Discussion
Henry-F said:
Oh yes I forgot - and the Alfa SZ - one of the ugliest most useless cars ever built. Only an opinion of course !!
Henry
It could be ugly to the beholder, for sure.
But define useless?
I think it is probably no more useless than many other two seat sports cars, especially after the late Will Hoy drove me around Donington in one and said with no exaggeration "this is the best handling RWD production car I have ever driven."
If you like great handling RWD track machinery (like me) then it is far from useless. Maybe the Cayenne is making you soft, Henners
That`s more like it !! Where to start.
As I said chaps, I thoroughly understand why someone would want to buy a race bred car even though they are not going to race it - I was just hoping those people might reciprocate with the 4 by 4`s.
Actually a lot of the styling is governed by mechanical necessity, particulaly relating to the front of the car. Porsche had 2 issues engine cooling and high speed aerodynamics to deal with.
Starck is a man who possibly favours the form over the function sometimes, and as such his designs rarely perform as well as they might. It is always a balance though. The engineer might engineer you a better lemon squeezer but I doubt you`d want it in your kitchen.
Rietveld, one can only assume, was a better architect than joiner as is shown by the nievity of his carpentry skills. The Porsche design ethos has always been to, when in doubt, favour the funtion and then steer the form to suit.
Whether or not you can race a car out of the box is not the issue although actually there are 2 964`s and a 993 which are used as daily cars that race.
My argument was that if it was wrong to use a 4 by 4 on the road is it not wrong to then develop and use a race bred car off the track.
By AFN (now no longer with us) I assume you were reffering to "The Porsche centre Reading" (I think it`s called). You can walk in and buy a GT3 cup car fill it with gas and race. Is it right that Porsche "soften" the GT3 cup car and then sell it as a GT3 ?
The very fact that someone does even one trackday in a car means that they can justify buying a car that is capable of substancial track use, but again does this not also apply to the "Chelsea Tractors" as I believe they were reffered to.
Surely what`s good for the goose is good for the gander. Or isn`t it ?
Henry
As I said chaps, I thoroughly understand why someone would want to buy a race bred car even though they are not going to race it - I was just hoping those people might reciprocate with the 4 by 4`s.
Actually a lot of the styling is governed by mechanical necessity, particulaly relating to the front of the car. Porsche had 2 issues engine cooling and high speed aerodynamics to deal with.
Starck is a man who possibly favours the form over the function sometimes, and as such his designs rarely perform as well as they might. It is always a balance though. The engineer might engineer you a better lemon squeezer but I doubt you`d want it in your kitchen.
Rietveld, one can only assume, was a better architect than joiner as is shown by the nievity of his carpentry skills. The Porsche design ethos has always been to, when in doubt, favour the funtion and then steer the form to suit.
Whether or not you can race a car out of the box is not the issue although actually there are 2 964`s and a 993 which are used as daily cars that race.
My argument was that if it was wrong to use a 4 by 4 on the road is it not wrong to then develop and use a race bred car off the track.
By AFN (now no longer with us) I assume you were reffering to "The Porsche centre Reading" (I think it`s called). You can walk in and buy a GT3 cup car fill it with gas and race. Is it right that Porsche "soften" the GT3 cup car and then sell it as a GT3 ?
The very fact that someone does even one trackday in a car means that they can justify buying a car that is capable of substancial track use, but again does this not also apply to the "Chelsea Tractors" as I believe they were reffered to.
Surely what`s good for the goose is good for the gander. Or isn`t it ?
Henry
Re: Will Hoys comments, would that be the same Will Hoy who was being paid to say those kind words ?
They are fragile, when ever I`ve seen them on the track slow - (remember the rules here, not in "as raced" guise but in "as bought by punters" guise), and hideously expensive if you ever need any bits for them.
H.
They are fragile, when ever I`ve seen them on the track slow - (remember the rules here, not in "as raced" guise but in "as bought by punters" guise), and hideously expensive if you ever need any bits for them.
H.
If the KN is function over form why did they not design it more of the Audi Allroad quattro guise than a true high sided 4x4 for surely its function is to carry 5 occupants at good speed in great comfort...
Its never going to cut it with a Range Rover so why the high sidedness?
Just curious really...
Its never going to cut it with a Range Rover so why the high sidedness?
Just curious really...
I think Rietveld probably screwed together better chairs than Alfa did cars 
I'm not sure how much Will's relationship with Alfa had on his opinion. Difficult to tell, but I took it in good faith. It certainly did a few laps at Donington tremendously well from my memory (although may have fallen apart in the paddock afterwards).
