TVR, Reliability, Speed Six - My parting shot.
Discussion
Before I start I would like to point out that this is not a ‘Speed Six Bashing’ thread. I would like to think that something more positive would come out of this. About a week ago one of the threads I commented on advocated the position that such discussion of the Speed Six engine and its reliability was needless and was damaging TVR’s reputation and new buyers residuals. Whilst I understood the position, I could not agree with this due to the fact that I believe everyone should have the right to a balanced opinion on a product they are thinking of purchasing.
This week I regrettably (for financial reasons) had to sell my X reg Tuscan for nearly £4000 less than relative cars were advertised for on Autotrader. I spoke to a number of interested buyers (only after I had greatly reduced the asking price) I realised that to a certain degree all had done their research as you would expect. Everyone without fail asked whether the engine had been rebuilt. Mine had not as at 26k on the clock and it had never needed it.
It seems cackhanded to say the least that in the secondhand market, buyers are actually going out of their way to look for cars who have had such serious problems that they had to be returned to the factory! This made me start thinking about why people may be turned away from buying a TVR, and what could be done about it. For what I sold my dream car for, you couldn’t get a new Eurobox. I would say that if people are worried about the residuals for nearly new speed sixed cars, spare a thought for those who are even more affected in the ‘older’ speed six selling market.
Although this has also been talked about, I really believe that the new 3 year/36000 mile warranty is a great way forward for the marque. I just wonder about the thinking behind the way forward. Is it:
1) We have done a load more serious testing on the Speed Six, to three figure mileages, fixed any ‘possible inherent faults’ and this is all round a better engine.
2) We now have a load of data from the rebuilds we have done already and other reliability issues and over the last 5 years have developed the engine to a standard where a 3 year warranty can be applied.
3) If we don’t do something about the perceived unreliability of TVR’s sales will disappoint, and the company will be unprofitable. Worry about the consequences IF they happen.
I do hope that it is the first position above, but as a balanced view I believe it may be a mix of all three. As to the actual reliability of later speed six and post NS cars, I still believe is yet to be seen. JSG and others have correctly pointed out that until a good majority of the 2003 and onward car start getting to a decent mileage without needing major work, the ‘jury’ will still be out. Unfortunately, from the very informative ‘A year in the life of a Tuscan MKII’ author, it would seem like the annoying niggles still remain, and to further disappointment such niggles have been highlighted on 5th Gear.
For everyone buying their TVR, they are buying into a dream. I know I did. I loved my car. But, for me and I lot of other people they do not have an unlimited supply of cash, and even of they are they may not have a limitless supply of patience.
I understand the constraints of developing an engine, but what I also understand from running a customer orientated business it that if your customers fail to believe in you, they will look for someone else. There is no need to rehash the legal issue surrounding the ‘inherent fault’ liability. From my understanding of the law, JSG and others are correct. From a legal point of view (if not a customer service one) any car needing serious work like a rebuild at a premature mileage should be done at the manufacturers expense. I am also sure that if ten or twenty (or more) people had the time and money to get a class action case together, they would win albeit at TVR’s financial expense. This is where the crux of the ‘reliabilty and trust’ issue lies. Enthusiasts such as us do not mind spending time on their cars, but they should not have to spend thousands upon thousands of pounds on a product which fails, and they shouldn’t have to consider taking the manufacturer to court to fix such problems.
What makes me frustrated is there IS another way. After all, how many people who are considering buying a second hand Tuscan be worried about engine rebuilds if the worst did come to the worst, it would be completed at no cost to the customer? Also, if buyers were considering purchasing a new TVR, how this message would affect their decision about whether they could expect long term support for their car?
What I also do not understand is the ‘at cost’ and ‘goodwill’ rebuilds the factory used to offer. It does sound like you should be thankful that you did not have to cover the full cost of fixing such premature faults!
After all, how much does it actually cost to do a rebuild? I know the following figures may be completely wrong, however I would welcome any more accurate ones to be disucussed. Does the cost of the rebuild mean labour charges at dealer rates (£55ph) plus the retail cost of the parts to the dealer?
