Tiptronic, would you , or wouldn't you?
Discussion
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The answer is the Tip. Best of both worlds for those that want them. It's a dual personality car, believe me, when you want to, you can really find your limits before the car does, I have driven the ragged arse of this car, on some of the most demanding roads in the UK, very rural and very remote finding out if it really is as quick, from point to point as some say. I really do defy anyone to shift gears quicker than its claimed 0.2sec, go on say "0.2secs" it's just shifted through two cogs. when it's transformed into nutter mode, and maybe i'm not as good a driver as i think i am, but it's ability to let you concentrate on 2 less processes as that tightening twistie looms ahead, and i mean ¨ø width roads with up close dry stone walls, at 'progressive' velocity, is i think a great advantage which let's me concentrate more on lining the car up and choosing a breaking point. Funnily enough, it's the fact that you can get on with the other stuff that lets you explore the engines range, eg: later braking while just bubbling under the ideal torque/HP range for slamming it out of a corner, it really is that good. I disagree with people's inference when they refer to it as ultimately, an auto box, and therefore behaves like one with its implied limitations. C'mon, do you think Porsche would put an 'ordinary' setup in their then flagship model?. They didn't, they fitted one that would exploit the car's engine and chassis dynamics. I think it's a clever well implemented system that always delivers the goods when you want them, there are other benefits to the tippy box, it has a 'slip monitoring curcuit' that senses the speed difference between axles, reassuring on slippery surfaces. Has anyone tried toe and heeling it while playing point and shoot with the triggers on the steering wheel?, marvelous. It has five gear change maps, from Economy to Sport, anyone have any info on what the other 3 are for? (Cue the pisstakers entry point...). I'll end by saying that I am not saying it is superior to a manual box, but i think it's the car as a whole that makes for for a great driving experience, and the Tippy box hold its end up at least in comparison.
Well said, Veewhy!
BTW, your reference to 'heel and toe' suggests you're still using your right foot to brake? Have you tried using your left foot? It's probably not a good idea if you're still driving manual boxes in other cars, but if you're prepared to give it a go, you might find it even better at adding to your car control.
I don't suppose Tiptronic will ever appeal to the manual drivers - not least because they've got an extra ratio to play with - but thanks to your advocacy, they ought at least to acknowledge that it has some pretty neat advantages!
BTW, your reference to 'heel and toe' suggests you're still using your right foot to brake? Have you tried using your left foot? It's probably not a good idea if you're still driving manual boxes in other cars, but if you're prepared to give it a go, you might find it even better at adding to your car control.
I don't suppose Tiptronic will ever appeal to the manual drivers - not least because they've got an extra ratio to play with - but thanks to your advocacy, they ought at least to acknowledge that it has some pretty neat advantages!
Butzi said:
Sorry for being a bit tupid, but why and how do you do the "heel toe" with the Tip? Surely the compooter will adjust the rev accordingly when you change down.
So will the synchromesh on a manual box - but drivers still do it because it's kinder mechanically than simply leaving it to the gearbox to sort it out. The same applies to a Tiptronic, though I've found it's probably unnecessary unless you're really pushing the envelope. Big changes can be made smoother with a bit of forethought, that's all.
veewhy said:
I really do defy anyone to shift gears quicker than its claimed 0.2sec, go on say "0.2secs" it's just shifted through two cogs.
I think this is a very good point about tip's. In the real world it will shift faster, and faster every time, than all but the most gifted drivers. The difference in 0-60 times then becomes irrelevant. To replicate the manual times you would really have to hammer the gearbox - not something I would want to do on a regular basis.
I quite fancy a Boxster S with Tip' for my next car. Although I will probably miss blipping the throttle on down-changes
The 996 tiptonic is not great and I got manual for that very reason. The tip gear change is far from instantaneous (IMHO) and gives somewhat of that "out of control" feeling automatics of old used to give.
Also I think having anything other than a manual box in a sportscar is a bit like having bucket seats and sports suspension in a renault espace ... you could but would you really want to!!!??
Also I think having anything other than a manual box in a sportscar is a bit like having bucket seats and sports suspension in a renault espace ... you could but would you really want to!!!??
fulham911club said:
The 996 tiptonic is not great and I got manual for that very reason. The tip gear change is far from instantaneous (IMHO) and gives somewhat of that "out of control" feeling automatics of old used to give.
