996 GT3 investment according to Sunday Times
Discussion
I see the Sunday Times has listed a 996 GT3 as 4/5 for investment potential in a feature by the founder of Evo mag. There were a handful of cars including two that I have previously owned - TVR Griff and an Elise Mk1.
The 996 GT3 is often being billed as an investment and it is easy to see why. It is one of the best cars produced by Porsche and at £35-40k is great value compared to the likes of 964RS's at £60K+. It does always tend to be the mk1 that is featured but I think the mk2 will be up there too.
Happy New Year GT3 owners
The 996 GT3 is often being billed as an investment and it is easy to see why. It is one of the best cars produced by Porsche and at £35-40k is great value compared to the likes of 964RS's at £60K+. It does always tend to be the mk1 that is featured but I think the mk2 will be up there too.
Happy New Year GT3 owners
Edited by TGJR on Sunday 3rd January 10:42
Edited by TGJR on Sunday 3rd January 10:42
I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about.
On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.
In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.
On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.
In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.
johnny senna said:
I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about.
On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.
In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.
Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS?On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.
In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.
johnny senna said:
... Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3...
Very good point. I see some 997GT3's now sub 60K. So, if it was a choice of a 6gt3 at 45K or a 7gt3 at 55K, i'd go for the 7. However, with some 6gt3's available sub 40K, that pressure is not there yet (for me).jeremyc said:
johnny senna said:
I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about.
On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.
In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.
Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS?On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.
In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.
johnny senna said:
jeremyc said:
johnny senna said:
I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about.
On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.
In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.
Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS?On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.
In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.
Not sure what you're getting at johnny ? You say that you doubt that prices will go up, but then contradict yourself by saying that IF they do, it'll be the 996 GT3 RS and /or MK1 GT3s that do so because of their rarity, Motorsport dept build, first built etc (or more for the beards to talk about as you put it)
Is that not what made the 964RS and 993RS increase in value ? (the 993 wasn't that much better than a 964 RS (in my very humble opinion)
The 996 MK 1 GT3 was however (IMO) a quantum leap over the 993 RS.
Whilst the MK2 996 GT3 was an improvement over the MK1 (it being sold in the US and ROW won't have helped it's residuals IMO
)
The 997 GT3 is not "similar" to the 996, it was a massive improvement over any of the 996 versions (as a road car anyway)
I'm not sure what numbers were built, but like the Mk2 996 GT3 I suspect too many to make it an appreciating classic. Only time will tell whether the RS version becomes sought after.
Unless buyers perceptions have changed, I think the MK1 and RS versions of the 996 will follow those of the 964 and 993 RS. It may take longer (but I've not forgotten I bought my first 964 RS in 2001 for circa £23K . . . )
We're now ten/eleven years on from the launch of the MK1 GT3, with it's impossibly low ground clearance, lumpy tickover, "cr*p" brakes and characterless watercooled kettle of an engine. Let's revisit this thread in another ten years and see where the values have gone ay ?
I tend to agree that the mk1 GT3 will lead the way with strong values in a few years time, however, I think the mk 2 will be not far behind.
Lets say, for arguments sake, that in 2018 a good mk1 GT3 with 60k miles on the clock is fetching £50k. Surely some potential buyers will look at the mk2 as an option if they are priced at say circa £40k?
It's a tough call to predict prices in 5-10 years time but of all the Porsches built in the past 10 years and currently available for less than £60k my order of 'investment' potential would be:
1) 996 GT3 RS
2) 996 GT3 Mk1
3) 996 GT3 mk2
4) 996 GT2
5) 997 GT3 (RS not available at sub £60k yet)
6) 996 Turbo
Lets say, for arguments sake, that in 2018 a good mk1 GT3 with 60k miles on the clock is fetching £50k. Surely some potential buyers will look at the mk2 as an option if they are priced at say circa £40k?
It's a tough call to predict prices in 5-10 years time but of all the Porsches built in the past 10 years and currently available for less than £60k my order of 'investment' potential would be:
1) 996 GT3 RS
2) 996 GT3 Mk1
3) 996 GT3 mk2
4) 996 GT2
5) 997 GT3 (RS not available at sub £60k yet)
6) 996 Turbo
Slippydiff said:
johnny senna said:
jeremyc said:
johnny senna said:
I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about.
