997 cylinder liners
Discussion
I don't know the answer to that one Steve but for sure - in this modern World - manufacturers are considering this and making decisions about it - whereas when Porsche fisrt made 911's and never made any profit - I don't think it was the first priority.
The odd thing is that it can be cheaper to design and manufacture in such a way that say 2.5% may fail (and simply replace those that do FOC) than try and manufacture in such a way that 0% will ever fail. This is the way that most TV's and washing machines are made and I think cars are not so dissimilar.
What is a little odd is offering almost no support or help when it may fail.
I don't think Porsche knew some things would fail when they designed the car - but they simply tried to design and manufacture a car that would result in greater profit (which they needed to reinvest and survive) and in doing so some small items were just so close to the limit that they failed in a few cases.
I think if they knew how profitable they were going to become they made have had a policy to help subsidise the cost of fixing what have become obvious weak spots - or they may simply have felt the small numbers involved compared to continued growth of the product sales - meant they didn't have to bother.
Baz
The odd thing is that it can be cheaper to design and manufacture in such a way that say 2.5% may fail (and simply replace those that do FOC) than try and manufacture in such a way that 0% will ever fail. This is the way that most TV's and washing machines are made and I think cars are not so dissimilar.
What is a little odd is offering almost no support or help when it may fail.
I don't think Porsche knew some things would fail when they designed the car - but they simply tried to design and manufacture a car that would result in greater profit (which they needed to reinvest and survive) and in doing so some small items were just so close to the limit that they failed in a few cases.
I think if they knew how profitable they were going to become they made have had a policy to help subsidise the cost of fixing what have become obvious weak spots - or they may simply have felt the small numbers involved compared to continued growth of the product sales - meant they didn't have to bother.
Baz
nelly997s said:
i know the engine ecu holds the over rev history in 6 bands and the oil will be tested before the strip along with other tests
as suggested by another comment earlier in this topic i dont expect to get far and have budgeted for sleves, clutch,balance,1 new piston, rings
rebuild but if porsche could be a little more helpful it would go to them and I would part with some cash to save the cars status.
Hello,as suggested by another comment earlier in this topic i dont expect to get far and have budgeted for sleves, clutch,balance,1 new piston, rings
rebuild but if porsche could be a little more helpful it would go to them and I would part with some cash to save the cars status.
I have dealer experience and have never seen an oil sample request for an engine failure...nevermind a common failure..
To add to your list of parts budgeted for you will need a new set of crank cases (£2.5K) and full set of rings..! Also the old pistons will need to be inspected and replaced if needed.
If going down the Hartech rebuild option you will have no problem convincing anyone who is serious about 996/997 ownership that it may be the better option, in my opinion it is sometimes better to have a new engine with 2 year warranty and a fresh set of ancillaries for £8K but the engines were just £6K 3 months ago ! So the more expensive Porsche keep making the prices the better it will be for the Hartech option... Also you know that the modified/rebuilt engines will be enhanched and hopefully not have a shelf life of 3years..+/- before they need rebuilding..! (Am sure Baz/Grant will confirm anything I have said that may or may not be correct..?)
They are doing a fantastic job at offering an alternative to just a new unit, that not everyone can afford... and althought there are ALOT of people offering this rebuild service I bet there are less than 2 respectable outfits offering this and one of those uses a product from the USA, not made/designed in house !
We have a similar setup with our gearboxes we rebuild, the outlay is huge but in time there will only be one name that people will call for a rebuild.... hopefully !
Hope that you get your 997 sorted.
Regards
Mike
nelly997s said:
thanks
dont you think though a £79 k car and a company ,possibly one of the most profitable in europe under the banner of quality engineering and procedure could be more helpful and specific when it comes to this problem
Well they have got away with it for 15 years so why would they start now !dont you think though a £79 k car and a company ,possibly one of the most profitable in europe under the banner of quality engineering and procedure could be more helpful and specific when it comes to this problem
Mike
Tried to stay out of this, but I can't now, so here goes. Sorry for the long post.I can see why Hartech and Nelly had a (mild by my standards) falling out, but I can also see each side's points, so I'm glad they've made up.
Now, Steve, the 996-997 reliability thread points to a failure rate of double figures. The failure rate is not 5%. It is likely higher, but for the sake of the apologists, I've said we should use 5%, which is still a failure rate unheard of for other cars (higher cost, equivalent cost or lower cost).
Nelly, Porsche is not the most profitable car company in the world. IIRC, VW probably is. Porsche's profits were - and still are - an accounting opinion that didn't stack up when a certain hedge squeeze went wrong. Porsche needs every penny it can get. They're still not selling as many cars as they need to (even with China's market growth and a 26% increase in year on year sales to date in the UK). The company's likely pretty skint, and is still defending major lawsuits (billions at stake).