Also I think having anything other than a manual box in a sportscar is a bit like having bucket seats and sports suspension in a renault espace ... you could but would you really want to!!!??
Was your experience of a Tiptronic drive confined to a road test or have you really had enough use of one to be able to judge fairly?
I suppose automatics must have some sort of advantage - after all, they were all the rage on Formula 1 cars until this year and banned only because they gave the drivers too much of an advantage. If a guy with all Schumacher's experience found it worthwhile using an auto box, who am I to argue?
The "auto" box in F1 are not like the one in Tip. They have automatic cluth and sequential gears, much like the ones in Ferrari, with no torque converters to dampen the feel of control. I'm sure the Tip will change gear faster and the car will move faster, but it's the "feel" of control that auto lacks.
I still haven't had an answer to my question. I've driven all variants of the tiptronic (including the S) up until the very recent versions on the facelifted 996s - so that's what, 2001 on?...and in all cases that horrible torque converter feel was there - didn't matter how quickly the thing changed gear, it still slushed into the next one when changing up.
The Tiptronic is a long way short of a sequential gearbox too, and it's a bit silly to compare it to an F1 'box.
I understand where Jamie is coming from too, but we do have to face facts that since 1974, Porsche has been making its product softer and widening the appeal to increase market share and profit. Only TVR and Ferrari make no concessions to the wider marketplace and the latter had always had Fiat to prop it up through the bad times.
What's the resale perspective on the tip? Used to be really bad news on the 964, but again, having read some of the comments here and watched the changes in PCGB, perhaps the demographics of Porsche ownership have changed. 20 years ago one moved through the ranks, perhaps starting with a lesser 911 (2.7 or pre impact) and then progressing to the latest 3.2.
Nowadays I think more people come straight to the 996 from perhaps a BMW rather than trading up from a Boxster or 993. Consequently they are used to more luxuries than a Porsche might traditionally have offered, and the prospect of a tiptronic is perhaps not as horrifying to them as the sportomatic was to us 20 years ago (nb did actually own a sportomatic - the forefather of the tiptronic)
The Tiptronic is a long way short of a sequential gearbox too, and it's a bit silly to compare it to an F1 'box.
I understand where Jamie is coming from too, but we do have to face facts that since 1974, Porsche has been making its product softer and widening the appeal to increase market share and profit. Only TVR and Ferrari make no concessions to the wider marketplace and the latter had always had Fiat to prop it up through the bad times.
What's the resale perspective on the tip? Used to be really bad news on the 964, but again, having read some of the comments here and watched the changes in PCGB, perhaps the demographics of Porsche ownership have changed. 20 years ago one moved through the ranks, perhaps starting with a lesser 911 (2.7 or pre impact) and then progressing to the latest 3.2.
Nowadays I think more people come straight to the 996 from perhaps a BMW rather than trading up from a Boxster or 993. Consequently they are used to more luxuries than a Porsche might traditionally have offered, and the prospect of a tiptronic is perhaps not as horrifying to them as the sportomatic was to us 20 years ago (nb did actually own a sportomatic - the forefather of the tiptronic)
rubystone said:
I still haven't had an answer to my question. I've driven all variants of the tiptronic (including the S) up until the very recent versions on the facelifted 996s - so that's what, 2001 on?...and in all cases that horrible torque converter feel was there - didn't matter how quickly the thing changed gear, it still slushed into the next one when changing up.
The Tiptronic is a long way short of a sequential gearbox too, and it's a bit silly to compare it to an F1 'box.
I tried to answer your question, but could only do so from my own experience and not from technical knowledge. As many others have said, the change is faster than most drivers of a manual could achieve, so I doubt most people would notice the torque converter effect. It's nothing like any other auto I've ever driven, and I've had quite a variety of them over the years.
BTW, I didn't compare the Tiptronic with an F1 box. I simply said that F1 drivers were driving 'auto', and so they were, last year. Yes, they had an infinitely superior sequential system, but they were using an automatic clutch. It was funny, hearing all the fuss about their having to use a clutch this year to get away from the lights, instead of the fully automatic launch system they were using before.
