Next car - thoughts welcome
Discussion
Would appreciate a bit of help.
Its time to change my 944 turbo which I use at weekends and a max of 6 track days a year. It has been fantastic never requiring more than regular servicing, but I just fancy something else for a change.
The 944 is great but to be honest I don’t enjoy the - no power then loads of power - scenario. Quite a handful on a wet track. And a bit sluggish until it spools up. I miss that low smooth torque of my 964
I have noticed that many of the threads here seem , at one point or another to drift into a discussion on the outstanding qualities of the 964/993 RS and the GT3s.
I don’t want to append that kind of money really but the idea of thee lightweight, track led designs has captured my imagination and I an wondering how far a 968 CS would go to giving my what I want – fun at the weekends and a bit more ‘fit for purpose’ on track days.
My other thoughts was to go the whole hog and opt for a Caterham, but I an not going to trailer it and am a bit put off by the 200-300 ml round trips to the circuit on each track day.
All thoughts welcome
Cheers
James
Its time to change my 944 turbo which I use at weekends and a max of 6 track days a year. It has been fantastic never requiring more than regular servicing, but I just fancy something else for a change.
The 944 is great but to be honest I don’t enjoy the - no power then loads of power - scenario. Quite a handful on a wet track. And a bit sluggish until it spools up. I miss that low smooth torque of my 964
I have noticed that many of the threads here seem , at one point or another to drift into a discussion on the outstanding qualities of the 964/993 RS and the GT3s.
I don’t want to append that kind of money really but the idea of thee lightweight, track led designs has captured my imagination and I an wondering how far a 968 CS would go to giving my what I want – fun at the weekends and a bit more ‘fit for purpose’ on track days.
My other thoughts was to go the whole hog and opt for a Caterham, but I an not going to trailer it and am a bit put off by the 200-300 ml round trips to the circuit on each track day.
All thoughts welcome
Cheers
James
Obviously the 968 Clubsport is a great weekend toy and track car, but it won't be much quicker in a straight line than your 944 Turbo (if at all....depends on the 944 Turbo). However, the 968 will be better around the bends. Just read Dave Walker's column in this month's Circuit Driver in which he points out that a normally aspirated race car can make do with 25% less power than an old fashioned turbo car but equal its lap times because it is hard to modulate the throttle of a oldy-worldy turbo car around the bends. This would all depend on how much lag your 944 has.
The other point to consider is raw excitement. A 964 RS will be on the next rung up on the ladder compared to your 944 Turbo. However, the 968 will feel civilised and refined compared to your 944 with its exciting turbo power delivery. The 968 CS is a fantastic precision tool and that is what you must appreciate if you are going to enjoy the thing. Personally I would save up for a LHD 964 RS. I bet you'd never sell it if you got one.
By the way....I am not slagging 968's. I think they are fab. I ran 2 E30 M3's and they are similar in lay-out and philosophy.
The other point to consider is raw excitement. A 964 RS will be on the next rung up on the ladder compared to your 944 Turbo. However, the 968 will feel civilised and refined compared to your 944 with its exciting turbo power delivery. The 968 CS is a fantastic precision tool and that is what you must appreciate if you are going to enjoy the thing. Personally I would save up for a LHD 964 RS. I bet you'd never sell it if you got one.
By the way....I am not slagging 968's. I think they are fab. I ran 2 E30 M3's and they are similar in lay-out and philosophy.
I used to run a 944S2 and considered/test drove 944 Turbo and 968 Clubsport. I didn`t like the turbo because of the poor off boost performance compared to the S2 and it didn`t feel any faster. I had uprated suspension on the S2 and the clubsport felt sharper but not by much and again it didn`t feel significantly faster and lack of power was the reason for wanting to change the S2. I felt all 3 cars were basicaly variations on the same theme and swopping from one to another wasn`t really much of a change. I suspect you may tire of the 968`s lack of firepower after the turbo and 964.
As for the Caterham its probably a good idea to hire one on a trackday. I`d considered one as a track car/weekend car but after hiring one decided it wasn`t for me. I hired a 140bhp model and it wasn`t as quick as my C2 - it just died over 100mph. I`d suggest at least 160bhp. The practicality side of Caterhams is obvious but they are still "kit cars" comparatively build quality wise. Handling, grip and braking are in a different league but I fely some of the sensation of speed was lost despite being open. In tin tops you are always aware of the feeling of weight and momentum giving a "feeling" of speed.