Why should this matter to you, Nelly? Because Porsche may not have the dosh to do you right as you (and I) might see fit. These 997 engine failures are not rare. They were when (in 2006-2007) I was being excoriated by some of the apologists on here, but I reckon they've got their tails between their legs now.
Many a 997 owner on here will not contact you to give you support because of their own (perhaps understandable) selfish interests in money (residuals) and plain psychology (denial). For the former, they're deluding themselves more. These cars are depreciating like mad precisely because everyone in the trade knows about their engine problems, and the extended warranty means a higher risk premium.
If you're concerned about resale value, it is too late for you, Nelly. Unless you do indeed get a Hartech (or Autofarm) fix and market to the enthusiasts on here who know what that means and is worth. For the average Joe and Josephine, OPC engined cars will do.
Does Porsche care? Probably not. Most of the premium German marques now design for a useful life of six-seven years. Thereafter, scrap the car, they say. They really don't want them running for years - and these pesky 993s just won't die, will they?
Anyone thinking of porker ownership needs to do so with their eyes fully open - do your research. Mercedes, at least for their AMG cars (IIRC) have a warning light to remind you not to be too enthusiastic until your oil (engine and/or gearbox, I think) arrives at the required threshold temperature. You won’t find many engine failures on these, IIRC. They also warn you to run the car in for x miles (1k or 1.5k, I think). Do Porsche offer either of those? Rhetorical question, most of you know the answers to that.
Good luck with the request, Nelly, and good luck to Hartech and Sportsandclassic. Any extra headlines you bring to this problem will irk owners more than it will Porsche. Porsche may not be too pleased with what you're all doing, but as long as they're still making some money off you, their displeasure will likely be palatable.
Edited by bcnrml on Thursday 7th October 21:45
sportsandclassic said:
...They are doing a fantastic job at offering an alternative to just a new unit, that not everyone can afford... and althought there are ALOT of people offering this rebuild service I bet there are less than 2 respectable outfits offering this and one of those uses a product from the USA, not made/designed in house !...
Sorry Mike, I have to take issue with this..."less than 2 respectable outfits" suggests there is only one respectable outfit, Hartech in this instance. That is simply not true. Although I know Autofarm now use the LN Engineering IMS, since this thread is about liners, perhaps it is not common knowledge that Autofarm developed their own solution (with the well respected firm, Capricorn) a fair while ago - Silsleeve:
http://www.autofarm.co.uk/engines/water_cooled/sil...
So, I am a little bit confused by what you have written, if I am honest. Yes, they look after my car and I consider them friends, but I don't see them as being less respectable than Hartech and they are more local for those of us 'down south'.
My apologies if I have read that wrong.
dom9 said:
sportsandclassic said:
...They are doing a fantastic job at offering an alternative to just a new unit, that not everyone can afford... and althought there are ALOT of people offering this rebuild service I bet there are less than 2 respectable outfits offering this and one of those uses a product from the USA, not made/designed in house !...
Sorry Mike, I have to take issue with this..."less than 2 respectable outfits" suggests there is only one respectable outfit, Hartech in this instance. That is simply not true. Although I know Autofarm now use the LN Engineering IMS, since this thread is about liners, perhaps it is not common knowledge that Autofarm developed their own solution (with the well respected firm, Capricorn) a fair while ago - Silsleeve:
http://www.autofarm.co.uk/engines/water_cooled/sil...
So, I am a little bit confused by what you have written, if I am honest. Yes, they look after my car and I consider them friends, but I don't see them as being less respectable than Hartech and they are more local for those of us 'down south'.
My apologies if I have read that wrong.
Just before I get off to work, I was under the impression that Autofarm used the silsleeve liners which I was told was made in the USA and they were taking all the credit for the liners .... stand to be corrected ? Autofarm were the other respected reduilder I was referring to in my original post.
As for the LN engineering bearing I have spoken with them in the USA and have been told things that I really should not repeat on a forum, but lets just say we will not be offering this service with their product.
Sorry if you have taken offence by my post, but was just pointing out that as far as I am aware Hartech do it all in house unlike other companies so credit where credit is due.
Mike
The Autofarm solution was developed by their engine guru (now left, with his own air cooled engine building firm, I forget his name - apologies) and the guys at Capricorn, who do a lot of work with F1 engines, if I am not mistaken. So, although (arguably) not entirely in-house, the effort was initiated and led by Autofarm and done in the UK.
Is there a better engineering team that that, for this solution, really? And that is not meant as a put down to Baz as I recommend people to go to and talk to him, but it is a credit where credit is due situation.
The Silsleeve solution, although possibly similar to what Jake Raby/ LN Engineering offer, is NOT related, as far as I am aware - Though I would be happy to be corrected.
I have heard nothing but good things about the LN Engineering IMS, so I would be interested to know what you have heard, offline if necessary as it was something I had been considering. I was under the impression (and I used to speak to Jake, on and off) that they had had zero failures and quite a few engines with 10's of 1000's of miles running that IMS.