I understand that the majority of the rebuild cost is labour, and the parts that are needed are actually made by TVR. If TVR bought in a new engineer (or three) just to complete rebuilds, the labour cost based on the assumption that the engineer would be paid £25kpa and each rebuild would takes a week would mean the cost would be approximately £400. The actual cost of the parts is maybe £200? The cut in waiting times for rebuilds only adds insult to injury, and this should also be addressed.
I realise that my figure may be completely wrong and I would welcome any more accurate ones. My point is is that the ‘actual cost’ of the rebuild could be covered by the factory, if they wanted to. Sure, it would cost them, maybe if they did 300 a year, it would cost £300,000. This sounds a lot. However in the scheme of things if TVR looked at each free rebuild as a customer saved and the bad publicity of them telling all their friends why their pride and joy is lost for the summer I am sure it would pay itself back. After all does anyone remember any threads started by potential TVR buyers which began ‘Which year did the Speed Six engine become reliable’ or ‘I want to buy a Tuscan, how much does a rebuild cost’!? I have lost count. If each one of those equated to a possible buyer, the £300,000 spent on supporting loyal customers would be paid back many times over.
It takes a long time to build up a reputation for a brand. Unfortunately, the ‘pub chat’ one sentence description of TVRs is one which always comes down to ‘great car (if it gets you there…)’. I am sure that this affects potential buyers, and I’m sure that there have been many Speed Six buyers who have been ‘burned’ who will never return to the marque.
Trusting a product or brand goes further than offering a warranty. From my experience in business, the trust people gain in you is how things are dealt with when things go wrong. Indeed, conversely I would say that when for whatever reason our work was not up to standard, and we have put things right, these people were more likely to become return customers, that where no problems had occurred at all!
The rebuild issue just highlights the opposite. It shows current and potential customers that along with the perceived sense of unreliability, when things do go wrong, if it is a day outside TVR’s warranty they are in for an expensive surprise when they receive a two fingered salute from one hand of the factory and an outstretched hand from the other. We now have a situation where in the same week TVR ships a new breed of Sagaris and Tuscan II’s based with the Speed Six engine, they are taking £3000+ from customers with two year old cars to fix and modify them to a standard of reliability. Worse than this, the same amount is also taken from those loyal customers who had their deposits down for year 2000 Tuscans, and if these people were unlucky it is not the first time they have come back for fixes and modifications.
TVR need not admit all its production faults. It just needs to address them in a way which supports their customers. For example, how many people would be scared of having a rebuild if:
1) The factory would telephone or write to apologise and send a low-loader to pick the car up.
2) The rebuild was done at no cost.
3) The option of having your car serviced at the same time was completed at actual cost price.
4) The option of having your engine uprated to Red Rose/S spec at actual cost price.
If this was offered and completed as promised, I wonder how many of these people would then have serious reservations about buying another TVR!?
I welcome any discussion about this. As I have mentioned, this is not a speed six/TVR bashing thread. It is my view of a way forward which would instill trust in me, and the people who were interested in buying my car, in trusting TVR and building the brand. There is also no reason to tell me that my financial figures concerning a rebuild may be rubbish. They might be. It is the concept I am hoping to advocate and I would love some more accurate figures to be inserted for a better discussion. There is also no need to say ‘my Tuscan is great and it never needed a rebuild’, neither did mine but as I have explained the situation affects us all
Lastly I would hope that if perhaps that if this thread is read by someone at TVR somewhere, enough knowledge and knowhow from Pistonheads users could be inputted to perhaps make a difference.
Just a hope.
This week I regrettably (for financial reasons) had to sell my X reg Tuscan for nearly £4000 less than relative cars were advertised for on Autotrader. I spoke to a number of interested buyers (only after I had greatly reduced the asking price) I realised that to a certain degree all had done their research as you would expect. Everyone without fail asked whether the engine had been rebuilt. Mine had not as at 26k on the clock and it had never needed it.
It seems cackhanded to say the least that in the secondhand market, buyers are actually going out of their way to look for cars who have had such serious problems that they had to be returned to the factory! This made me start thinking about why people may be turned away from buying a TVR, and what could be done about it. For what I sold my dream car for, you couldn’t get a new Eurobox. I would say that if people are worried about the residuals for nearly new speed sixed cars, spare a thought for those who are even more affected in the ‘older’ speed six selling market.