Since you`ve owned a 964 you`ll appreciate their good points but on track the RS is much sharper and as a track toy thats the way I would go from 944Turbo. Perhaps you should try and blag some rides at a trackday.
As for the Caterham its probably a good idea to hire one on a trackday. I`d considered one as a track car/weekend car but after hiring one decided it wasn`t for me. I hired a 140bhp model and it wasn`t as quick as my C2 - it just died over 100mph. I`d suggest at least 160bhp. The practicality side of Caterhams is obvious but they are still "kit cars" comparatively build quality wise. Handling, grip and braking are in a different league but I fely some of the sensation of speed was lost despite being open. In tin tops you are always aware of the feeling of weight and momentum giving a "feeling" of speed.
Since you`ve owned a 964 you`ll appreciate their good points but on track the RS is much sharper and as a track toy thats the way I would go from 944Turbo. Perhaps you should try and blag some rides at a trackday.
You may already know this, but have you tried a boost enhancer on your turbo? I've heard they improve the lag very much and make them a lot more driveable. Also the wastegate springs are probably a little tired by now, so it may not be developing as much power as it should. Should be able to get 300bhp without spending too much money.
964RS's are indeed great, but hardly cheap, but you can achive almost the same goal using a C2 & modifiying it for a lot less £.
A decent LHD 964, can be bought for say low £teens i.e approx £10k under a nice LHD RS.
So create a budget RS.
Get a nice C2 964, chuck out some lard & get a nice pair of seats say Recaro Pole Positons at £300 each, get your suspension sorted, with a minimum of a decent set of springs like Eibachs, mated to either new standard dampers- or preferably for only a tad more £ something uprated. (or indeed a complete kit- Bilstein PSS9 works well on 993 but not sure if available for 964) perhaps fiddle about with antiroll bars & suspension mounts etc also.
Chip it, cat bypass, rolling road set up etc etc & you will have more power than a stock RS. Not that there are many standard RS's left!)
Get RS or big red calipers- 2nd hand say £300 ish, plus new discs, & maybe a decent set of cup wheels & voila a cheaper alternative to an RS.
You could of course go the whole hog with carbon doors/bonnet etc, but if you had that sort of £ to play with im sure you would get an RS anyway!
Ok your resale would perhaps suffer if you to sell it as it was modified, (& it won't be depreciation proof,like an RS) but it shouldnt suffer hugely & if you keep all you standard parts you can still sell it as a standard car & all the parts will sell quite quickly on the 2nd hand market.
Then again there is always the Caterham & a set of ear plugs plus a cheap tow car & trailer
A decent LHD 964, can be bought for say low £teens i.e approx £10k under a nice LHD RS.
So create a budget RS.
Get a nice C2 964, chuck out some lard & get a nice pair of seats say Recaro Pole Positons at £300 each, get your suspension sorted, with a minimum of a decent set of springs like Eibachs, mated to either new standard dampers- or preferably for only a tad more £ something uprated. (or indeed a complete kit- Bilstein PSS9 works well on 993 but not sure if available for 964) perhaps fiddle about with antiroll bars & suspension mounts etc also.
Chip it, cat bypass, rolling road set up etc etc & you will have more power than a stock RS. Not that there are many standard RS's left!)
Get RS or big red calipers- 2nd hand say £300 ish, plus new discs, & maybe a decent set of cup wheels & voila a cheaper alternative to an RS.
You could of course go the whole hog with carbon doors/bonnet etc, but if you had that sort of £ to play with im sure you would get an RS anyway!
Ok your resale would perhaps suffer if you to sell it as it was modified, (& it won't be depreciation proof,like an RS) but it shouldnt suffer hugely & if you keep all you standard parts you can still sell it as a standard car & all the parts will sell quite quickly on the 2nd hand market.
Then again there is always the Caterham & a set of ear plugs plus a cheap tow car & trailer
iguana said:
964RS's are indeed great, but hardly cheap, but you can achive almost the same goal using a C2 & modifiying it for a lot less £.
A decent LHD 964, can be bought for say low £teens i.e approx £10k under a nice LHD RS.
So create a budget RS.