However, I know that some guys in Spain weren't too impressed with any IMS solution in general and developed their own (have a search on the 6Speed 996 forum), which is meant to be guarantied for life, but is much more expensive.
(Touching wood - not my own) My IMS and cyclinder liners have been fine and my car has over 80k miles on it, including trackdays, running many (supposedly) performance enhancing parts which (maybe) ought to stress the engine more. Next time I have my clutch done, will I change the IMS... Maybe, but if you are doing it for peace of mind, then maybe you also do all the cylinder liners at the same time and have a full rebuild!?
Sorry for taking this off topic but as someone who wants to tune the M96 engine, all of these issues are very interesting to me and the fact that it is not just the liners that cause (arguably) regular issues should be off interest to the OP for any complaint towards Porsche.
Edited to add (for IMS): http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996/223491-ulti...
Is there a better engineering team that that, for this solution, really? And that is not meant as a put down to Baz as I recommend people to go to and talk to him, but it is a credit where credit is due situation.
The Silsleeve solution, although possibly similar to what Jake Raby/ LN Engineering offer, is NOT related, as far as I am aware - Though I would be happy to be corrected.
I have heard nothing but good things about the LN Engineering IMS, so I would be interested to know what you have heard, offline if necessary as it was something I had been considering. I was under the impression (and I used to speak to Jake, on and off) that they had had zero failures and quite a few engines with 10's of 1000's of miles running that IMS.
However, I know that some guys in Spain weren't too impressed with any IMS solution in general and developed their own (have a search on the 6Speed 996 forum), which is meant to be guarantied for life, but is much more expensive.
(Touching wood - not my own) My IMS and cyclinder liners have been fine and my car has over 80k miles on it, including trackdays, running many (supposedly) performance enhancing parts which (maybe) ought to stress the engine more. Next time I have my clutch done, will I change the IMS... Maybe, but if you are doing it for peace of mind, then maybe you also do all the cylinder liners at the same time and have a full rebuild!?
Sorry for taking this off topic but as someone who wants to tune the M96 engine, all of these issues are very interesting to me and the fact that it is not just the liners that cause (arguably) regular issues should be off interest to the OP for any complaint towards Porsche.
Edited to add (for IMS): http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996/223491-ulti...
Edited by dom9 on Friday 8th October 06:26
Lots to respond to this time productively - I hope and quite a lot I agree with you about.
Lets get one thing straight right away - these bores do not score due to a cylinder liner material problem and rings don't cause it in these engines. All the cars and engines we have repaired that had scored bores were still running - some perfectly normally - some with a little more smoke or oil consumption - some noisy - but ALL ON STRIP DOWN HAD SEIZED PISTONS and this was the cause of the original scoring.
Now it sounds far less serious to inform a customer "sorry you have some scoring in your bores" - than "you have a seized piston or two". one explanation can be put down to some minor occurence whereas the other suggests a design or manufacturing fault if repeated elsewhere.
Pistons expand when running and when they seize on one side (as these all have) they rub alloy off the piston and are a little smaller afterwards. The seizure is only partial and they run OK afterwards (if the seizure was not too severe - which it never is if it seized only on one side). However the cylinder compression on that cylinder will then be marginally down and so it will no longer get as hot again and never expand again to be so tight in the bore that it seizes again - hence it will run until either the oil consumption gets too high or the piston tilts enough for the top to touch the head and make a tapping sound.
Without stripping down it is possible to put a camera in the bores to reveal the only problem being scoring - but after a strip down seized pistons will certainly be found inside. Stating the cause is the piston rings can only be a guess and has never been the case in our experience.
Porsche's only solution to this is usually a new engine (since they would need new cases and pistons etc and loads of hours @ over £100/hour labour rates to repair it - which would end up more expensive than taking their discount on the spares price of a new engine or the re-charge to Porsche if a warranty job.
You are quite right that the catch is that to find out you have to strip it down and then you have paid so much to do that - the option of then bringing all the bits to us is too expensive on top and that option is usually lost. This is why we always advise to get the whole car here - as a repair by us is then viable.
We have actually received several stripped down engines (some collected from Main Dealers) where various explanations have been offered as to the cause of the fault and the impossibility of a repair withou a new engine - usually finding very minor damage in a small isolated area and easily rebuilding the engine perfectly satisfactorily at a much lower cost - but this new cylinder scoring phenomenon has intriduced advise without stripping that in every case we have seen - it wrong.
I agree this fault should not occur and that lots more will follow - but I think you (and others) are being mislead about the seriousness of the cause - which I believe to be a basic design weakness that I am presently testing and will soon be able to report on.