My point is that auto has its advantages or it wouldn't appeal to the F1 teams. I remember motor-racing when drivers got blisters from changing gear, so I can imagine how much easier 'paddling' a car along must be!
Tiptronics aren't everyone's cup of tea and we all aim to buy what we like (if we can afford it!). I like autos and no amount of macho propaganda will shift that preference: 'been there, done that'.
Tarka said:
Was your experience of a Tiptronic drive confined to a road test or have you really had enough use of one to be able to judge fairly?
I suppose automatics must have some sort of advantage - after all, they were all the rage on Formula 1 cars until this year and banned only because they gave the drivers too much of an advantage. If a guy with all Schumacher's experience found it worthwhile using an auto box, who am I to argue?
A friend has tip box on a 2002 996 so I've had a resonable play in that variant (he also after buying tiptronic now prefers manual). I also had a play in an Audi RS6 for a weekend (and I believe it shares the same tip box). Great autobahn basher but the gear box just makes it no fun.
I didn't come from BMW ownership, Just always wanted a 911 from about 10yrs old. Funny enough, i had an Omega V6, Manual!. I used to love bashing my way through it's cogs, but when I drove a Manual and Tip 993, it made for an interesting journey, The manual was on the North Circular, From mad gridlock, to nothing for a mile. The Tip was through Central London, Then up through A41 onto M1. by the time i had finished the 2nd test. I had been converted, i could suddenly see the sense in driving a tip box with triggers. 20yrs ago when roads were less clogged and we were in only stage 1 of becoming a police state, I would have gone for the manual, but in this day and age, as I said in my previous posting, it's great to have the choice. As for the torque converter feel, I can honestly say, that when the car is in nuttier mode, i can't tell the difference, the changes are that quick, and when they quickly leap through the cogs into Variothrum-land and beyond, what with the noise, if it does blip, it is still blipping quicker than a manual clutch/left foot depress, the result is sensational, for a car that a short while earlier was allowing me to just torque my way through the dense traffic. I actually like it's dual personality, it suits my moods (and of many others i would imagine), sometimes you want to just enjoy the drive, and then, you want to explore the cars other abilities. I think it detracts nothing from the real sports car pleasure to which others refer.
>> Edited by veewhy on Monday 15th March 18:40
>> Edited by veewhy on Monday 15th March 18:40
Well said again veewhy ! I've been out today for a
spin (nice twisty country roads) and bashed the tip' controls on the wheel 'till I 
laughed at the fun of it. I've no wish to sell the virtues of the Tiptronic S to anyone. But I agree with veewhy, I have a car to suit my moods from 
to 
. I'm new to Porsche so maybe I'm just enjoying a fantastic car. The Tiptronic changes don't limit my enjoyment I think it's
brill' . Will (996 C4 Tip' S)
Great thread, interesting comments.
Unless you are doing serious track day stuff where the drag of a torque converter dulls the whole business, I can't see why, given modern overcrowded road conditions, everyone doesn't plump for Tiptronic.
IMHO, it makes a box full of shafts and cogs, changed by a lever, something we should have finished with in the '30s. The Japanese have obviously missed an opportunity here!
Something no one's mentioned: the engineers at Porsche discovered the fact that a driver in a hurry moves the pedals quicker than if he's dawdling. So the Tiptronic system, along with all the G-force readings, temperatures pressures etc, also reads how quickly the pedals are actually being moved. If therefore, you’re stuck in a line of traffic and a clear bit of road is reached, not only can you kick-down, or use the steering wheel buttons to change down a gear or two, you can also just flick the accelerator, and the box will automatically slip down a ratio and be ready for the ‘off’. Likewise, if your swiftly coming down to a roundabout/slow corner from high speed say, you can again flick the accelerator either before or after the majority of the braking of course, and the box will change down a gear, ready to take the roundabout/slow corner in the lower gear and accelerate away smartly. It’s an exceptionally ‘intelligent’ auto box in that respect.
If you're using the ‘London crawling driving’ plan 1, it will change to the sportier higher rev change up points, plans 2, 3, 4, dependant upon how quickly the driver tells the box he intends to go, till he reaches plan 5 whereby the box is programmed to take the revs up to the redline ‘i.e.: running round Silverstone’ before changing up.