Although this has also been talked about, I really believe that the new 3 year/36000 mile warranty is a great way forward for the marque. I just wonder about the thinking behind the way forward. Is it:
1) We have done a load more serious testing on the Speed Six, to three figure mileages, fixed any ‘possible inherent faults’ and this is all round a better engine.
2) We now have a load of data from the rebuilds we have done already and other reliability issues and over the last 5 years have developed the engine to a standard where a 3 year warranty can be applied.
3) If we don’t do something about the perceived unreliability of TVR’s sales will disappoint, and the company will be unprofitable. Worry about the consequences IF they happen.
I do hope that it is the first position above, but as a balanced view I believe it may be a mix of all three. As to the actual reliability of later speed six and post NS cars, I still believe is yet to be seen. JSG and others have correctly pointed out that until a good majority of the 2003 and onward car start getting to a decent mileage without needing major work, the ‘jury’ will still be out. Unfortunately, from the very informative ‘A year in the life of a Tuscan MKII’ author, it would seem like the annoying niggles still remain, and to further disappointment such niggles have been highlighted on 5th Gear.
For everyone buying their TVR, they are buying into a dream. I know I did. I loved my car. But, for me and I lot of other people they do not have an unlimited supply of cash, and even of they are they may not have a limitless supply of patience.
I understand the constraints of developing an engine, but what I also understand from running a customer orientated business it that if your customers fail to believe in you, they will look for someone else. There is no need to rehash the legal issue surrounding the ‘inherent fault’ liability. From my understanding of the law, JSG and others are correct. From a legal point of view (if not a customer service one) any car needing serious work like a rebuild at a premature mileage should be done at the manufacturers expense. I am also sure that if ten or twenty (or more) people had the time and money to get a class action case together, they would win albeit at TVR’s financial expense. This is where the crux of the ‘reliabilty and trust’ issue lies. Enthusiasts such as us do not mind spending time on their cars, but they should not have to spend thousands upon thousands of pounds on a product which fails, and they shouldn’t have to consider taking the manufacturer to court to fix such problems.
What makes me frustrated is there IS another way. After all, how many people who are considering buying a second hand Tuscan be worried about engine rebuilds if the worst did come to the worst, it would be completed at no cost to the customer? Also, if buyers were considering purchasing a new TVR, how this message would affect their decision about whether they could expect long term support for their car?
What I also do not understand is the ‘at cost’ and ‘goodwill’ rebuilds the factory used to offer. It does sound like you should be thankful that you did not have to cover the full cost of fixing such premature faults!
After all, how much does it actually cost to do a rebuild? I know the following figures may be completely wrong, however I would welcome any more accurate ones to be disucussed. Does the cost of the rebuild mean labour charges at dealer rates (£55ph) plus the retail cost of the parts to the dealer?
I understand that the majority of the rebuild cost is labour, and the parts that are needed are actually made by TVR. If TVR bought in a new engineer (or three) just to complete rebuilds, the labour cost based on the assumption that the engineer would be paid £25kpa and each rebuild would takes a week would mean the cost would be approximately £400. The actual cost of the parts is maybe £200? The cut in waiting times for rebuilds only adds insult to injury, and this should also be addressed.
I realise that my figure may be completely wrong and I would welcome any more accurate ones. My point is is that the ‘actual cost’ of the rebuild could be covered by the factory, if they wanted to. Sure, it would cost them, maybe if they did 300 a year, it would cost £300,000. This sounds a lot. However in the scheme of things if TVR looked at each free rebuild as a customer saved and the bad publicity of them telling all their friends why their pride and joy is lost for the summer I am sure it would pay itself back. After all does anyone remember any threads started by potential TVR buyers which began ‘Which year did the Speed Six engine become reliable’ or ‘I want to buy a Tuscan, how much does a rebuild cost’!? I have lost count. If each one of those equated to a possible buyer, the £300,000 spent on supporting loyal customers would be paid back many times over.
