Cars - Sale or Return
Discussion
Hi
Was wondering if any of you guys n gals out there had sold your cars through 'sale or return' dealers ? Dont want the stress of private sale, so seems like a good option but a bit worried about leaving the car with smaller Independent dealers...
Any feedback would be really welcome.
Was wondering if any of you guys n gals out there had sold your cars through 'sale or return' dealers ? Dont want the stress of private sale, so seems like a good option but a bit worried about leaving the car with smaller Independent dealers...
Any feedback would be really welcome.
I am a small independant and recently a man I hadmet only once entrusted me with his GT3 to sell. As long as you sort the basic agreement out on who will do what it's no real issue. Of course I can only speak for myself, however I am sure that if you choose carefully your "partner" it will all work out.
What car is it ?
Are you reasonably close to Milton Keynes ?
Regards
Allan
What car is it ?
Are you reasonably close to Milton Keynes ?
Regards
Allan
car is a Boxster, based in London so MK not too far.
Just wondered if any other PHers had used an independent that was trustworthy etc etc.
Did you get a written contract ? Was car insured by the dealer ? If you have experience please e/m me if you dont want to mention names on here, I would be very grateful.
Sorry to cast doubt on any of you dealer types
. Just worried about insurance, not getting paid etc etc. Am I just being too paranoid.....
Thanks in advance.
Just wondered if any other PHers had used an independent that was trustworthy etc etc.
Did you get a written contract ? Was car insured by the dealer ? If you have experience please e/m me if you dont want to mention names on here, I would be very grateful.
Sorry to cast doubt on any of you dealer types
. Just worried about insurance, not getting paid etc etc. Am I just being too paranoid..... Thanks in advance.
I had a written agreement. A colour photo copy of the V5 reg doc. One set of keys only. [the orig V5 & 2nd set of keys with solicitor] All service books & history and the car is covered on my insurance, whilst in my care.
As for getting paid etc there will be an unavoidable period of being an unsecured creditor. This occurs when I have cleared the buyers funds into my account and then process the outgoing into yours. This of course is really no different than when you bought the car, you had to provide "cleared funds" to the dealer before they registered the car new. You were effectively an unsecured creditor for a short while then also. It's really a matter of trust. If you do not trust the dealer to sell on your behalf and pay you the choices are:-Find one you do trust or Sell it yourself.
Regards
Allan
As for getting paid etc there will be an unavoidable period of being an unsecured creditor. This occurs when I have cleared the buyers funds into my account and then process the outgoing into yours. This of course is really no different than when you bought the car, you had to provide "cleared funds" to the dealer before they registered the car new. You were effectively an unsecured creditor for a short while then also. It's really a matter of trust. If you do not trust the dealer to sell on your behalf and pay you the choices are:-Find one you do trust or Sell it yourself.
Regards
Allan
Potentially one of the most dangerous ways there is to dispose of your car. Think we may have touched on this topic in the past.
If it all goes well then fine and dandy. However ask your self a couple of questions. If the dealer is solvent why won`t they buy it off you outright ? If it`s because you want too much money for the car then how will they be able to sell it no matter who owns the vehicle. If it`s because they don`t sell many of that type of car then they might not be the people to sell it for you.
It doesn`t matter if you keep log books, keys or a pair of the dealer`s underpants for DNA sampling the fact of the matter is that you have given that bloke permision to sell your motor, if he decides to go on the missing with your money you`ve lost the car, end of story.
The temptation for someone selling a lot of cars sale or return is to use the money to make a few quid then pay out the customer, worse than that all these lovely cars go to his head a little and his lifestyle exceeds his earnings. That means he is a car out of synch. He has to sell car number 2 in order to pay customer number 1. An so it gets worse until said man vanishes. Sadly not just fiction either. There are a number of Porsche people who have disappeared over the years in such a manner, some return with highly plausible excuses (but never the money).
And no - I`m not scare mongering just to further my cause, I`m trying to protect people from losing their shirt. There are plenty of people out there who will buy your car off you other than 911virgin.com. There will be an outcry from people putting forward all manner of companies who have sold their cars for them and returned the money as promised. The fact is you never know people`s financial state. When things go wrong there are never any warning signs, they just go pop over night.
One of the biggest problems is that the victims tend not to be overly vocal of their plight. They feel rather stupid to have been sucked in and so say very little, especially knowing it isn`t going to get their car back.
All that said there are occasions when it works and the most obvious example is when it`s a car that is hard to value, something like a flat nose turbo. Is it worth 25k or 30k? You`ll buy it assuming the worst. Most cars are much easier to value though and in those circumstances I suggest you think very long and hard before going down the SOR route rather than an outright purchase.
Sorry if it all sounds a bit gloomy but not every one is a decent and lovely as you good folk.
If it all goes well then fine and dandy. However ask your self a couple of questions. If the dealer is solvent why won`t they buy it off you outright ? If it`s because you want too much money for the car then how will they be able to sell it no matter who owns the vehicle. If it`s because they don`t sell many of that type of car then they might not be the people to sell it for you.