The simple fact is you are trying to justify 4x4 use by comparing it to race car use, which is an interesting argument, but I'm not sure it holds water. You CAN use the race car abilities of a Porsche sports car on the open road (even if unwise), yet the 4x4 capabilities of the Cayenne will never be tested on the tarmac you pay your road tax for.
To be honest, I have nothing against 4x4s anyway. Use a ride on lawnmower for the school run or a JCB for towing, no complaints from me as long as I'm not stuck behind you. My only gripe is that however marvellous the Cayenne is, it is still a dog ugly car to many (including me). But like dog ugly dogs, these creatures are often lovable and their owners defend them to the hilt.
It is merely a shame that Porsche missed the opportunity to make the Cayenne a looker - in universally accepted terms, and not just in the eyes of a handful of Basalt Black KN owners here.
That would be like finding your Starck lemon squeezer actually works well - bonus!
PS Is Basalt Black to KNs what Polar Silver is to Boxsters? Is it because it looks less 'peculiar' in a dark colour?
I'm not sure how much Will's relationship with Alfa had on his opinion. Difficult to tell, but I took it in good faith. It certainly did a few laps at Donington tremendously well from my memory (although may have fallen apart in the paddock afterwards). The simple fact is you are trying to justify 4x4 use by comparing it to race car use, which is an interesting argument, but I'm not sure it holds water. You CAN use the race car abilities of a Porsche sports car on the open road (even if unwise), yet the 4x4 capabilities of the Cayenne will never be tested on the tarmac you pay your road tax for.
To be honest, I have nothing against 4x4s anyway. Use a ride on lawnmower for the school run or a JCB for towing, no complaints from me as long as I'm not stuck behind you. My only gripe is that however marvellous the Cayenne is, it is still a dog ugly car to many (including me). But like dog ugly dogs, these creatures are often lovable and their owners defend them to the hilt.
It is merely a shame that Porsche missed the opportunity to make the Cayenne a looker - in universally accepted terms, and not just in the eyes of a handful of Basalt Black KN owners here.
That would be like finding your Starck lemon squeezer actually works well - bonus!
PS Is Basalt Black to KNs what Polar Silver is to Boxsters? Is it because it looks less 'peculiar' in a dark colour?
My view.
have just came in to middle age, the need to go back to my youth in car terms be came far to tempting. Have had most of the hot hatch range, fast mercs and a 944 my first porsche at age 22, I thought I had made it. So i bought a 911/964 in june of this year. I have a ball and chain and offsring at home so perhaps this was not the best choice. But I wanted pure fun and to feel the excitment that i got from my cars when i was younger. I also have a 4 x 4 (3.2 v6 Fontera) Sure its not the best 4 x 4 but has great power for a big car. Having driven my 911 for a while I cant wait to get back in the fontera, the confort, the toys, the joy of an automatic. I just wish it was a kn. Middle age is a funny thing we want the cars we wanted when we where kids, The kn has it all, the right badge, power that middle age can handle, the wife can go shopping in it. And i am sure makes you smlie every time you drive it. Un like my 911, when i get out of that my dentures are loose and I am lucky if i can get the kids happymeals in the boot.
Kn`s Fantastics
have just came in to middle age, the need to go back to my youth in car terms be came far to tempting. Have had most of the hot hatch range, fast mercs and a 944 my first porsche at age 22, I thought I had made it. So i bought a 911/964 in june of this year. I have a ball and chain and offsring at home so perhaps this was not the best choice. But I wanted pure fun and to feel the excitment that i got from my cars when i was younger. I also have a 4 x 4 (3.2 v6 Fontera) Sure its not the best 4 x 4 but has great power for a big car. Having driven my 911 for a while I cant wait to get back in the fontera, the confort, the toys, the joy of an automatic. I just wish it was a kn. Middle age is a funny thing we want the cars we wanted when we where kids, The kn has it all, the right badge, power that middle age can handle, the wife can go shopping in it. And i am sure makes you smlie every time you drive it. Un like my 911, when i get out of that my dentures are loose and I am lucky if i can get the kids happymeals in the boot.
Kn`s Fantastics
clubsport said:
Henry, why do people buy RS & GT3 even though they are not competing in them , only doing the occasional trackday?
You said it was the same reason people buy large 4wd cars, but i got a bit lost on that as it is a waste of time getting kids,Xmas presents & a tow bar on an RS.
They buy a GT3 & so forth because they like what it stands for and may use a bit of the handling / performance on odd occasions.
The K-N owner likes the thought of a safe assertive car on the road and may use some of it`s abilities from time to time.
Henry
fair, i thought you would have had a more complex explanation that!
For me having tried stndard pork, the RS/GT3 appeal on the basis,,when you can use them in their true enviroment,they are nothing short of a reveletion.