Get a nice C2 964, chuck out some lard & get a nice pair of seats say Recaro Pole Positons at £300 each, get your suspension sorted, with a minimum of a decent set of springs like Eibachs, mated to either new standard dampers- or preferably for only a tad more £ something uprated. (or indeed a complete kit- Bilstein PSS9 works well on 993 but not sure if available for 964) perhaps fiddle about with antiroll bars & suspension mounts etc also.
Chip it, cat bypass, rolling road set up etc etc & you will have more power than a stock RS. Not that there are many standard RS's left!)
Get RS or big red calipers- 2nd hand say £300 ish, plus new discs, & maybe a decent set of cup wheels & voila a cheaper alternative to an RS.
You could of course go the whole hog with carbon doors/bonnet etc, but if you had that sort of £ to play with im sure you would get an RS anyway!
Ok your resale would perhaps suffer if you to sell it as it was modified, (& it won't be depreciation proof,like an RS) but it shouldnt suffer hugely & if you keep all you standard parts you can still sell it as a standard car & all the parts will sell quite quickly on the 2nd hand market.
Then again there is always the Caterham & a set of ear plugs plus a cheap tow car & trailer
What an excellent idea iguana! That's just what I'm in the process of doing myself. Have tidy German import LHD964, uprated springs, Pagid Blues, 17's and new tyres, cup pipe and skimmed heads and am looking to put a set of 3-way adjustables on it this year.
I plan to eventually turn the car into an RS-eater, but still have 2+2 practicality, climate control and a sunroof.
Collectors have driven RS prices into silly territory. There are plenty of people building 2.7RS-alikes as the price of real ones is almost in F40 territory, so why not do the same for the 964RS?
Fox
---
964C2
P.S. That's a mean Bimmer there Iguana! Hate to think how much that one cost you! Didn't Hartge do a similar conversion at one time?
You are not wrong ref '73 RS's being in F40 teritory- except if you take the example of a mint RHD lightweight an F40 can be found for a quite significantly cheaper price!
Even 964RS prices are creeping up, doesnt seem like too long ago the mags were full of really decent examples at the high £teens level!!
I was involved with a norm 964 that the chap turned into an RS rep- It was a very cheap LHD import circa £9k I seem to recall, he was running 275bhp sorted the suspension, cup rims etc etc & he even went the whole hog & removed the rear seats, binned all the soundproofing & threw the lardy front seats away & replaced with Recaros & got Southbound (well known Porsche trimmers) to make him up a full RS lightweight carpet set. It was a great little wagon.
Seeing as you asked- my bimmer- well yes it is a tad different, conversion costs by the original owner were indeed high- not as high as the single RHD V8 e36 Alpina made for special order tho- circa £70+k is the rumour!
Don't know if Hartage did a V8 E36- think they do it for the E46 tho & some one offers an M5 engine too aye currumba!
Anyway its up for sale at the mo (see PH classifieds under BMW M series)
There was a thread running on the BMW forum about it a while back-
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=65378&f=72&h=0
Oh and there should be a 5 page feature on the pimpmobile in Total BMW mag soon too.
Even 964RS prices are creeping up, doesnt seem like too long ago the mags were full of really decent examples at the high £teens level!!
I was involved with a norm 964 that the chap turned into an RS rep- It was a very cheap LHD import circa £9k I seem to recall, he was running 275bhp sorted the suspension, cup rims etc etc & he even went the whole hog & removed the rear seats, binned all the soundproofing & threw the lardy front seats away & replaced with Recaros & got Southbound (well known Porsche trimmers) to make him up a full RS lightweight carpet set. It was a great little wagon.
Seeing as you asked- my bimmer- well yes it is a tad different, conversion costs by the original owner were indeed high- not as high as the single RHD V8 e36 Alpina made for special order tho- circa £70+k is the rumour!
Don't know if Hartage did a V8 E36- think they do it for the E46 tho & some one offers an M5 engine too
aye currumba! Anyway its up for sale at the mo (see PH classifieds under BMW M series)
There was a thread running on the BMW forum about it a while back-
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=65378&f=72&h=0
Oh and there should be a 5 page feature on the pimpmobile in Total BMW mag soon too.
Thanks for the input guys - probably going to go 968 - though i found myself looking at 964s again this evening - i'm just a bit nervous a 968 is not going to have the power in a straight line I got from my other 964 or current 944 turbo both chipped sports exaust etc
Oh well we'll see
cheers
james
Oh well we'll see
cheers
james
James, funnily emough I moved the opposite way, I used to have a lovely yellow 968CS, and swapped it for a 964C2... 
