Timewasters when selling Porsches
Discussion
Lets put Henry on the spot....So how much will you offer for my 996 (its on the classified section).
The last time I asked you to value a car for me (2.5 years ago) you offered me £20k (it was a LHD 993)..I sold it to another trader who was happy to buy the car for £23k and sold it in a couple of weeks...funnily enough the car appeared on your website a year later for £26k. I remember you describing it as exceptional. I felt extremely insulted at your ridiculous offer...I was also pretty surprised when I called about a Boxster and wanted to view it on a Saturday but was told that you had too many people coming to view other cars!
My next car was a Boxster 2.5 bought from a used car dealer (not a specialist). When I decided to upgrade I went to an OPC (Lancasters) and was offered £24k in PX for a new or demo 3.2S. I walked away in disgust-especially as the car was immaculate and had just had a new clutch and rear seal fitted by them and had no recon costs whatsoever (having just been serviced and fitted with new N rated tyres and even bloody valeted by them!). A specialist sold my car on sale or return..returning me £27k. Took 2 weeks (AND THEY MADE MONEY OUT OF THE DEAL!!),
Warranties for 90 days is useful I guess and I understand the whole comeback issue BUT sale or return puts the onus on the trader if the car is faulty. I think its a good thing as they should make sure that cars are properly checked before being sold.
So here are the rules...
1)DONT buy at OPC unless you are clinically insane and you are distorting the market (and lining the pockets of lurvely sales people and shareholders)!
2) Dont bother trying to sell Porsches privately as you will attract every idiot and timewaster who cannot afford that 924 off "Wheeler Dealers" never mind a 996
3) Do use the sale or return facility as its seems like the only way to get a fair (NOT RIDICULOUS) price for your Porsche.
4) Independent specialists are good guys (yes you Henry) but do appear to have their moments of trying to kick you in the b*&*s.
The last time I asked you to value a car for me (2.5 years ago) you offered me £20k (it was a LHD 993)..I sold it to another trader who was happy to buy the car for £23k and sold it in a couple of weeks...funnily enough the car appeared on your website a year later for £26k. I remember you describing it as exceptional. I felt extremely insulted at your ridiculous offer...I was also pretty surprised when I called about a Boxster and wanted to view it on a Saturday but was told that you had too many people coming to view other cars!
My next car was a Boxster 2.5 bought from a used car dealer (not a specialist). When I decided to upgrade I went to an OPC (Lancasters) and was offered £24k in PX for a new or demo 3.2S. I walked away in disgust-especially as the car was immaculate and had just had a new clutch and rear seal fitted by them and had no recon costs whatsoever (having just been serviced and fitted with new N rated tyres and even bloody valeted by them!). A specialist sold my car on sale or return..returning me £27k. Took 2 weeks (AND THEY MADE MONEY OUT OF THE DEAL!!),
Warranties for 90 days is useful I guess and I understand the whole comeback issue BUT sale or return puts the onus on the trader if the car is faulty. I think its a good thing as they should make sure that cars are properly checked before being sold.
So here are the rules...
1)DONT buy at OPC unless you are clinically insane and you are distorting the market (and lining the pockets of lurvely sales people and shareholders)!
2) Dont bother trying to sell Porsches privately as you will attract every idiot and timewaster who cannot afford that 924 off "Wheeler Dealers" never mind a 996
3) Do use the sale or return facility as its seems like the only way to get a fair (NOT RIDICULOUS) price for your Porsche.
4) Independent specialists are good guys (yes you Henry) but do appear to have their moments of trying to kick you in the b*&*s.
My guide for buying a Porsche.............
"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."
"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."
I think the profits made by dealers are justified, think about the fact that car prices go down all the time. The trade revise values on a monthly basis and for all those cars that sell within a week, there must be half a dozen that sit taking up capital and space for several months.
How many times have you bought a car and then had to have small things done to it which costs are covered by the dealers (these all eat into the profits). This does not happen when you buy a car privately.
And before anyone asks, I'm not a trader.