It takes a long time to build up a reputation for a brand. Unfortunately, the ‘pub chat’ one sentence description of TVRs is one which always comes down to ‘great car (if it gets you there…)’. I am sure that this affects potential buyers, and I’m sure that there have been many Speed Six buyers who have been ‘burned’ who will never return to the marque.
Trusting a product or brand goes further than offering a warranty. From my experience in business, the trust people gain in you is how things are dealt with when things go wrong. Indeed, conversely I would say that when for whatever reason our work was not up to standard, and we have put things right, these people were more likely to become return customers, that where no problems had occurred at all!
The rebuild issue just highlights the opposite. It shows current and potential customers that along with the perceived sense of unreliability, when things do go wrong, if it is a day outside TVR’s warranty they are in for an expensive surprise when they receive a two fingered salute from one hand of the factory and an outstretched hand from the other. We now have a situation where in the same week TVR ships a new breed of Sagaris and Tuscan II’s based with the Speed Six engine, they are taking £3000+ from customers with two year old cars to fix and modify them to a standard of reliability. Worse than this, the same amount is also taken from those loyal customers who had their deposits down for year 2000 Tuscans, and if these people were unlucky it is not the first time they have come back for fixes and modifications.
TVR need not admit all its production faults. It just needs to address them in a way which supports their customers. For example, how many people would be scared of having a rebuild if:
1) The factory would telephone or write to apologise and send a low-loader to pick the car up.
2) The rebuild was done at no cost.
3) The option of having your car serviced at the same time was completed at actual cost price.
4) The option of having your engine uprated to Red Rose/S spec at actual cost price.
If this was offered and completed as promised, I wonder how many of these people would then have serious reservations about buying another TVR!?
I welcome any discussion about this. As I have mentioned, this is not a speed six/TVR bashing thread. It is my view of a way forward which would instill trust in me, and the people who were interested in buying my car, in trusting TVR and building the brand. There is also no reason to tell me that my financial figures concerning a rebuild may be rubbish. They might be. It is the concept I am hoping to advocate and I would love some more accurate figures to be inserted for a better discussion. There is also no need to say ‘my Tuscan is great and it never needed a rebuild’, neither did mine but as I have explained the situation affects us all
Lastly I would hope that if perhaps that if this thread is read by someone at TVR somewhere, enough knowledge and knowhow from Pistonheads users could be inputted to perhaps make a difference.
Just a hope.
I agree it's a crap situation that you are 'unfortunate' enough not to have needed an engine rebuild.
Still, if your car is a 2000 model then I assume it cost between 38 and 40k new. Assuming you sold the car for 17-18k after taking 4k off that is still not bad residuals. Not quite as good as a Porkster, but just think if you'd spent 50+k on an M5, that would have returned less pocket money.
Many people think the problems are sorted now. I think the jury is still out. Certainly, looking at PH there seem to be less people reporting major engine problems in the past 6-9 months than in the past. I suspect there will still be a carpark of cars waiting for rebuild at the factory though ... question is what age are these?
Time will tell ...
Still, if your car is a 2000 model then I assume it cost between 38 and 40k new. Assuming you sold the car for 17-18k after taking 4k off that is still not bad residuals. Not quite as good as a Porkster, but just think if you'd spent 50+k on an M5, that would have returned less pocket money.
Many people think the problems are sorted now. I think the jury is still out. Certainly, looking at PH there seem to be less people reporting major engine problems in the past 6-9 months than in the past. I suspect there will still be a carpark of cars waiting for rebuild at the factory though ... question is what age are these?
Time will tell ...
Some very valid points you put forward JustinP. At the beginning of the year I bought a 2003 car with less than 4K on the clock and at the same time put away 3500 in a savings account as a just incase measure. I have recently used 2.2K of that getting a new bonnet fitted and a service. Bonnet was due to a previous owners repair bodge (but a very good paint job to hide it).