On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.
In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.
Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS?On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.
In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.
Not sure what you're getting at johnny ? You say that you doubt that prices will go up, but then contradict yourself by saying that IF they do, it'll be the 996 GT3 RS and /or MK1 GT3s that do so because of their rarity, Motorsport dept build, first built etc (or more for the beards to talk about as you put it)
Is that not what made the 964RS and 993RS increase in value ? (the 993 wasn't that much better than a 964 RS (in my very humble opinion)
The 996 MK 1 GT3 was however (IMO) a quantum leap over the 993 RS.
Whilst the MK2 996 GT3 was an improvement over the MK1 (it being sold in the US and ROW won't have helped it's residuals IMO
)
The 997 GT3 is not "similar" to the 996, it was a massive improvement over any of the 996 versions (as a road car anyway)
I'm not sure what numbers were built, but like the Mk2 996 GT3 I suspect too many to make it an appreciating classic. Only time will tell whether the RS version becomes sought after.
Unless buyers perceptions have changed, I think the MK1 and RS versions of the 996 will follow those of the 964 and 993 RS. It may take longer (but I've not forgotten I bought my first 964 RS in 2001 for circa £23K . . . )
We're now ten/eleven years on from the launch of the MK1 GT3, with it's impossibly low ground clearance, lumpy tickover, "cr*p" brakes and characterless watercooled kettle of an engine. Let's revisit this thread in another ten years and see where the values have gone ay ?
The other reason 964/993 RSs are really valuable is that they feel closer to the old expensive gear like the '73 RS. The interiors feel very similar, so does the upright windscreen right on front of your nose, and these factors somehow help buyers justify the mega values of the rarer lightweight aircooled stuff. When you sit in a 996/997, the cars feel massive in comparison, a different car altogether. I think this makes it harder for collectors to justify paying daft money for them.
So, I predict:
Modest price rises for mark 1 996 GT3 and 996 RS, say 50K and 65-70K respectively in 5-10 years.
All other 996 and 997 GT3 values will drop as time goes by and then stabilise. All of these cars will have their values negatively affected by every new GT3 model that emerges, as it surely will over time (e.g. 998 GT3, 998 GT3 RS). It is inevitable.
Whilst there is downwards pressure whilst still competing with current models, one has to remember they are going up in price which gives some breathing room.
I think the 996 will do ok as its the last of the cars which were 90% mechanical engineering whereas the newer ones are more and more electrical engineering. They are also easier to drive, so I think the challenge and the mechanical nature give the 6 something special. The electrical engineering is just going to date.
Ultimately I don't care as its not an investment and whilst I've not really had too much depreciation pain as it goes for cars, I've more than compensated with servicing costs keeping it in top condition!
I think the 996 will do ok as its the last of the cars which were 90% mechanical engineering whereas the newer ones are more and more electrical engineering. They are also easier to drive, so I think the challenge and the mechanical nature give the 6 something special. The electrical engineering is just going to date.
Ultimately I don't care as its not an investment and whilst I've not really had too much depreciation pain as it goes for cars, I've more than compensated with servicing costs keeping it in top condition!
Edited by DanH on Monday 4th January 19:47
johnny senna said:
Slippydiff said:
johnny senna said:
jeremyc said:
johnny senna said:
I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about.
On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.
In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.
Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS?On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.
In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.
Not sure what you're getting at johnny ? You say that you doubt that prices will go up, but then contradict yourself by saying that IF they do, it'll be the 996 GT3 RS and /or MK1 GT3s that do so because of their rarity, Motorsport dept build, first built etc (or more for the beards to talk about as you put it)
Is that not what made the 964RS and 993RS increase in value ? (the 993 wasn't that much better than a 964 RS (in my very humble opinion)
The 996 MK 1 GT3 was however (IMO) a quantum leap over the 993 RS.
Whilst the MK2 996 GT3 was an improvement over the MK1 (it being sold in the US and ROW won't have helped it's residuals IMO
)
The 997 GT3 is not "similar" to the 996, it was a massive improvement over any of the 996 versions (as a road car anyway)
I'm not sure what numbers were built, but like the Mk2 996 GT3 I suspect too many to make it an appreciating classic. Only time will tell whether the RS version becomes sought after.
