Car, just a softened up racer really....First 964 Carrera Cup series was 1990......
"If you are into trackdays, the whole 'harsh ride' thing is a bit overstated."
On track, harsh ride doesn't matter, but take it on a UK B road.............
Rgds
Melv
Tony, I sold my RS to Nigel Parry (he now has/had? a mint green RSR - on cover of PP some months ago) and he called me to tell me he had it dyno'd at 290 bhp - I had it rebuilt by Martin Harvey to completely standard spec after buzzing it. Incidentally, he sold it on (to MCP) because it was too nice a car to track, for the very reasons you give in your posting.
Frankly I just don't understand what the issue is with the ride quality of the RS - sure, when the car was launched in '91 everyone was criticising the ride quality, but that was before the advent of rubber band tyres and German tuners' ideas about big wheels and non-compliant suspension. Nowadays I'd say that the Hartge/AMG/Schnitzer/Evo 6/Scooby conditioned drivers wouldn't consider the ride quality of an RS 964 particularly harsh.
But back to Dan's requirements - a 968 or 944 has vitually ideal weight distribution and a 968 CS is a far easier car IMHO to drive fast round a track than an RS and in one of those you can drift to your heart's content Dan. Or buy a Caterham Superlight for £13k, adjust the pedals to suit (I did on my SLR - matter of no more than 15 mniutes) and steer the thing on the throttle wherever you want to go
Frankly I just don't understand what the issue is with the ride quality of the RS - sure, when the car was launched in '91 everyone was criticising the ride quality, but that was before the advent of rubber band tyres and German tuners' ideas about big wheels and non-compliant suspension. Nowadays I'd say that the Hartge/AMG/Schnitzer/Evo 6/Scooby conditioned drivers wouldn't consider the ride quality of an RS 964 particularly harsh.
But back to Dan's requirements - a 968 or 944 has vitually ideal weight distribution and a 968 CS is a far easier car IMHO to drive fast round a track than an RS and in one of those you can drift to your heart's content Dan. Or buy a Caterham Superlight for £13k, adjust the pedals to suit (I did on my SLR - matter of no more than 15 mniutes) and steer the thing on the throttle wherever you want to go
Rubystone
Did you have the RS dyno`d before you sold it? The mint green RS clubsport was reputed to be puting out 290bhp as well. Funny that, the same bloke owning the only two RS`s I have ever heard of with over 290bhp. I just thought it spurious to suggest 964RS`s routinely put out anywhere near 290bhp in stock trim and that it was wrong of Domster to suggest so.
The stock C2/4 came in for some critisism of its ride quality at launch so the RS had no chance. To be honest I don`t think I have actually been in a worse riding car ( but I have lived a sheltered life)
I had a 944S2 and they can be made into great handling cars but the standard suspension is too soft and so its either a club sport/Mo30 option or modifications. The NA models lack power and are difficult to get more HP out of easily; the turbos produce good power with a rechip but are, well, turbos.
I hired a caterham for a day in July at Oulton and it opened my eyes but they`re not exactly daily drivers but £30k opens up thee possibility of two cars, say a 964C2 and a superlight
Did you have the RS dyno`d before you sold it? The mint green RS clubsport was reputed to be puting out 290bhp as well. Funny that, the same bloke owning the only two RS`s I have ever heard of with over 290bhp. I just thought it spurious to suggest 964RS`s routinely put out anywhere near 290bhp in stock trim and that it was wrong of Domster to suggest so.
The stock C2/4 came in for some critisism of its ride quality at launch so the RS had no chance. To be honest I don`t think I have actually been in a worse riding car ( but I have lived a sheltered life)
I had a 944S2 and they can be made into great handling cars but the standard suspension is too soft and so its either a club sport/Mo30 option or modifications. The NA models lack power and are difficult to get more HP out of easily; the turbos produce good power with a rechip but are, well, turbos.
I hired a caterham for a day in July at Oulton and it opened my eyes but they`re not exactly daily drivers but £30k opens up thee possibility of two cars, say a 964C2 and a superlight
"DanH wants a RHD trackday/daily driver Porsche for £30-35k and most RHD 964RS I have seen advertised recently are at best at the top end of this budget. I can`t see him buying a RHD RS for £23k unless its a complete nail that will cost a fortune in bringing up to standard."