I would like to ask:
What was the real reason Peter Wheeler sold out....I read it was because he did not have the revenue to take TVR where his dreams lay. Or, (THIS IS PURELY SPECULATION) did it have more to do with the Speed 6 problems. Were/are TVR existing on borrowed time having invested so much in the Speed 6 design, all of their cars are now based around it. The factories finances under Peter Wheeler may not have had the revenue to perfect the Speed 6 where as Smolenski aparently does have such potential resources. Where/are the 2000 onwards Speed 6 owners more or less used as guinea pigs to support the engines develpment, or has it just happened that way?!?
By virtue of the fact that the factory have chosen not to come out of the closet over the Speed 6 engine issues. I propose the latter above is perhaps more the accurate.
At the end of the day as customers we have the choice to stay with them and run the guantlet or take our money elsewhere........but lets face it after having experienced the thrills of a fully working TVR, for the same cost, anywhere else is bland to say the least.
My plan is this: If my motor goes pop I will get it fixed and sell it on as that. I will then do what I suspect JSG is up to.....Save for the AM Vantage.
I would like to ask:
What was the real reason Peter Wheeler sold out....I read it was because he did not have the revenue to take TVR where his dreams lay. Or, (THIS IS PURELY SPECULATION) did it have more to do with the Speed 6 problems. Were/are TVR existing on borrowed time having invested so much in the Speed 6 design, all of their cars are now based around it. The factories finances under Peter Wheeler may not have had the revenue to perfect the Speed 6 where as Smolenski aparently does have such potential resources. Where/are the 2000 onwards Speed 6 owners more or less used as guinea pigs to support the engines develpment, or has it just happened that way?!?
By virtue of the fact that the factory have chosen not to come out of the closet over the Speed 6 engine issues. I propose the latter above is perhaps more the accurate.
At the end of the day as customers we have the choice to stay with them and run the guantlet or take our money elsewhere........but lets face it after having experienced the thrills of a fully working TVR, for the same cost, anywhere else is bland to say the least.
My plan is this: If my motor goes pop I will get it fixed and sell it on as that. I will then do what I suspect JSG is up to.....Save for the AM Vantage.
A very fair and balanced summary I think. The 3 year warranty isn't enough to tempt me back, I need to see more openness and faster turnarounds on rebuilds too.
One aside: I think your labour estimates of £400 are too low. The cost of employing someone would typically be 2.5x their salary so someone on £25k doing 48 rebuilds a year would give you around £1300 per rebuild.
One aside: I think your labour estimates of £400 are too low. The cost of employing someone would typically be 2.5x their salary so someone on £25k doing 48 rebuilds a year would give you around £1300 per rebuild.
I've had my Tuscan for 12 months now, a 2001 3.5k miles hardly used car. I knew about the engine problems but still bought the car with the knowledge that I could afford to get it fixed when and if it went pop. I had a warranty as well which I thought would help.
Needless to say the engine went at under 7k miles which in real terms is diabolical. I had a 'goodwill' fix which cost a lost of money just before Christmas. I have to believe that the car will be fine now. I was fortunate enough to be on an income that meant a few £k did not matter.
However, I have not earned any money for most of this year and as a result my circumstances have changed. I now look at the 'real' cost of owning this car and the risks associated with it. I have to agree that TVR need desperately to resolve the issue and boost confidence in the SP6. Why would anyone pay 50k for a car that they expect will break down at some point and require major work and weeks off the road to resolve?
The argument that you cannot get the performance for the money else where is true but not really justifiable. I’m concerned about residuals but do not think that they are bad with TVR’s I had a Merc CLK430 before and that lost a fortune.
I for one will continue to drive my car and enjoy it. If the engine fails again then I will expect that it will be fixed free of charge by TVR, and in a reasonable timescale of a couple of weeks. Even if the ’12 month’ engine warranty has expired I do not expect to pay for an engine repair for the foreseeable future.
TVR need to take note of what its existing customers are saying……. ‘Enough is enough! Treat your customer properly or loose them!’.
Needless to say the engine went at under 7k miles which in real terms is diabolical. I had a 'goodwill' fix which cost a lost of money just before Christmas. I have to believe that the car will be fine now. I was fortunate enough to be on an income that meant a few £k did not matter.