YMMV but I feel my 964 is _noticably_ quicker in a straight line than the 968 was - although I'm sure there probably isn't really much in it - possibly due to the wonderful noise!
Go test drive/borrow a mate's 968CS and see what you think - still a great car, if only they put a flat 6 or a v8 in it...
Fox
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964C2 with cup pipe, drilled airbox and K&N panel
YMMV but I feel my 964 is _noticably_ quicker in a straight line than the 968 was - although I'm sure there probably isn't really much in it - possibly due to the wonderful noise!
Go test drive/borrow a mate's 968CS and see what you think - still a great car, if only they put a flat 6 or a v8 in it...
Fox
---
964C2 with cup pipe, drilled airbox and K&N panel
Don't know how I missed this thread 
Before you ditch the trusty 944T have you tried to redress the lag issue? The wastegate really is a tired old thing at this stage in its life but the £99 boost enhancer really freshens it up and reduces lag considerably.
I looked at about 8 Turbos before I bought mine and they were all sooooo disappointing compared to my S2, but the 9th one had a BE and it was a different car.
Next step is to fit a £249 chip kit from Gururacing (now sold in the UK by Andrew Sweetenham at www.promaxmotorsport.co.uk ) I have this and it was dyno'd at 287bhp and 331lbft before I shimmed the wastegate. Lag has reduced even more and the boost is now very strong.
After that would be a dual port wastegate to nearly eliminate the lag £459 and then the sky is the limit, but call Andrew and discuss, he is very helpful on the www.titanic.co.uk/944 forum and extremely fast on the track. He's just installed a MAP sensor to his road car and dyno'd at over 400bhp which was the max that rolling road could take.
Before you ditch the trusty 944T have you tried to redress the lag issue? The wastegate really is a tired old thing at this stage in its life but the £99 boost enhancer really freshens it up and reduces lag considerably.
I looked at about 8 Turbos before I bought mine and they were all sooooo disappointing compared to my S2, but the 9th one had a BE and it was a different car.
Next step is to fit a £249 chip kit from Gururacing (now sold in the UK by Andrew Sweetenham at www.promaxmotorsport.co.uk ) I have this and it was dyno'd at 287bhp and 331lbft before I shimmed the wastegate. Lag has reduced even more and the boost is now very strong.
After that would be a dual port wastegate to nearly eliminate the lag £459 and then the sky is the limit, but call Andrew and discuss, he is very helpful on the www.titanic.co.uk/944 forum and extremely fast on the track. He's just installed a MAP sensor to his road car and dyno'd at over 400bhp which was the max that rolling road could take.
Yes the turbo is prety sorted - AMD chip with remap, boost enhancer and re-shimmed wastegate. It runs adjustable konis and is on pzeroCs. The car is quite fantasitc on the track - if its dry. Its the low end lack of power on the road I don't like. To enjoy them to have to drive thm with some vigour all the time. The thing I love about 911s is the low down power and particualrly torque I had with my 964.
I had settled on a 968CS but it sold before I could get to sort the deal out yesteday evening - so its back to the drawing board. I'll have to sort it soon though - yeterday I weakened and looked at a couple of TVRs!
Thanks for all the input guys.
James
I had settled on a 968CS but it sold before I could get to sort the deal out yesteday evening - so its back to the drawing board. I'll have to sort it soon though - yeterday I weakened and looked at a couple of TVRs!
Thanks for all the input guys.
James
Hey Diver
You know how it is. To sell cars first I must have stock. Cars from enthusiasts are preffered as they will be "loved up" but I still need to make a living. I, like any trader negotiate as hard & fairly as I can, pay out for it & leave. No whining, no constant phone calls, nothing.
Yes I will pay less but no hassle involved.
So if you are aware of any 944's that the owners have loved, who need/want to sell easily, quickly & hassle free. Have them mail me on :- uktrucks@msn.com
Regards
Allan
You know how it is. To sell cars first I must have stock. Cars from enthusiasts are preffered as they will be "loved up" but I still need to make a living. I, like any trader negotiate as hard & fairly as I can, pay out for it & leave. No whining, no constant phone calls, nothing.
Yes I will pay less but no hassle involved.
So if you are aware of any 944's that the owners have loved, who need/want to sell easily, quickly & hassle free. Have them mail me on :- uktrucks@msn.com
Regards
Allan
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