When problems like this occur - small Independents offer a brilliant service well beyond what they should have to do for their customers and in this regard specialisation is the only way it can be viable - each small specialist investing in one particular area of expertise and then being able to offer something helpfull. From this - experts in suspension geometry, engines , gearboxes, track preparation, turbocharging etc - all come to the fore and ifthey were not so damned independent in spirit they would realise it is better to work together in this area than try and be jacks of all trades. Many Independnetd do use us for engine rebuilds - because they realise these issues and we also use the expertise of others when they have a greater knowlege base in that area than us - it is the way forward and I think we would serve our customers better if technology exchange became more understood - perhaps through an Independent organisation.
Although we have repaired the gearboxes and Mike has repared engines (and are both perfectly capable of doing so) - we both agree that in the future it would probably make more commercial sense TO EACH USE EACH OTHER FOR ONE AREA OF SPECIALISATION - US ENGINES HIM GEARBOXES BECAUSE THIS GIVES A CHANCE TO JUSTIFY INVESTMENT AND INCREASE PURCHASING POWER TO MANUFACTURE OR STOCK THE PARTS AND TOOLING NECCESSARY AND PAY FOR TRAINING ETC. As a result - each specialist gets more to repair and finds out more aout the base causes and how to fix them as well.
We have for example - just recently bought two more precision machinines and recruited two more staff - to improve our ability to respond quickly and in sufficient quantities. I guess overall with building, equipment, spares, tooling, training, testing, patterns, etc, etc we have invested around £250,000 in this additional engine repair capability - and you cannot do that for every area of expertise required.
While the benefit of handling 100's of engine rebuilds helps isolate one offs and concentrate on obvious weaknesses - the logistics of repairing a lot of engines are frightening. Each car takes up storage space - the engine auxiliaries (that have to be removed before we can get to the engine bock) fill a pallet that needs storing. The engine internals take two racks of shelving to lay out and then there is cleaning, measuring etc. We have built two clean rooms for re-assembly each needing shelving, engine stands, lighting etc and a massive stores area for new and used parts - all this is to handle at any one time an average of 8 cars for direct customrs and 4 engines for other Independent specialists - all working their way through the workshops at various stages of rebuild and usually getting completed within 3 - 4 weeks.
Because the relative size of most Independents compared to Porsche is miniscule - I never criticise any of our competitors who are trying to help owners (when Porsche don't) as they are usually doing well beyond the call of normal duty and I spend my time concentrating instead on what I can do to help my customers that someone else is not already doing well enough and in sufficient quantity to support demand.
Unfortunately for each of us - both ourselves and Autofarm independently got involved in repairing these engines before we knew about each others plans - so we have come up with some different solutions - but I think there is enough business for both of us so we should still get a satsifactory return from our investment and anyway - thankfully we are both at different ends of the Country. I think we both do an excellent job - in a slightly different way that will probably suit different customer needs - although our additional offer of a Lifetime Maintenance Plan means that anyone on our Plan would only pay for parts if their engine expired.
We tend to repair the std engine and improve known weak spots whereas they seem to offer a more standard rebuild - whatever the fault. Anyone interested should discuss their needs with both and see which suits them best.
We do manufacture and stock liners for theses engines and so if only one or two bores have failed we can repair the existing crankcases, but if more than that have failed a new set of cases may be no more expensive.
So Confident am I that - if you have been told your bores are scored due to a ring problem - I will collect the car and strip it down and if the pistons have not seized I will not charge you for that part of the job (i.e. will subsidise the repair you will then need or just charge for the new engine you prefer to have ftted) but if I am right I would expect full payment under our normal prices and terms - to repair your engine - probably around £5K would be typical. If you are right then a new Porsche engine from us would still undercut Porsches prices significantly.
We are also not only investing in the repair of this fault when it has already happened - but trying to find out how to stop it happeneing for everyone else without the expense of an engine repair (which in my view is well above the call of duty) because we agree with you that it is unreasonable to endure the numbers failing without help from the manufacturer.
Now that comments about F1 engineers etc has been thrown into this it seems to verify some kind of superiority - may I modestly just state for comparison that I am not only a professionally qualified engineer and former board director of public and private engineering companies in Automotive, composite and aerospace industries - but also many years ago designed and manufactured engines and gearboxes that won hundreds of races up to GP level, gearboxes and engines that became the next years works engines for Barry Sheene etc -the Silver Dream Racer for the David Essex film, composite parts for Lotus and tooling for Rolls Royce fan blades etc - and I am in house here now directing both the design, development and manufacture of our services and products - so we don't need to feel inferior in anyway to anything others are promoting - indeed I don't think anyone else has anything comparable, especially as we also employ two other degree qualified automotive engineers.
Finally - I think that having control of all the design and manufacturing In House speeds up our throughput - improves control and quality and enables us to experiment more quickly and on a wider front.
If anyone thinks they may have scored bores - I seriously recommend they do not just fit another engine - dont pay to have it stripped down elsewhere and simply come talk to us first.