However, I have not earned any money for most of this year and as a result my circumstances have changed. I now look at the 'real' cost of owning this car and the risks associated with it. I have to agree that TVR need desperately to resolve the issue and boost confidence in the SP6. Why would anyone pay 50k for a car that they expect will break down at some point and require major work and weeks off the road to resolve?
The argument that you cannot get the performance for the money else where is true but not really justifiable. I’m concerned about residuals but do not think that they are bad with TVR’s I had a Merc CLK430 before and that lost a fortune.
I for one will continue to drive my car and enjoy it. If the engine fails again then I will expect that it will be fixed free of charge by TVR, and in a reasonable timescale of a couple of weeks. Even if the ’12 month’ engine warranty has expired I do not expect to pay for an engine repair for the foreseeable future.
TVR need to take note of what its existing customers are saying……. ‘Enough is enough! Treat your customer properly or loose them!’.
dvpeace said:
Why would anyone pay 50k for a car that they expect will break down at some point and require major work and weeks off the road to resolve?
Not trying to defend the S6, the factory or anyone else, and it maybe unfair to take out of context however,
I dont know anyone who would do this - do you?
daftlad,
I think you just hit the nail on the head! The point is no-one who expects that if they bought a new TVR it would have serious problems WOULD buy one...
The problem is how many of these people are people who have had their first Speed Six on holiday to Blackpool at their expense, or new customers who have read reports or hearsay of disgruntled ones. Or even if they have watched 5th Gear... This would have a serious effect on these people buying a new TVR.
It is all down to how serious the problem or risk is perceived by potential buyers. How the problem or risk is perceived is how it is dealt with by the manufacturer and the dealers. How many Tuscans MK 1's will get to 30,000 miles on their original clutch, suspension and without a rebuild? And for the ones that are not, how much of this was paid for by the customer? Also even IF such a Tuscan exists without any of these three problems having to be repaired/modified (I would love to know if one exists), any potential private buyer or dealer who has done any kind of homework will know the potential failure rates, and would need quite a big slush fund put aside, and thus the resale value for the loyal new buyer is still depreciated.
>> Edited by justinp1 on Monday 25th April 13:27
I think you just hit the nail on the head! The point is no-one who expects that if they bought a new TVR it would have serious problems WOULD buy one...
The problem is how many of these people are people who have had their first Speed Six on holiday to Blackpool at their expense, or new customers who have read reports or hearsay of disgruntled ones. Or even if they have watched 5th Gear... This would have a serious effect on these people buying a new TVR.
It is all down to how serious the problem or risk is perceived by potential buyers. How the problem or risk is perceived is how it is dealt with by the manufacturer and the dealers. How many Tuscans MK 1's will get to 30,000 miles on their original clutch, suspension and without a rebuild? And for the ones that are not, how much of this was paid for by the customer? Also even IF such a Tuscan exists without any of these three problems having to be repaired/modified (I would love to know if one exists), any potential private buyer or dealer who has done any kind of homework will know the potential failure rates, and would need quite a big slush fund put aside, and thus the resale value for the loyal new buyer is still depreciated.
>> Edited by justinp1 on Monday 25th April 13:27
justinp1 said:
How many Tuscans MK 1's will get to 30,000 miles on their original clutch, suspension and without a rebuild? .
Mine had done 33,000 miles when I sold it with completely original suspension and clutch, having had absolutely no suspension or clutch problems. It did have some engine work though…
TSS said:
How many Tuscans MK 1's will get to 30,000 miles on their original clutch, suspension and without a rebuild? .
Mine had done 33,000 miles when I sold it with completely original suspension and clutch, having had absolutely no suspension or clutch problems. It did have some engine work though…
For a second I thought I would have to take back what I said!
It does say something however when Tuscan owners should think themselves reasonably lucky when they have 'only' have to spend a large chunk of money getting their engine rebuilt at 30,000 miles...
It's the u-turn in attitude by the factory that I can't believe. My car needed two rebuilds early on, before I bought it. The first was done free. The second, about 3k miles later, was not only done free, but a new clutch was fitted at a big discount to compensate for the inconvenience.
I think a move back to this kind of service would be a wise, if slightly costly, move.
I think a move back to this kind of service would be a wise, if slightly costly, move.