Also the lack of depreciation is a factor to consider.
Stuck with an RS at the mom, I wanted to go with the GT3 experience, but could not wait the quoted 15-18mths for delivery, even though you can now get them at list i am less fussed than I was.
On the KN Porsche are literally laughing all the way to the bank, considering they did a minor facelift on the 996 after 4 1/2 years,the KN may stay in it's current guise until sales start to slow.it will be interesting to see if the next update gets the corporate 997 look front end?
For me having tried stndard pork, the RS/GT3 appeal on the basis,,when you can use them in their true enviroment,they are nothing short of a reveletion.
Also the lack of depreciation is a factor to consider.
Stuck with an RS at the mom, I wanted to go with the GT3 experience, but could not wait the quoted 15-18mths for delivery, even though you can now get them at list i am less fussed than I was.
On the KN Porsche are literally laughing all the way to the bank, considering they did a minor facelift on the 996 after 4 1/2 years,the KN may stay in it's current guise until sales start to slow.it will be interesting to see if the next update gets the corporate 997 look front end?
Whats interesting is how much money they must be making on KN Turbos. If they can make a profit on a Cayenne V6 at £34k, how much extra does a turbo cost to make given that the only differences really are a few trim bits, some electronics and the turbos/intercoolers. I bet a very large proportion of the extra £34k of price above the V6 is pure profit.
Personally I'm getting more used to the looks of the KN, but only in black, since it hides all the plastic parts (I also hate any chrome on them). Its a shame that having tested the VW Tourag V10 Twin-Turbo Diesel that the inescapable conclusion is that VW is better looking and has a better interior.
The trouble is that the Porker is the one that I want to be sat next to my GT2 in the garage, since it has the right badge on it and also probably handles better...... I am avoiding test-drives of the KN as I feel that an order would swiftly follow.....
Guy
I have next years event dates for the All Marques Off Road (AMOR) club, see: www.amorclub.co.uk for a flavour of this years.....so who is going to bring their Cayenne along then??? 
Melv
Melv
As is the K-N in it`s right enviroment. Re: laughing all the way to the bank Porsche have spent a couple of quid on developement which needs to be reclaimed !
One of the benefits of buying any classic is that it does not change with the wind making it obsolete from the moment you take delivery.
I sincerely hope Porsche are profitable, it will mean they are able to continue supplying fine vehicles for the forseeable future.
Henry
One of the benefits of buying any classic is that it does not change with the wind making it obsolete from the moment you take delivery.
I sincerely hope Porsche are profitable, it will mean they are able to continue supplying fine vehicles for the forseeable future.
Henry
Melv said:
I have next years event dates for the All Marques Off Road (AMOR) club, see: www.amorclub.co.uk for a flavour of this years.....so who is going to bring their Cayenne along then???
Melv
Won't be many new Range Rovers either I think!
Steve
henry-F said:
As is the K-N in it`s right enviroment. Re: laughing all the way to the bank Porsche have spent a couple of quid on developement which needs to be reclaimed !
One of the benefits of buying any classic is that it does not change with the wind making it obsolete from the moment you take delivery.
I sincerely hope Porsche are profitable, it will mean they are able to continue supplying fine vehicles for the forseeable future.
Henry
In view of the state that Ford are in at the moment.....lets hope you are right Henry.
Steve
>> Edited by sb-1 on Thursday 4th December 16:36
GuyR said:
Whats interesting is how much money they must be making on KN Turbos. If they can make a profit on a Cayenne V6 at £34k, how much extra does a turbo cost to make given that the only differences really are a few trim bits, some electronics and the turbos/intercoolers. I bet a very large proportion of the extra £34k of price above the V6 is pure profit.
Personally I'm getting more used to the looks of the KN, but only in black, since it hides all the plastic parts (I also hate any chrome on them). Its a shame that having tested the VW Tourag V10 Twin-Turbo Diesel that the inescapable conclusion is that VW is better looking and has a better interior.
The trouble is that the Porker is the one that I want to be sat next to my GT2 in the garage, since it has the right badge on it and also probably handles better...... I am avoiding test-drives of the KN as I feel that an order would swiftly follow.....
Guy
Guy , what has suprised me is the money they must make out of 996 cars, consider the shared parts with a Boxster, the development over xx years. the 996 standard versions & Turbo both cost more than the equivalent K-N versions. There must be huge fixed & development costs to overcome with the K-N so they priced it so it would succeed..the 996 is priced on the basis that it is already a success.
It would be interesting if Porsche made a 464 bhp 2wd Cayenne GT2,,now that would be a true off roader
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