It doesn`t matter if you keep log books, keys or a pair of the dealer`s underpants for DNA sampling the fact of the matter is that you have given that bloke permision to sell your motor, if he decides to go on the missing with your money you`ve lost the car, end of story.
The temptation for someone selling a lot of cars sale or return is to use the money to make a few quid then pay out the customer, worse than that all these lovely cars go to his head a little and his lifestyle exceeds his earnings. That means he is a car out of synch. He has to sell car number 2 in order to pay customer number 1. An so it gets worse until said man vanishes. Sadly not just fiction either. There are a number of Porsche people who have disappeared over the years in such a manner, some return with highly plausible excuses (but never the money).
And no - I`m not scare mongering just to further my cause, I`m trying to protect people from losing their shirt. There are plenty of people out there who will buy your car off you other than 911virgin.com. There will be an outcry from people putting forward all manner of companies who have sold their cars for them and returned the money as promised. The fact is you never know people`s financial state. When things go wrong there are never any warning signs, they just go pop over night.
One of the biggest problems is that the victims tend not to be overly vocal of their plight. They feel rather stupid to have been sucked in and so say very little, especially knowing it isn`t going to get their car back.
All that said there are occasions when it works and the most obvious example is when it`s a car that is hard to value, something like a flat nose turbo. Is it worth 25k or 30k? You`ll buy it assuming the worst. Most cars are much easier to value though and in those circumstances I suggest you think very long and hard before going down the SOR route rather than an outright purchase.
Sorry if it all sounds a bit gloomy but not every one is a decent and lovely as you good folk.
Henry
If I didnt reply I was in danger of being lumped in with the "villains" and by replying I fall in to the category of "lots of people will reply etc"
Your business enjoys both an enviable reputation and position in the supply of used Porsche. I aspire to emulate this given time.
I was not offering anything, either SOR or to outright purchase, merely pointing out that with the correct partner it can and does work.
Many fledgling businesses begin with a mixture of own stock and SOR stock. My small concern has huge sums of capital tied up in used trucks & plant [all our own] I also have a smaller amount tied up in Porsche stock.
One day I to look forward to turning over c£5m on used Porsche cars like yourselves but that equates to carrying c£750k of stock at any one time. This is beyond my current cash base but wishing to offer SOR to the mutual benefit does not make me dishonest nor dillusional. I have my own GT3 so have no real need to drive clients stock nor would I dream of employing their cash as risk capital in my business. But as you say not everyone is like that !
Regards
Allan
If I didnt reply I was in danger of being lumped in with the "villains" and by replying I fall in to the category of "lots of people will reply etc"
Your business enjoys both an enviable reputation and position in the supply of used Porsche. I aspire to emulate this given time.
I was not offering anything, either SOR or to outright purchase, merely pointing out that with the correct partner it can and does work.
Many fledgling businesses begin with a mixture of own stock and SOR stock. My small concern has huge sums of capital tied up in used trucks & plant [all our own] I also have a smaller amount tied up in Porsche stock.
One day I to look forward to turning over c£5m on used Porsche cars like yourselves but that equates to carrying c£750k of stock at any one time. This is beyond my current cash base but wishing to offer SOR to the mutual benefit does not make me dishonest nor dillusional. I have my own GT3 so have no real need to drive clients stock nor would I dream of employing their cash as risk capital in my business. But as you say not everyone is like that !
Regards
Allan
Well said Henry..and that's without mentioning the dealer using your car as his own personal transport, or him advertising (or not) the car for a ridiculous amount of money, unsurprisingly not selling it and then some time later bidding the owner a lot less money for the car. Dispirited owner feels car is not going too sell, accepts dealer offer, dealer then
sets realisitic price for car and sells it.
Exactly the scenario that Henry mentions happened in the Caterham world. The dealer had a car on SOR, sold it and didn't return the owner any money. Finally they were declared insolvent.
I'm not sure whether the owner got anything back (there was a lot of public to-ing and fro-ing on the L7 Club forum between the owner and the company concerned - they still run a racing team and therefore had their "reputation" in that area to protect).
Having said that, Caterham Cars themselves sell a lot of cars on SOR.
sets realisitic price for car and sells it.
Exactly the scenario that Henry mentions happened in the Caterham world. The dealer had a car on SOR, sold it and didn't return the owner any money. Finally they were declared insolvent.
I'm not sure whether the owner got anything back (there was a lot of public to-ing and fro-ing on the L7 Club forum between the owner and the company concerned - they still run a racing team and therefore had their "reputation" in that area to protect).
Having said that, Caterham Cars themselves sell a lot of cars on SOR.
henry-F said:
If the dealer is solvent why won`t they buy it off you outright ? If it`s because you want too much money for the car then how will they be able to sell it no matter who owns the vehicle.