You CAN get a RHD 964RS for that budget. May not be the best one in the world which is why I advised to reconsider LHD as driving wrong sided is no great shakes. And you might get a LHD 964RS for 23k that may NOT be a nail. Chances are ones less than 20 will be, but at 23 it might be high miles or cosmetically imperfect, but still a great car and mechanically sound.
"I have never heard of a stock 964RS putting out anywhere near 290bhp and it would be a big mistake to purchase one expecting anywhere near this if the motor is stock."
Well, this is what 9M told me IIRC - the highest he has seen from a stock motor was between 270-290bhp. The 260bhp estimate is well known as being pessimistic. Yes, you should never expect that power, but it may be there. Varies from car to car apparently.
"My C2 has(just) more than the 295bhp max you suggest (tested by 9m)"
Well it won't be above 300bhp because of the injectors. So your engine makes about 297bhp then? Sorry I was so wildly out in my estimate
"and as you say Motec give upto 324bhp; which means a power advantage of 20-60bhp which is significant on track "
Which CAN be significant on track. Your generalisations are dangerous, especially when comparing a 964RS with a modded 964C2, which are substantially different cars.
"Even with lightweight seats and exhaust and stripping the cabin to some extent an RS will be lighter but not so light as to make up its power disadvantage"
Based on what evidence? It's a good theory, but we are assuming that 964RSs make 260bhp and that you Motec a 964C2 up to the hilt. In real world terms I bet that a C2 with MAF would be slower and one with Motec would struggle to get away.
"The handling of an RS on track is great for a road car but in truth the suspension is to soft for track work and most racers use much higher spring rates than that fitted to an RS."
Too soft for track work? I beg to disagree. Racers may stiffen the suspension further and piss about with camber, but I'd hardly say the 964RS suspension is too soft for trackwork out of the box.
"The point is you will get a faster, on track and road, better riding RHD car for the same price as LHD RS , which leaves a lot of spare cash for trackdays .The car can be modded to your own taste."
OK, we will agree to disagree about it being quicker. There are too many hypotheses floating around. I just doubt it very much, after having driven bothe 964C2 and 964RS. The C2 will certainly ride better and may be fun to mod, as well But what about depreciation? A modded C2 will be worth little more than the base price, whereas RS prices coul even climb.... which leads to...
"The depreciation point is well made but buying a mint RS and extensively tracking it will either cost in maintenace anyway or distroy the inherent value."
Not from what I've seen. There are few mint RSs in existence these days. Many have track time or accident damage. If they are well looked after you can track the nuts off them and they will still be worth the money. The maintenance point isn't as true with the 964RS as with other road cars, because it is created to be so much more durable on track.
Regards
Dom
You CAN get a RHD 964RS for that budget. May not be the best one in the world which is why I advised to reconsider LHD as driving wrong sided is no great shakes. And you might get a LHD 964RS for 23k that may NOT be a nail. Chances are ones less than 20 will be, but at 23 it might be high miles or cosmetically imperfect, but still a great car and mechanically sound.
"I have never heard of a stock 964RS putting out anywhere near 290bhp and it would be a big mistake to purchase one expecting anywhere near this if the motor is stock."
Well, this is what 9M told me IIRC - the highest he has seen from a stock motor was between 270-290bhp. The 260bhp estimate is well known as being pessimistic. Yes, you should never expect that power, but it may be there. Varies from car to car apparently.
"My C2 has(just) more than the 295bhp max you suggest (tested by 9m)"
Well it won't be above 300bhp because of the injectors. So your engine makes about 297bhp then? Sorry I was so wildly out in my estimate
"and as you say Motec give upto 324bhp; which means a power advantage of 20-60bhp which is significant on track "
Which CAN be significant on track. Your generalisations are dangerous, especially when comparing a 964RS with a modded 964C2, which are substantially different cars.
"Even with lightweight seats and exhaust and stripping the cabin to some extent an RS will be lighter but not so light as to make up its power disadvantage"
Based on what evidence? It's a good theory, but we are assuming that 964RSs make 260bhp and that you Motec a 964C2 up to the hilt. In real world terms I bet that a C2 with MAF would be slower and one with Motec would struggle to get away.