How many times have you bought a car and then had to have small things done to it which costs are covered by the dealers (these all eat into the profits). This does not happen when you buy a car privately.
And before anyone asks, I'm not a trader.
murph7355 said:
Calling your prospective market "morons" doesn't exactly sound like good business sense to me.
And can I ask where you purchased your Porsche from?
Things are only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. Doesn't matter what "it" is. End of story.
Car was bought from a specialist (Portiacraft). I could have spent MUCH MUCH more from an OPC. (Up to £8k more which would now be pure depreciation)
I refer to the people who buy used cars from OPCs as morons.. and also people who waste time thinking that can pay £30k for a £36k car because a seller is so desperate.
My car's last owner bought the car from an OPC for £54k and sold it to Porticraft for £34k 2 years and 5k miles later!!!! How he must have cried...
In terms of its worth...find me a 996 C4 tip with full spec, low miles, UK supplied and in same exceptional condition for within £1.5k of my opening price.... and off course I am open to negotiation on this opening price.
>> Edited by kamal_raza on Thursday 11th December 12:30
You're kind of missing the point I think.
It wouldn't matter if the price were 15k, if there isn't a buyer out there for your (spec of) car, be they trade or private, then it's not worth that amount.
This is obviously a bit upsetting when it's your own pride and joy that you've loved driving and have cherished every day you've had it. But that's the way it goes with cars.
The only way to avoid the sort of things that seem to be irritating you so much is to catch the bus. We all know that the vast majority of fast cars (all of them!) are going to cost us dear in one way shape or form. Anyone thinking they can avoid this should either become a dealer, or not bother with cars full stop.
It wouldn't matter if the price were 15k, if there isn't a buyer out there for your (spec of) car, be they trade or private, then it's not worth that amount.
This is obviously a bit upsetting when it's your own pride and joy that you've loved driving and have cherished every day you've had it. But that's the way it goes with cars.
The only way to avoid the sort of things that seem to be irritating you so much is to catch the bus. We all know that the vast majority of fast cars (all of them!) are going to cost us dear in one way shape or form. Anyone thinking they can avoid this should either become a dealer, or not bother with cars full stop.
murph7355 said:
You're kind of missing the point I think.
It wouldn't matter if the price were 15k, if there isn't a buyer out there for your (spec of) car, be they trade or private, then it's not worth that amount.
This is obviously a bit upsetting when it's your own pride and joy that you've loved driving and have cherished every day you've had it. But that's the way it goes with cars.
The only way to avoid the sort of things that seem to be irritating you so much is to catch the bus. We all know that the vast majority of fast cars (all of them!) are going to cost us dear in one way shape or form. Anyone thinking they can avoid this should either become a dealer, or not bother with cars full stop.
The point is that there obviously is a market for the cars because OPCs sell them for the most ridiculous prices and get away with. Specialists also sell the cars all day long.
I am happy to achieve a fair value (based on a reasonable commission from a specialist). I can understand why buyers might want to use a reputable specialist because of finance and comeback for failures.
What I question is the ridiculous OPC margins and the sanity of the people that pay these prices. I guess the specialists are surviving because of the daft prices that OPC offer and I have no idea who sells them their cars at the these offers.
And as per the heading of this thread..I cannot believe the amount of muppets who call and offer some stupid price for a car on the assumption that someone is desparate to sell. I bet if I actually agreed to them buying at the price that they would then want to part exchange their Ford Orion and 3 nights of passion with their goat. Sorry to get so off subject.
In terms of colour combo...not an issue to my mind..people are always looking for an alternative to boring silver with black interior. Its JUST SO DULL!!!!!
ADL said:
There was a 968cs in blue in the classified of PH, it then appeared on RSJ of slough and sold in a week. Why? As above the percieved risk is less buying from dealers as you get the 90 day cover and getting warrenty thrown in is also easier, I think.
It was only 10% more expensive and it had been on PH for 55 days.
That was my car.