Baz
Lets get one thing straight right away - these bores do not score due to a cylinder liner material problem and rings don't cause it in these engines. All the cars and engines we have repaired that had scored bores were still running - some perfectly normally - some with a little more smoke or oil consumption - some noisy - but ALL ON STRIP DOWN HAD SEIZED PISTONS and this was the cause of the original scoring.
Now it sounds far less serious to inform a customer "sorry you have some scoring in your bores" - than "you have a seized piston or two". one explanation can be put down to some minor occurence whereas the other suggests a design or manufacturing fault if repeated elsewhere.
Pistons expand when running and when they seize on one side (as these all have) they rub alloy off the piston and are a little smaller afterwards. The seizure is only partial and they run OK afterwards (if the seizure was not too severe - which it never is if it seized only on one side). However the cylinder compression on that cylinder will then be marginally down and so it will no longer get as hot again and never expand again to be so tight in the bore that it seizes again - hence it will run until either the oil consumption gets too high or the piston tilts enough for the top to touch the head and make a tapping sound.
Without stripping down it is possible to put a camera in the bores to reveal the only problem being scoring - but after a strip down seized pistons will certainly be found inside. Stating the cause is the piston rings can only be a guess and has never been the case in our experience.
Porsche's only solution to this is usually a new engine (since they would need new cases and pistons etc and loads of hours @ over £100/hour labour rates to repair it - which would end up more expensive than taking their discount on the spares price of a new engine or the re-charge to Porsche if a warranty job.
You are quite right that the catch is that to find out you have to strip it down and then you have paid so much to do that - the option of then bringing all the bits to us is too expensive on top and that option is usually lost. This is why we always advise to get the whole car here - as a repair by us is then viable.
We have actually received several stripped down engines (some collected from Main Dealers) where various explanations have been offered as to the cause of the fault and the impossibility of a repair withou a new engine - usually finding very minor damage in a small isolated area and easily rebuilding the engine perfectly satisfactorily at a much lower cost - but this new cylinder scoring phenomenon has intriduced advise without stripping that in every case we have seen - it wrong.
I agree this fault should not occur and that lots more will follow - but I think you (and others) are being mislead about the seriousness of the cause - which I believe to be a basic design weakness that I am presently testing and will soon be able to report on.
When problems like this occur - small Independents offer a brilliant service well beyond what they should have to do for their customers and in this regard specialisation is the only way it can be viable - each small specialist investing in one particular area of expertise and then being able to offer something helpfull. From this - experts in suspension geometry, engines , gearboxes, track preparation, turbocharging etc - all come to the fore and ifthey were not so damned independent in spirit they would realise it is better to work together in this area than try and be jacks of all trades. Many Independnetd do use us for engine rebuilds - because they realise these issues and we also use the expertise of others when they have a greater knowlege base in that area than us - it is the way forward and I think we would serve our customers better if technology exchange became more understood - perhaps through an Independent organisation.
Although we have repaired the gearboxes and Mike has repared engines (and are both perfectly capable of doing so) - we both agree that in the future it would probably make more commercial sense TO EACH USE EACH OTHER FOR ONE AREA OF SPECIALISATION - US ENGINES HIM GEARBOXES BECAUSE THIS GIVES A CHANCE TO JUSTIFY INVESTMENT AND INCREASE PURCHASING POWER TO MANUFACTURE OR STOCK THE PARTS AND TOOLING NECCESSARY AND PAY FOR TRAINING ETC. As a result - each specialist gets more to repair and finds out more aout the base causes and how to fix them as well.
We have for example - just recently bought two more precision machinines and recruited two more staff - to improve our ability to respond quickly and in sufficient quantities. I guess overall with building, equipment, spares, tooling, training, testing, patterns, etc, etc we have invested around £250,000 in this additional engine repair capability - and you cannot do that for every area of expertise required.
While the benefit of handling 100's of engine rebuilds helps isolate one offs and concentrate on obvious weaknesses - the logistics of repairing a lot of engines are frightening. Each car takes up storage space - the engine auxiliaries (that have to be removed before we can get to the engine bock) fill a pallet that needs storing. The engine internals take two racks of shelving to lay out and then there is cleaning, measuring etc. We have built two clean rooms for re-assembly each needing shelving, engine stands, lighting etc and a massive stores area for new and used parts - all this is to handle at any one time an average of 8 cars for direct customrs and 4 engines for other Independent specialists - all working their way through the workshops at various stages of rebuild and usually getting completed within 3 - 4 weeks.
Because the relative size of most Independents compared to Porsche is miniscule - I never criticise any of our competitors who are trying to help owners (when Porsche don't) as they are usually doing well beyond the call of normal duty and I spend my time concentrating instead on what I can do to help my customers that someone else is not already doing well enough and in sufficient quantity to support demand.