"The handling of an RS on track is great for a road car but in truth the suspension is to soft for track work and most racers use much higher spring rates than that fitted to an RS."
Too soft for track work? I beg to disagree. Racers may stiffen the suspension further and piss about with camber, but I'd hardly say the 964RS suspension is too soft for trackwork out of the box.
"The point is you will get a faster, on track and road, better riding RHD car for the same price as LHD RS , which leaves a lot of spare cash for trackdays
.The car can be modded to your own taste." OK, we will agree to disagree about it being quicker. There are too many hypotheses floating around. I just doubt it very much, after having driven bothe 964C2 and 964RS. The C2 will certainly ride better and may be fun to mod, as well
But what about depreciation? A modded C2 will be worth little more than the base price, whereas RS prices coul even climb.... which leads to... "The depreciation point is well made but buying a mint RS and extensively tracking it will either cost in maintenace anyway or distroy the inherent value."
Not from what I've seen. There are few mint RSs in existence these days. Many have track time or accident damage. If they are well looked after you can track the nuts off them and they will still be worth the money. The maintenance point isn't as true with the 964RS as with other road cars, because it is created to be so much more durable on track.
Regards
Dom
tony.t said:
I hired a caterham for a day in July at Oulton and it opened my eyes but they`re not exactly daily drivers but £30k opens up thee possibility of two cars, say a 964C2 and a superlight
A Caterham and another car is a good point.
It is not wrong for me to suggest that a stock 964RS can produce up to 290bhp as standard, when both 9m and rubystone have said themselves that it is possible. I don't believe it applies to all cars and never have said so.
My main point is that I don't believe (IMO) that a souped up C2 will necessarily be a) faster, b) a better track car or c) a wiser investment that even a standard RS.
PS Melv - fair enough re Cup/RS timelines. Get easily confused when it comes to the boring stuff like history
Before 9m mods Scaramanga was dynoed at 293bhp. Turns out it had a Cup ECU under the seat, obviously fitted by a previous owner. That plus Cup bypass pipe and Cup airbox - otherwise no other mods. Significantly healthier than the "stock" 260, and I didn't even know
And now, of course, has around 340-350bhp depending on external temperature. Reason for vagueness: could only dyno the modded engine in the heatwave in July/Aug when it was 35 deg C outside and it "only" made 320ish, climbing 1 bhp per deg C drop as the evening wore on and the sun set. So 340-350bhp is an estimate at the moment.
And now, of course, has around 340-350bhp depending on external temperature. Reason for vagueness: could only dyno the modded engine in the heatwave in July/Aug when it was 35 deg C outside and it "only" made 320ish, climbing 1 bhp per deg C drop as the evening wore on and the sun set. So 340-350bhp is an estimate at the moment.
Domster,
“You CAN get a RHD 964RS for that budget. May not be the best one in the world which is why I advised to reconsider LHD as driving wrong sided is no great shakes. And you might get a LHD 964RS for 23k that may NOT be a nail. Chances are ones less than 20 will be, but at 23 it might be high miles or cosmetically imperfect, but still a great car and mechanically sound.”
I previously posted a RHD was available for the budget. I said a £23k RHD would be a nail. LHD is cheaper than RHD but DanH specified RHD. I have no objections to people owning LHD.
To quote 9M,
“For anyone reading out there I am Colin from 9m Racing (formerly 930 Motorsport)and I am fascinated by all the "misinformation" that is banded about so hopefully this will go a little of the way to helping you all decide what actually works and what does not. As a Professional Engineer the only person that I ever have to prove anything to is myself, you all can make your own minds up!
The following is based entirely on fact, from testing cars at our own test facility and comparing results in black and white. Anybody who wants to see these results is welcome to visit our premises and see for themselves but sorry, I'm not posting them for the competition to "borrow".
We work primarily with the 964RS, but the results are directly applicable to the standard 964, the engines are basically the same.
The best 964RS engine that we have tested fitted with the ubiquitous chip, large throttle body, K&N, cup pipe & cat bypass ran on the rollers at 290bhp. The last one we did (last week) came in with 287bhp @ flywheel and 254bhp @ wheels. This is pretty much in line with most RS engines, we have tested over 10 in the last year and all have posted between 280 and 290bhp.