I did have 3 enquiries from the PH ad but only after I'd asked Joel to advertise it for me on his web site www.rsjsportscars.co.uk . He sold it virtually straight away. I got what I would have wanted from a private sale and he got his commission on top of that. By the way, he's a top fella (for a dealer
). He has a nice showroom, he doesn't talk to you like you're 5 years old and he does believe that mileage is an important factor when it comes to a used car. 
Sale or return is definitely the way to go if you're not desperate for the cash. The dealer doesn't have to shell anything out and the buyer still gets a warm fuzzy feeling because he's paying 10% more than he would have done if he'd bought exactly the same car privately.
Don't sell outright to dealers. They take the p1ss.
Edited to correct wrong URL.
>> Edited by HermanTheGerman on Thursday 11th December 16:09
welshchris said:
Most of us know that the expensive dealer/specialist cars they sell aren't necessarily better than those advertised privately but there is a perceived 'security' in buying from a dealer for a lot of people (i.e the possibility of returning the car when the engine goes bang on the way home)...
Chris
Unless you buy from Henry at his "Millenium Bug Trade" price, of course. His website tells us that he'll give us the bfh.
Henry, is your bug price strictly legal ? I thought the Sale of Goods act wouldn't allow traders to sell cars to the public with absolutely no warranty.
www.911uk.com/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=15&TopicID=1174&PagePosition=1
Check out this thread about 911-virgin.com.
****I dont necessarily agree with it but useful nonetheless***
Point taken about RSJ. Joel is a good guy and was the one who bought my 993 at a sensible price rather than trying to kick me in the b*(&s...
I wanted to buy a 996 from him but we couldnt quite get the deal right on the car he had (we werent far off but I really wanted some extras that his car didnt have)..I ended up getting an SLK 320 which went back after a month because the lying two-faced, thiefs at a Main Mercedes Dealer that I care not to mention (other than to say they are very close to a major southern airport) could not supply any service history for this "used approved" Signature vehicle...Shame as it was actually a brilliant car (I too was shocked)
>> Edited by kamal_raza on Thursday 11th December 15:59
Check out this thread about 911-virgin.com.
****I dont necessarily agree with it but useful nonetheless***
Point taken about RSJ. Joel is a good guy and was the one who bought my 993 at a sensible price rather than trying to kick me in the b*(&s...
I wanted to buy a 996 from him but we couldnt quite get the deal right on the car he had (we werent far off but I really wanted some extras that his car didnt have)..I ended up getting an SLK 320 which went back after a month because the lying two-faced, thiefs at a Main Mercedes Dealer that I care not to mention (other than to say they are very close to a major southern airport) could not supply any service history for this "used approved" Signature vehicle...Shame as it was actually a brilliant car (I too was shocked)
>> Edited by kamal_raza on Thursday 11th December 15:59
HermanTheGerman said:
I did have 3 enquiries from the PH ad but only after I'd asked Joel to advertise it for me on his web site www.rsjsportscars.co.uk .
Aaaaaagh - Herman! - Nooooooo!
I just had a look at the RSJ website and they have a lovely Midnight blue/Grey 993TT for sale at a half-reasonable price.
I want that car!
Chris
danhay said:
In defence of any traders (esp Henry!) I would just like to point out that they've got to find some way of offsetting having God knows how many £100,000s worth of stock depreciating on the forecourt!
And Porsche are better than most for depreciation.
I agree, take a typical Ford main dealer for example, with around 100 used cars on his forecourt, each one depreciating around £40 a week, whilst they lie there unsold, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out thats a lot of dough...
GREAT...so now I should subsidise cars that havent been well purchased...how can a car with a huge profit margin be depreciating (the only time that it can depreciate is when it goes below cost!). Most dealers have a 60 day stocking policy after which the cars are sent off to auction.
I think that you are confusing funding of the cars.ie all the capital tied up and the loan and/or equity costs associated with creating and operating a business....
Anyway Ford dealers deserve everything they get!