Unfortunately for each of us - both ourselves and Autofarm independently got involved in repairing these engines before we knew about each others plans - so we have come up with some different solutions - but I think there is enough business for both of us so we should still get a satsifactory return from our investment and anyway - thankfully we are both at different ends of the Country. I think we both do an excellent job - in a slightly different way that will probably suit different customer needs - although our additional offer of a Lifetime Maintenance Plan means that anyone on our Plan would only pay for parts if their engine expired.
We tend to repair the std engine and improve known weak spots whereas they seem to offer a more standard rebuild - whatever the fault. Anyone interested should discuss their needs with both and see which suits them best.
We do manufacture and stock liners for theses engines and so if only one or two bores have failed we can repair the existing crankcases, but if more than that have failed a new set of cases may be no more expensive.
So Confident am I that - if you have been told your bores are scored due to a ring problem - I will collect the car and strip it down and if the pistons have not seized I will not charge you for that part of the job (i.e. will subsidise the repair you will then need or just charge for the new engine you prefer to have ftted) but if I am right I would expect full payment under our normal prices and terms - to repair your engine - probably around £5K would be typical. If you are right then a new Porsche engine from us would still undercut Porsches prices significantly.
We are also not only investing in the repair of this fault when it has already happened - but trying to find out how to stop it happeneing for everyone else without the expense of an engine repair (which in my view is well above the call of duty) because we agree with you that it is unreasonable to endure the numbers failing without help from the manufacturer.
Now that comments about F1 engineers etc has been thrown into this it seems to verify some kind of superiority - may I modestly just state for comparison that I am not only a professionally qualified engineer and former board director of public and private engineering companies in Automotive, composite and aerospace industries - but also many years ago designed and manufactured engines and gearboxes that won hundreds of races up to GP level, gearboxes and engines that became the next years works engines for Barry Sheene etc -the Silver Dream Racer for the David Essex film, composite parts for Lotus and tooling for Rolls Royce fan blades etc - and I am in house here now directing both the design, development and manufacture of our services and products - so we don't need to feel inferior in anyway to anything others are promoting - indeed I don't think anyone else has anything comparable, especially as we also employ two other degree qualified automotive engineers.
Finally - I think that having control of all the design and manufacturing In House speeds up our throughput - improves control and quality and enables us to experiment more quickly and on a wider front.
If anyone thinks they may have scored bores - I seriously recommend they do not just fit another engine - dont pay to have it stripped down elsewhere and simply come talk to us first.
Baz
If Porsche were any good they should be fixing these engines foc. Toyota had a fundamental problem with a batch of engines, and they are covering them up to seven years old even with patchy service histories. I was going to change mine to a 997 next year but these type of horror stories would put you off. i cant imagine a Gtr needing an engine every two years
But surely this should be the start of a (albeit expensive) solution that will at last return a little confidence to the unfortunate 5% ??
A new engine with some contribution from Porsche is one option --- if not a long term answer to the problem, but when Porsche claim that 75% of the cars ever built are still driveable --- and consider this an accolade, Baz' solution has got to be encouraged.
Porsche should be contributing to this IMHO ....
All manufacturers create problems, shortening product cycles make it less viable to comprehensively solve yesterday's problem ... but for that reason I do ask, has the new Direct Injection engine such issues ?
And, as an aside, is this one reason why 996 GT3's and Turbo's are becoming better and better value for money ?
A new engine with some contribution from Porsche is one option --- if not a long term answer to the problem, but when Porsche claim that 75% of the cars ever built are still driveable --- and consider this an accolade, Baz' solution has got to be encouraged.
Porsche should be contributing to this IMHO ....
All manufacturers create problems, shortening product cycles make it less viable to comprehensively solve yesterday's problem ... but for that reason I do ask, has the new Direct Injection engine such issues ?
And, as an aside, is this one reason why 996 GT3's and Turbo's are becoming better and better value for money ?
Edited by ChrisW. on Saturday 9th October 10:11
Pope said:
Some questions for Baz if I may be so bold as to hijack this thread a little?
What is causing the issue?
Engine A is technically the same as engine B, what is making engine B more likely to fail?
Not for an engineering numpty to respond (but that's never stopped me!). In the general case it'll be tolerances and circumstances. No two engines can ever be the same at the engineering tolerance level. No two engines will go through the same circumstances in use. So in certain circumstances with engines of a certain tolerance.What is causing the issue?
Engine A is technically the same as engine B, what is making engine B more likely to fail?
Now Baz can actually give a proper answer!
As a supplementary question, I am confused by the term seized. For me seized means a permanent stoppage. When a bearing does what I think Baz is referring to with pistons, we say it "picks up". Is seized the best term for what has happened betwixt piston and bore?
Bert
The type of damage to one face of the piston is deep and rough and only comes about when it is forced against the cylinder face too much for the lubricant to support. Usually this type of damage would be on both faces and although it is on one face it is worse than just a "pick up" but I suppose you could call it that if you wanted to.
Often damage to the big end shell on that cylinder shows high loading and this (and many other symptoms) suggest the piston was too hot on one side but the other side was still lubricated or supported OK because the oil was coler and thicker.