I have tested two cars with a mass flow conversion, Tony Taylor's 964 and a 964RS. Both had 298bhp, Tony's with the AMD conversion with early cast alloy manifolds and the RS with a.n.other conversion and plastic manifolds with a larger throttle body.
We have results for three Motec conversions; the first one gave 324bhp and 400Nm (290bhp @ wheels) with K&N airbox, large t.b., cat bypass & cup pipe; the second one gave 310bhp & 395Nm with same parts and an engine that has 8% cylinder leakage (probably caused by the overfuelling a.n.other mass flow kit); the third one posted 318bhp & 398Nm (288bhp @ wheels. Other cars that we have done have not been dyno'd but had exactly the same performance on the road.”
Porsche quote 260 bhp for the 964RS and while this is generally accepted as a minimium, IMHO 290 isn`t going to happen from a stock RS, modified yes, stock no.
“Which CAN be significant on track. Your generalisations are dangerous, especially when comparing a 964RS with a modded 964C2, which are substantially different cars.”
I am aware of the differences between an RS and a C2 but to say they are substantially different is an exaggeration there is far more commonality than differences. A C2 can be modded in the areas of difference to a better than RS standard.
“Based on what evidence? It's a good theory, but we are assuming that 964RSs make 260bhp and that you Motec a 964C2 up to the hilt. In real world terms I bet that a C2 with MAF would be slower and one with Motec would struggle to get away.”
Based on the evidence of passing 964RS`s on track.
The RS is a better bet from a resale point of view but maintenance will be similar to a C2. C2 upgrades can be made when replacing worn parts. A heavily tracked car RS or not will cost more to maintain
and accidents, buzzing the engine can occurr to either and are a real risk. Crashing the C2 will cost a lot less than an RS.
“You CAN get a RHD 964RS for that budget. May not be the best one in the world which is why I advised to reconsider LHD as driving wrong sided is no great shakes. And you might get a LHD 964RS for 23k that may NOT be a nail. Chances are ones less than 20 will be, but at 23 it might be high miles or cosmetically imperfect, but still a great car and mechanically sound.”
I previously posted a RHD was available for the budget. I said a £23k RHD would be a nail. LHD is cheaper than RHD but DanH specified RHD. I have no objections to people owning LHD.
To quote 9M,
“For anyone reading out there I am Colin from 9m Racing (formerly 930 Motorsport)and I am fascinated by all the "misinformation" that is banded about so hopefully this will go a little of the way to helping you all decide what actually works and what does not. As a Professional Engineer the only person that I ever have to prove anything to is myself, you all can make your own minds up!
The following is based entirely on fact, from testing cars at our own test facility and comparing results in black and white. Anybody who wants to see these results is welcome to visit our premises and see for themselves but sorry, I'm not posting them for the competition to "borrow".
We work primarily with the 964RS, but the results are directly applicable to the standard 964, the engines are basically the same.
The best 964RS engine that we have tested fitted with the ubiquitous chip, large throttle body, K&N, cup pipe & cat bypass ran on the rollers at 290bhp. The last one we did (last week) came in with 287bhp @ flywheel and 254bhp @ wheels. This is pretty much in line with most RS engines, we have tested over 10 in the last year and all have posted between 280 and 290bhp.
I have tested two cars with a mass flow conversion, Tony Taylor's 964 and a 964RS. Both had 298bhp, Tony's with the AMD conversion with early cast alloy manifolds and the RS with a.n.other conversion and plastic manifolds with a larger throttle body.
We have results for three Motec conversions; the first one gave 324bhp and 400Nm (290bhp @ wheels) with K&N airbox, large t.b., cat bypass & cup pipe; the second one gave 310bhp & 395Nm with same parts and an engine that has 8% cylinder leakage (probably caused by the overfuelling a.n.other mass flow kit); the third one posted 318bhp & 398Nm (288bhp @ wheels. Other cars that we have done have not been dyno'd but had exactly the same performance on the road.”
Porsche quote 260 bhp for the 964RS and while this is generally accepted as a minimium, IMHO 290 isn`t going to happen from a stock RS, modified yes, stock no.