I think that you are confusing funding of the cars.ie all the capital tied up and the loan and/or equity costs associated with creating and operating a business....
Anyway Ford dealers deserve everything they get!
kamal_raza said:
GREAT...so now I should subsidise cars that havent been well purchased...how can a car with a huge profit margin be depreciating (the only time that it can depreciate is when it goes below cost!). Most dealers have a 60 day stocking policy after which the cars are sent off to auction.
I think that you are confusing funding of the cars.ie all the capital tied up and the loan and/or equity costs associated with creating and operating a business....
Anyway Ford dealers deserve everything they get!
Can't see what you have got against Ford dealers, they are only trying to make a living like everybody else......employing staff, paying business rates etc.
Regarding car values, forget Glass's guide, Parkers and the like, they are no different to houses, jewellery, motorcycles, what have you, their value is what somebody is prepared to pay for them at the time surely??
To obtain the best deal, don't be in a hurry to buy, and don't be in a hurry to sell.
Good luck with selling your Porsche btw.
Well here's my view for what its worth as a purchaser looking for a similar car and trying to sell (a TVR)
The Tvr I am trying to sell is the best in the world etc etc etc up for a resonable price etc etc all in my view !!!
But its a cr*p time of year to try and sell any car let alone a sports car be it TVR / Porsche or anything else.
In my experience private sales allways interests timewasters / mupets etc
The last time I sold a TVR I had it up for £18,995 and I had offer's from £10,000 upwards !!!! in the end it went to a dealer for £20,000 in p ex.
I have looked at many 911's over the last few weeks and am looking for the following 996 Coupe or Cab 98 /99 /00.
If I am honest my experience is as follows prices based on private sales :
Coupe
1998 30 - 33
1999 32 - 36
2000 35 - 40
Cab
1999 35 - 39
2000 39 - 40+
This is only based on me looking at the following Auto trader,E and M, Pistonheads, findit.co.uk and this time of year.
There are obviously cars more expensive than my esimates above but them seem to be in week after week
Unfortunatly tip cars seem to be cheaper than manual cars and silver or black ones seem to be the most expensive colours, with the prices in reverse it seems to be white,yellow,green,blue,black and silver
So my conclusion is that unfortunatly your car seems to be a little overpriced compared to what else is on the market from a buyers view point
And my final point on dealers are as follows :
If you don't like what they say or offer you them don't go them simple
Do it your self but its one serious pain in the ar*e selling sports cars to private individuals as they allways want a deal unfortunatly I think my TVR will end up as a p/ex if I can ever find the right 996 !!!
The Tvr I am trying to sell is the best in the world etc etc etc up for a resonable price etc etc all in my view !!!
But its a cr*p time of year to try and sell any car let alone a sports car be it TVR / Porsche or anything else.
In my experience private sales allways interests timewasters / mupets etc
The last time I sold a TVR I had it up for £18,995 and I had offer's from £10,000 upwards !!!! in the end it went to a dealer for £20,000 in p ex.
I have looked at many 911's over the last few weeks and am looking for the following 996 Coupe or Cab 98 /99 /00.
If I am honest my experience is as follows prices based on private sales :
Coupe
1998 30 - 33
1999 32 - 36
2000 35 - 40
Cab
1999 35 - 39
2000 39 - 40+
This is only based on me looking at the following Auto trader,E and M, Pistonheads, findit.co.uk and this time of year.
There are obviously cars more expensive than my esimates above but them seem to be in week after week
Unfortunatly tip cars seem to be cheaper than manual cars and silver or black ones seem to be the most expensive colours, with the prices in reverse it seems to be white,yellow,green,blue,black and silver
So my conclusion is that unfortunatly your car seems to be a little overpriced compared to what else is on the market from a buyers view point
And my final point on dealers are as follows :
If you don't like what they say or offer you them don't go them simple
Do it your self but its one serious pain in the ar*e selling sports cars to private individuals as they allways want a deal unfortunatly I think my TVR will end up as a p/ex if I can ever find the right 996 !!!
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