We are much further forward in our analysis and testing than we have so far revealed because we want to be sure but next week I will reveal some interesting statistics and engineered calculations about comparative coolant flow etc.
Baz
Often damage to the big end shell on that cylinder shows high loading and this (and many other symptoms) suggest the piston was too hot on one side but the other side was still lubricated or supported OK because the oil was coler and thicker.
We are much further forward in our analysis and testing than we have so far revealed because we want to be sure but next week I will reveal some interesting statistics and engineered calculations about comparative coolant flow etc.
Baz
Nelly, sorry to hear that you have one of these new disposable porsche engines.
At the sort of money they charge for their cars, we would expect better. I have not owned a Korean car, but they offer a 7 year warranty - no quibble. And the cars are not overpriced. Come to think of it - I never heard of an unreliable one either. Any way - dont be tempted by a Kia just yet, a GTR might be a good compromise though - phenominal engineering, but I like the rear engine traction and light front end which you will be familiar with.
One good point about the 996 / 7 models is that apart from a rubbish cheapskate wet sump flat 6 engine, they really are a great car. Brakes, Transmission, Balance, Steering, Electrical, Comfort, reliability(excl engine core). Ok they get through front rads and the early ones rusted at the door catch but otherwise, they are really good.
Its clear Porsche have bigger fish to fry, they dont care and the expense of replacement on such a wide scale is prohibitive. (If it was one failure in 1000, they would avoid the flak and fix it, as other companies in various industries do)
I felt I was reading about the solution though when Hartech outlined some of their thoughts, especially on specialisation. I once worked in the Medical industry, and they do it. Medical centres specialise in Heart surgery, or renal care or orthopaedics, and they are really good at it. Success rates are increased, and efficiencies are increased. One centre (in Europe, not England or Ireland where I live) had a team of doctors / Surgeons who could do minimum 15 or 20 open heart cases per day 5 days per week, (approx 10k cases per annum). It was recognised as a world class operation. It was a private centre (not NHS).
Perhaps going forward, the "small" Independent specialist engineering resource which exists in England (and Ireland too except we dont have the critical mass) will study the root causes and develop solutions which are genuine and cost effective. A Porsche solution is not worth a light as it is to the same design with the inherent flaw which caused the issue originally. Hartech reads like an example of this IMO.
If proper solutions become available, perhaps you can have your 997 and following a bit of work to eliminate the design flaw/s, you can enjoy 100k+ reliable miles of silky performance as drivers of 944's, 968's, 964's, 993's, 996tt/GT's, are with traditional porsche engineering. (assuming they still have some engineering cred')
Your ultimate problem is - what else drives like a rear engined 2wd Porsche?
George
At the sort of money they charge for their cars, we would expect better. I have not owned a Korean car, but they offer a 7 year warranty - no quibble. And the cars are not overpriced. Come to think of it - I never heard of an unreliable one either. Any way - dont be tempted by a Kia just yet, a GTR might be a good compromise though - phenominal engineering, but I like the rear engine traction and light front end which you will be familiar with.
One good point about the 996 / 7 models is that apart from a rubbish cheapskate wet sump flat 6 engine, they really are a great car. Brakes, Transmission, Balance, Steering, Electrical, Comfort, reliability(excl engine core). Ok they get through front rads and the early ones rusted at the door catch but otherwise, they are really good.
Its clear Porsche have bigger fish to fry, they dont care and the expense of replacement on such a wide scale is prohibitive. (If it was one failure in 1000, they would avoid the flak and fix it, as other companies in various industries do)
I felt I was reading about the solution though when Hartech outlined some of their thoughts, especially on specialisation. I once worked in the Medical industry, and they do it. Medical centres specialise in Heart surgery, or renal care or orthopaedics, and they are really good at it. Success rates are increased, and efficiencies are increased. One centre (in Europe, not England or Ireland where I live) had a team of doctors / Surgeons who could do minimum 15 or 20 open heart cases per day 5 days per week, (approx 10k cases per annum). It was recognised as a world class operation. It was a private centre (not NHS).
Perhaps going forward, the "small" Independent specialist engineering resource which exists in England (and Ireland too except we dont have the critical mass) will study the root causes and develop solutions which are genuine and cost effective. A Porsche solution is not worth a light as it is to the same design with the inherent flaw which caused the issue originally. Hartech reads like an example of this IMO.
If proper solutions become available, perhaps you can have your 997 and following a bit of work to eliminate the design flaw/s, you can enjoy 100k+ reliable miles of silky performance as drivers of 944's, 968's, 964's, 993's, 996tt/GT's, are with traditional porsche engineering. (assuming they still have some engineering cred')
Your ultimate problem is - what else drives like a rear engined 2wd Porsche?