Henry - I don't understand this. Surely the point about sale or return is that the seller doesn't want a trade price, he wants a private sale price, but can't deal with the hassle of time-wasting tyre kickers failing to turn up every time they agree an appointment (happened to me millions of times). Surely the seller would put a sticker price that was perhaps around or slightly above private sale price, which is obviously cheaper than a dealer price. Surely that would make the car a tempting buy?
Or did I miss the point?
SOR is a "win-win" except for the risks pointed out by Henry.
What Henry doesnt say is that a dealer will always bid you a very very low price to simply buy the car from you. What a buyer wants is a private sale price which is theoretically £3k lower than a dealer price (on Porsches above £25k). A trader wants to pay you £3k lower than the private sale price and then put on his £6k margin.
eg Lets say a Boxster 2000 X 2.7 has the following profile
Dealer price=£28k
Private Sale=£25k
Trade price=£22k
The problem for sellers is that buyers are too timid to buy privately and so they have no choice but to take a ridiculously low price from a trader. So the reality for most sellers of high value cars is that there is no such thing as a private sale price. Ahh...you might argue...there is becasue it is at a price that the car will sell to a private buyer...frankly, when you reach this price you will get lots of traders crawling out of the woodwork and buy the car to sell at a high margin.
SOR provides a half way house which acceptable to all parties BUT it relies on honesty and integrity on part of the trader.
What Henry doesnt say is that a dealer will always bid you a very very low price to simply buy the car from you. What a buyer wants is a private sale price which is theoretically £3k lower than a dealer price (on Porsches above £25k). A trader wants to pay you £3k lower than the private sale price and then put on his £6k margin.
eg Lets say a Boxster 2000 X 2.7 has the following profile
Dealer price=£28k
Private Sale=£25k
Trade price=£22k
The problem for sellers is that buyers are too timid to buy privately and so they have no choice but to take a ridiculously low price from a trader. So the reality for most sellers of high value cars is that there is no such thing as a private sale price. Ahh...you might argue...there is becasue it is at a price that the car will sell to a private buyer...frankly, when you reach this price you will get lots of traders crawling out of the woodwork and buy the car to sell at a high margin.
SOR provides a half way house which acceptable to all parties BUT it relies on honesty and integrity on part of the trader.
Just to be clear I am talking about Porsche specialists.example...a really nice RHD 964 Coupe a specialist will want to pay you £11K-£15K (for the very best) look at the asking prices
Or a LHD 964 coupe.............lovely car will be £10K tops.will retail as is for £15K if its really nice
A £5K margin is not uncommon on these cars. Ask some of the dealers who post on here.
The percentage figure depends on which you use as a reference. A 10% margin on a private selling price is typically a 20% margin on a trade price. The percentage is also likely to fall as the price of the car rises, since the margin is needed to cover fixed costs. An example of this is the bug price at 911virgin, which is almost always 2k less than the full price rather than a percantage of it.
When I sold my 944 S2 to Henry the percentage difference between his trade price and the full price was massive, but on a 30k car it would be much smaller (although still around 13%).
Paul
When I sold my 944 S2 to Henry the percentage difference between his trade price and the full price was massive, but on a 30k car it would be much smaller (although still around 13%).
Paul
£22k (trade price allowing for faults,paintwork, tyres etc)
£25k (private price or near enough 911virgin take it "as is" price")
£28k (Dealer price for a fully prepared car with a warranty)
Dealers dont work on percentage based margins. It costs almost the same to fix a clutch on a £5000 944 as a 2 year old 996.
£25k (private price or near enough 911virgin take it "as is" price")
£28k (Dealer price for a fully prepared car with a warranty)
Dealers dont work on percentage based margins. It costs almost the same to fix a clutch on a £5000 944 as a 2 year old 996.
Thanks to all for your posts.
I do want an easy life selling my car, but don’t want to take such a huge hit on the price. So SOR points to a win-win for all parties, but my big dilemma is - who are the reputable dealers that have delivered on their promise, who are the ones to avoid.
If that is beyond the scope of the forum (i.e. you cant publicly name good and bad) please drop me an email if you can.
Thanks again.
I do want an easy life selling my car, but don’t want to take such a huge hit on the price. So SOR points to a win-win for all parties, but my big dilemma is - who are the reputable dealers that have delivered on their promise, who are the ones to avoid.
If that is beyond the scope of the forum (i.e. you cant publicly name good and bad) please drop me an email if you can.
Thanks again.
darkmark said:
Thanks to all for your posts.
I do want an easy life selling my car, but don’t want to take such a huge hit on the price. So SOR points to a win-win for all parties, but my big dilemma is - who are the reputable dealers that have delivered on their promise, who are the ones to avoid.
If that is beyond the scope of the forum (i.e. you cant publicly name good and bad) please drop me an email if you can.
Thanks again.
You have mail
Some dealers will park your car in the corner, not advertise it properly, then you get fed up and sell it to them for trade anyway..........also watch out for the phone call which goes along the lines of " I have a man with me who will deal now but only for £XXX.which is generally lots less than you wanted from the SOR deal.......
All that said choose the right dealer and its good all round.
M
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