Unless buyers perceptions have changed, I think the MK1 and RS versions of the 996 will follow those of the 964 and 993 RS. It may take longer (but I've not forgotten I bought my first 964 RS in 2001 for circa £23K . . . )
We're now ten/eleven years on from the launch of the MK1 GT3, with it's impossibly low ground clearance, lumpy tickover, "cr*p" brakes and characterless watercooled kettle of an engine. Let's revisit this thread in another ten years and see where the values have gone ay ?
The other reason 964/993 RSs are really valuable is that they feel closer to the old expensive gear like the '73 RS. The interiors feel very similar, so does the upright windscreen right on front of your nose, and these factors somehow help buyers justify the mega values of the rarer lightweight aircooled stuff. When you sit in a 996/997, the cars feel massive in comparison, a different car altogether. I think this makes it harder for collectors to justify paying daft money for them.
So, I predict:
Modest price rises for mark 1 996 GT3 and 996 RS, say 50K and 65-70K respectively in 5-10 years.
All other 996 and 997 GT3 values will drop as time goes by and then stabilise. All of these cars will have their values negatively affected by every new GT3 model that emerges, as it surely will over time (e.g. 998 GT3, 998 GT3 RS). It is inevitable.
IMO the MK1 GT3 feels pretty agricultural already (when compared with the 997 GT3 GEN 1 & 2) and I shudder to think what it'll feel like compared to the 998 . . . .
On the basis of feeling like the "old stuff" the Mk1 has got a lot of the traits the beardies consider an integral part of proper GT/RS 911 ownership.
with the 996 the specialness has a much wider spread
ignoring air vs. water for a second, the specialness has been diluted (and the 997 even more so !)
So you cannot expect 996 and 997 to follow suit a La 993, 964 etc..
Leaving aside the GT2 for a second... with the 993 we had the RS. With the 964 we had the RS.
With 996 we had the GT3 mki, GT3 mkii and then the GT3 RS. That's a lot more cars and 3 different models.
In my book that makes at least the gT3's (mki and ii) a different kettle of fish to the 993rs and 964rs.
If the money is on one kettle, its the 996 GT3RS. Its the really special one that everyone will want and what, only 500 were ever made. Less than half the number of 993rs's.
ignoring air vs. water for a second, the specialness has been diluted (and the 997 even more so !)
So you cannot expect 996 and 997 to follow suit a La 993, 964 etc..
Leaving aside the GT2 for a second... with the 993 we had the RS. With the 964 we had the RS.
With 996 we had the GT3 mki, GT3 mkii and then the GT3 RS. That's a lot more cars and 3 different models.
In my book that makes at least the gT3's (mki and ii) a different kettle of fish to the 993rs and 964rs.
If the money is on one kettle, its the 996 GT3RS. Its the really special one that everyone will want and what, only 500 were ever made. Less than half the number of 993rs's.
Edited by jackal on Monday 4th January 20:14
I still can't for the life of me understand why the (albeit superb) GT3 keeps getting press coverage whilst the GT2 barely gets a mention.
The GT2 is faster (massively so!) rarer, better looking, etc, etc. In fact in every measurable way it's better.
For these reasons I'm pretty confident that in the next few years enough people will open their eyes to the tremendous GT2 that it'll become properly collectable.
Hell there's probably fewer than 100 RHD GT2s in existance now, how much rarer do you want???
SM
The GT2 is faster (massively so!) rarer, better looking, etc, etc. In fact in every measurable way it's better.
For these reasons I'm pretty confident that in the next few years enough people will open their eyes to the tremendous GT2 that it'll become properly collectable.
Hell there's probably fewer than 100 RHD GT2s in existance now, how much rarer do you want???
SM
supermono said:
I still can't for the life of me understand why the (albeit superb) GT3 keeps getting press coverage whilst the GT2 barely gets a mention.
Because it has no motorsport provenance.The 964RS, 993RS and GT3s have all been used extensively in racing; the 996 (and onwards) GT2s haven't had such a role. The 993 GT2 did star on track, contributing to the stellar values they achieve.
Edited by jeremyc on Monday 4th January 21:00
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