George
Hi Guys n Girls little about me first. I have owned an engine rebuild company(Southern Engine Services London)since the 1983 at the age of 17. I also purchased my first Porsche 911 sc from Nick faure in the same year. I have owned 924/944/928s 930 turbo. I then had a break of 6 or so years because of the Engine issues Porsche where suffering. I know have a 08 GT3 and a 03 Boxster S.
I have read this Forum with intrest and would like first to say that what Hartech are doing should be supported. I know the costs and time involved in removing,stripping and assembling these engines and it adds up to a tidy sum each time. I wish them well in reclaiming there money once a remedy is found. KEEP IT UP GUYS
My own thoughts and experiences are my 10,000 mile GT3 has already had RMS (rear main seal) changed. My buddy has had 3 RMS on a GT3 but he tracks it 6500 miles.
My Boxster s with 53k genuine miles FPSH has just suffered IMS failure (intermediate shaft failure) Luckily I still build Engines for a living so not too mad for me. But still £3k for all the bits and lots of labour.
I am getting around 2 calls a week from people with IMS failure not good rearly but I do get to see the other end of the spectrum. What I meen by this is we get 100 calls a week from people with all sorts of cars and none are free from there problems.BMW Diesels crankcase breathers destroying the engines. Shoguns dropping front and intermediate mains cap resulting in broken oil pump and Engine block. Nissan Navara splitting con rods in half from the oil hole feeding the piston thrust. and so on.
The answer is buy the car you want(PORSCHE) and when it goes wrong repair it. they all go wrong and they are all exspensive. Live with the rear main seal problem because they never seem to drip. They make the case damp after a period of time. Get it cleaned at service intervals and live with it and enjoy your car.
Sorry for going away from actual topic but just wanted to air the issues I have had and my thoughts.
I have read this Forum with intrest and would like first to say that what Hartech are doing should be supported. I know the costs and time involved in removing,stripping and assembling these engines and it adds up to a tidy sum each time. I wish them well in reclaiming there money once a remedy is found. KEEP IT UP GUYS
My own thoughts and experiences are my 10,000 mile GT3 has already had RMS (rear main seal) changed. My buddy has had 3 RMS on a GT3 but he tracks it 6500 miles.
My Boxster s with 53k genuine miles FPSH has just suffered IMS failure (intermediate shaft failure) Luckily I still build Engines for a living so not too mad for me. But still £3k for all the bits and lots of labour.
I am getting around 2 calls a week from people with IMS failure not good rearly but I do get to see the other end of the spectrum. What I meen by this is we get 100 calls a week from people with all sorts of cars and none are free from there problems.BMW Diesels crankcase breathers destroying the engines. Shoguns dropping front and intermediate mains cap resulting in broken oil pump and Engine block. Nissan Navara splitting con rods in half from the oil hole feeding the piston thrust. and so on.
The answer is buy the car you want(PORSCHE) and when it goes wrong repair it. they all go wrong and they are all exspensive. Live with the rear main seal problem because they never seem to drip. They make the case damp after a period of time. Get it cleaned at service intervals and live with it and enjoy your car.
Sorry for going away from actual topic but just wanted to air the issues I have had and my thoughts.
hartech said:
Now it sounds far less serious to inform a customer "sorry you have some scoring in your bores" - than "you have a seized piston or two". one explanation can be put down to some minor occurence whereas the other suggests a design or manufacturing fault if repeated elsewhere.
andhartech said:
The type of damage to one face of the piston is deep and rough and only comes about when it is forced against the cylinder face too much for the lubricant to support. Usually this type of damage would be on both faces and although it is on one face it is worse than just a "pick up" but I suppose you could call it that if you wanted to.
Baz
I hope you don't mind my pedantics, but I think that "scoring in the bores" is a better and more accurate decription than "you have a seized piston or two". Clearly in the cases you are talking about the pistons are not siezed. I disagree with the logic employed. If the discovery of a "design or manufacturing fault" is predicated on the symptoms being "seized", you are relying on those semantics to strengthen your argument about the cause of the fault.Baz
Bert
Edited by BertBert on Sunday 10th October 10:37
nelly997s said:
well
if its nickosil/lokosil/ koalasil and its seized,scored or the ims bearing has gone due to too thin oil or whatever the cause
its basically premature and the sooner we all pipe up and agree the better.
lets get a common denominator here
should this be happening?
Give me a 997 over a Ferrari any day. Don't ask me how I know - too painful (and expensive). if its nickosil/lokosil/ koalasil and its seized,scored or the ims bearing has gone due to too thin oil or whatever the cause
its basically premature and the sooner we all pipe up and agree the better.
lets get a common denominator here
should this be happening?
Diesel130 said:
Type 49 said:
...up until Wednesday I was about to purchase eithe a GT3 or a 997 C2, and have put that purchase on hold until I can quantify the problem....
The good news is that GT3 (& Turbo) engines do not suffer the same issues as they are based on a different engine block.Any way you make a good point, but my eyes have been opened.
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