“Which CAN be significant on track. Your generalisations are dangerous, especially when comparing a 964RS with a modded 964C2, which are substantially different cars.”
I am aware of the differences between an RS and a C2 but to say they are substantially different is an exaggeration there is far more commonality than differences. A C2 can be modded in the areas of difference to a better than RS standard.
“Based on what evidence? It's a good theory, but we are assuming that 964RSs make 260bhp and that you Motec a 964C2 up to the hilt. In real world terms I bet that a C2 with MAF would be slower and one with Motec would struggle to get away.”
Based on the evidence of passing 964RS`s on track.
The RS is a better bet from a resale point of view but maintenance will be similar to a C2. C2 upgrades can be made when replacing worn parts. A heavily tracked car RS or not will cost more to maintain
and accidents, buzzing the engine can occurr to either and are a real risk. Crashing the C2 will cost a lot less than an RS.
I've never ever seen a stock RS or C2 produce 290bhp & I have been involved with quite a few.
I would go so far as to say its just not possible.
With chipped & cat bypass yes its close & with a hotfilm system that is working properly (the system does not enjoy a 100% sucess rate & needs carefull setting up) you can with sub £2k mods & very careful fiddling get very very close to 300bhp & that was from a C4 not even an RS.
You've also got to bear in mind not only the the variation of differnet roling roads, but also as mentioned the weather, the type & efficiencey of the cooling fans in the dyno cells. This can make a huge difference in the power figs (esp for turbo cars)
Also there are one hell of a lot of correction factors that can be applyed to your dyno plots that make a heck of a lot of difference & some rolling roads are well know for being very generous with power figures (that no other rolling road can seen to reproduce) for cars tuned at that particular establishment!
Also for various reasons some dynos are ok to read your at the wheels figures but then make an estimate at what the transmission losses maybe! which makes for very interesting comparisions.
ref chassis mod & RS vs C2 that is a subject best saved for when its not midnight & I'm not knackered
I would go so far as to say its just not possible.
With chipped & cat bypass yes its close & with a hotfilm system that is working properly (the system does not enjoy a 100% sucess rate & needs carefull setting up) you can with sub £2k mods & very careful fiddling get very very close to 300bhp & that was from a C4 not even an RS.
You've also got to bear in mind not only the the variation of differnet roling roads, but also as mentioned the weather, the type & efficiencey of the cooling fans in the dyno cells. This can make a huge difference in the power figs (esp for turbo cars)
Also there are one hell of a lot of correction factors that can be applyed to your dyno plots that make a heck of a lot of difference & some rolling roads are well know for being very generous with power figures (that no other rolling road can seen to reproduce) for cars tuned at that particular establishment!
Also for various reasons some dynos are ok to read your at the wheels figures but then make an estimate at what the transmission losses maybe! which makes for very interesting comparisions.
ref chassis mod & RS vs C2 that is a subject best saved for when its not midnight & I'm not knackered
Mostly fair points Tony, apart from this one:
Because that depends on the driver, doesn't it? I am sure, with no disrespect to DAZ who is handy around the ring and drives an X50 996TT, that Euan (SFV) could probably pass him on the Nurburgring with just 240bhp from his 968CS. A 200+ bhp difference. There are so many variables, claiming you pass RSs on track doesn't count for a lot. I've passed Caterhams at Castle Combe in a 968CS - I doubt I'd do so if they were driven properly
As far as this whole 260-290bhp out of the box question goes, I may have been wrong with the upper figure of 290 or may have got it confused with a figure for a remapped/cat bypassed RS. Besides, we all know how unreliable rolling road figures can be. My point was simply that you were claiming a gulf of up to 60bhp which I felt was misleading... say a stock RS engine can do 270bhp and you hot film a C2 to 298bhp, that is less than 30bhp... sod all in real world terms. Look at the gearing of the G50/10 and compare it to a normal C2 box. The closer ratios are probably worth 30bhp out of a corner in themselves.
Also, I concede that you could argue that a 964RS is fundamentally close to a 964C2 in terms of shared parts, but so many of the dynamically-important parts are NOT shared, that the character of the car and the way it drives are completely different. With mods, you could replicate the feel, no doubt, which is fair enough. But from an ownership point of view, would it ever feel as special as an RS, with the unique character given to it by its weight loss programme?