It takes a bit of practise this – as you approach a slow corner, blip the throttle – but it does prepare the car for a quicker exit by changing down, just as you would with a manual box, or paddle shift box. Then you still have all the beauty of a full torque converted auto for the heavy traffic situations.
Unless you are doing serious track day stuff where the drag of a torque converter dulls the whole business, I can't see why, given modern overcrowded road conditions, everyone doesn't plump for Tiptronic.
IMHO, it makes a box full of shafts and cogs, changed by a lever, something we should have finished with in the '30s. The Japanese have obviously missed an opportunity here!
Something no one's mentioned: the engineers at Porsche discovered the fact that a driver in a hurry moves the pedals quicker than if he's dawdling. So the Tiptronic system, along with all the G-force readings, temperatures pressures etc, also reads how quickly the pedals are actually being moved. If therefore, you’re stuck in a line of traffic and a clear bit of road is reached, not only can you kick-down, or use the steering wheel buttons to change down a gear or two, you can also just flick the accelerator, and the box will automatically slip down a ratio and be ready for the ‘off’. Likewise, if your swiftly coming down to a roundabout/slow corner from high speed say, you can again flick the accelerator either before or after the majority of the braking of course, and the box will change down a gear, ready to take the roundabout/slow corner in the lower gear and accelerate away smartly. It’s an exceptionally ‘intelligent’ auto box in that respect.
If you're using the ‘London crawling driving’ plan 1, it will change to the sportier higher rev change up points, plans 2, 3, 4, dependant upon how quickly the driver tells the box he intends to go, till he reaches plan 5 whereby the box is programmed to take the revs up to the redline ‘i.e.: running round Silverstone’ before changing up.
It takes a bit of practise this – as you approach a slow corner, blip the throttle – but it does prepare the car for a quicker exit by changing down, just as you would with a manual box, or paddle shift box. Then you still have all the beauty of a full torque converted auto for the heavy traffic situations.
Having gotten the oppty to get a passenger ride round Millbrook proving ground by Richard Attwood (ex F1 & Le mans winner) during a Porsche GB open day at the 99TT launch , he said that he'd choose the TIP box vs. the manual for everyday road use. He suggested that mere mortals are unlikey to be able to make manual changes faster than the TIP does it.
I dont think TIP has any affect on residuals as 40% + of 996's are shipped new with the TIP option.
TIP vs. Man ? Down to personal preference and I have no regrets about choosing a TIP
I dont think TIP has any affect on residuals as 40% + of 996's are shipped new with the TIP option.
TIP vs. Man ? Down to personal preference and I have no regrets about choosing a TIP
toby tucker said:
I dont think TIP has any affect on residuals as 40% + of 996's are shipped new with the TIP option.
Maybe for the 996 TIP has no impact on residuals, but I've been looking at the UK market for LHD 993s for a while now. Seems to me that the manual 993s sell quickly, and the TIP versions hang around for ages. Anything that hangs around for ages eventually has to get cheaper...
Nel
For me, its got nothing to do with the speed of gear change, i couldnt give a monkies if its 100x quicker than I can change..
its ALL to do with the control..
Knowing i can dip the clutch whenever I want... the control for pulling away with 'just' that little bit of spin... the ability to slip the clutch if i want... the ability to drop a cog approaching a corner.. but hold off on dropping the clutch back in for a second...
I have no doubt a tip car could be faster round a track.. but its not about overall balls out speed... its about extracting every last ounce of pleasure from my motorvehicle..
Or at least, thats what owning a porsche used to be about..
its just a 'shame' they make such great every day cars...
Ask yourself this.. can you EVER see them releasing a GT3 Tip ? or a Tip RS ?
its ALL to do with the control..
Knowing i can dip the clutch whenever I want... the control for pulling away with 'just' that little bit of spin... the ability to slip the clutch if i want... the ability to drop a cog approaching a corner.. but hold off on dropping the clutch back in for a second...
I have no doubt a tip car could be faster round a track.. but its not about overall balls out speed... its about extracting every last ounce of pleasure from my motorvehicle..
Or at least, thats what owning a porsche used to be about..
its just a 'shame' they make such great every day cars...
Ask yourself this.. can you EVER see them releasing a GT3 Tip ? or a Tip RS ?
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