In all honesty tho', for driftability, a RHD 968CS, maybe without M030 to keep it softer, would probably be the best car for the trackday criteria. However, this discussion of modded C2 vs RS is an interesting one
Regards
Dom
tony.t said:
“Based on what evidence? It's a good theory, but we are assuming that 964RSs make 260bhp and that you Motec a 964C2 up to the hilt. In real world terms I bet that a C2 with MAF would be slower and one with Motec would struggle to get away.”
Based on the evidence of passing 964RS`s on track.
Because that depends on the driver, doesn't it? I am sure, with no disrespect to DAZ who is handy around the ring and drives an X50 996TT, that Euan (SFV) could probably pass him on the Nurburgring with just 240bhp from his 968CS. A 200+ bhp difference. There are so many variables, claiming you pass RSs on track doesn't count for a lot. I've passed Caterhams at Castle Combe in a 968CS - I doubt I'd do so if they were driven properly
As far as this whole 260-290bhp out of the box question goes, I may have been wrong with the upper figure of 290 or may have got it confused with a figure for a remapped/cat bypassed RS. Besides, we all know how unreliable rolling road figures can be. My point was simply that you were claiming a gulf of up to 60bhp which I felt was misleading... say a stock RS engine can do 270bhp and you hot film a C2 to 298bhp, that is less than 30bhp... sod all in real world terms. Look at the gearing of the G50/10 and compare it to a normal C2 box. The closer ratios are probably worth 30bhp out of a corner in themselves.
Also, I concede that you could argue that a 964RS is fundamentally close to a 964C2 in terms of shared parts, but so many of the dynamically-important parts are NOT shared, that the character of the car and the way it drives are completely different. With mods, you could replicate the feel, no doubt, which is fair enough. But from an ownership point of view, would it ever feel as special as an RS, with the unique character given to it by its weight loss programme?
In all honesty tho', for driftability, a RHD 968CS, maybe without M030 to keep it softer, would probably be the best car for the trackday criteria. However, this discussion of modded C2 vs RS is an interesting one
Regards
Dom
interesting thread, sorry if this takes it off on a tangent
what are peoples opinions on the "driftability" of non-M030 (i.e no LSD) 968's,
i was always told that an LSD is near vital for easy, predictable drifing, as my rear tyres are wearing down and the weather decreasing ive been having more 'moments' in my Sport and whilst its prefectly controllable as its communicative it still feels a bit snappy and the car regaining/losing grip a bit inconsistently,
im due a suspension change soon and currently have decided on standard dampers instead of the stiffer M030 or koni yellows but will combine with the M030 roll bars which might help provide more predictable sliding
most people comment that M030 is a touch too stiff for road use, but i have a fear that the new standard dampers will seem too soft for me as my current ones are too tired to judge subjectively (ultimate high speed control is ok just that initial feel over bad roads is very crashy)
what are peoples opinions on the "driftability" of non-M030 (i.e no LSD) 968's,
i was always told that an LSD is near vital for easy, predictable drifing, as my rear tyres are wearing down and the weather decreasing ive been having more 'moments' in my Sport and whilst its prefectly controllable as its communicative it still feels a bit snappy and the car regaining/losing grip a bit inconsistently,
im due a suspension change soon and currently have decided on standard dampers instead of the stiffer M030 or koni yellows but will combine with the M030 roll bars which might help provide more predictable sliding
most people comment that M030 is a touch too stiff for road use, but i have a fear that the new standard dampers will seem too soft for me as my current ones are too tired to judge subjectively (ultimate high speed control is ok just that initial feel over bad roads is very crashy)
I drove Scottster's non-MO30 968CS around Castle Combe and found that the softer suspension made it quite friendly on the limit, but I'm sure a stiffer LSDd M030 car would be more precise. I wasn't so much as drifting as just driving on the limit, so wasn't provoking oversteer etc. My problem with LSDs is that sometimes they cause a sharper break away under power. In the hands of an expert driver an LSD would be preferable, it might make it more dangerous for a ham fisted eejit like me.
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