I dont think we will ever know what changes are/were/ if at all made, and to be honest, I dont care, if it was the oil channels made bigger in the head, or the valve seats changed becuase of valve stretch, or too soft metal being used for followers and cams, or that pot 6 at the back of the engine overheats as not enought air gets to the back of the block due to the engine fans just circulaing air around the front of the engine rather than pushing to the back of the bay ( I think thats all the issues I know of).
Many people dont care to know what the problems are, they just want a car to drive, and for it to be reliable.
The problem is, many people just forget how small TVR really are, they are tiny, 1000 or so cars a year.
But, that said I agree, if the engine goes wrong fix it for free.
Many people dont care to know what the problems are, they just want a car to drive, and for it to be reliable.
The problem is, many people just forget how small TVR really are, they are tiny, 1000 or so cars a year.
But, that said I agree, if the engine goes wrong fix it for free.
Lots of good stuff here. Good post justin, very well considered.
Although I am a big supporter of TVR and of the Speed6 I have always said that their PR on this issue in particular is lamentable. I do however believe that that is starting to change (dont let me down here Phil!!!) and that communications are starting to improve. I also believe that the new warranty is a clear and effective signal to all of us that the factory do believe completely in the product.
On the residual side, I think it depends on how you sell your car. I traded my Jan 2003 15k Tuscan against my new one. I got £30k, which I was more than happy with. My dealer put it on the forecourt at £32995 and sold it in a week, for I suspect somewhere betwqeen 31k and 32k. That's pretty impressive residuals IMO. I personally would not buy a TVR privately, and would expect anyone who does so to buy it at a considerable discount to the market. Again, just my opinion.
I do also believe that customers with engine problems on S6 cars should not be paying for rebuilds assuming that the car has been looked after. I add that caveat because I was told by a mechanic at my dealers last week that they have had Tuscans coming in where they have had to force the front service bonnet open because the catches have rusted in place! Think about it.
The build quality of the new NS cars is much improved. Sure we still have snagging lists at the first service but they are all minor niggles, not big problems. I've had much worse with new Range Rovers and Jags.
Although I am a big supporter of TVR and of the Speed6 I have always said that their PR on this issue in particular is lamentable. I do however believe that that is starting to change (dont let me down here Phil!!!) and that communications are starting to improve. I also believe that the new warranty is a clear and effective signal to all of us that the factory do believe completely in the product.
On the residual side, I think it depends on how you sell your car. I traded my Jan 2003 15k Tuscan against my new one. I got £30k, which I was more than happy with. My dealer put it on the forecourt at £32995 and sold it in a week, for I suspect somewhere betwqeen 31k and 32k. That's pretty impressive residuals IMO. I personally would not buy a TVR privately, and would expect anyone who does so to buy it at a considerable discount to the market. Again, just my opinion.
I do also believe that customers with engine problems on S6 cars should not be paying for rebuilds assuming that the car has been looked after. I add that caveat because I was told by a mechanic at my dealers last week that they have had Tuscans coming in where they have had to force the front service bonnet open because the catches have rusted in place! Think about it.
The build quality of the new NS cars is much improved. Sure we still have snagging lists at the first service but they are all minor niggles, not big problems. I've had much worse with new Range Rovers and Jags.
unrepentant said:
The build quality of the new NS cars is much improved.
I looked at a brand new 350C the other day and was hugely impressed by the fit and finish compared to an older one also in the showroom. All the panels fitted perfectly on the new one, the old one had a windscreen pillar about 1cm out of place and bodged up with a load of mastic.
This is great but doesn't necessarily have any bearing on mechanical reliability, we won't truly know whether this has improved for many months yet.
thanuk said:
This is great but doesn't necessarily have any bearing on mechanical reliability, we won't truly know whether this has improved for many months yet.
Except there are lots of us who have been through the S6 experience without any engine problems at all and have moved on to second or third S6 cars....................
hilti said:
Justin,
£300,000 a year for rebuilds insn't alot when you consider it sonly 6 new cars sold at £50k each?
If they consolidated their reputation for quality, then they'd sell more then 6 cars and recover their investment?
Hilti.
Yeah, I think we are coming from the same thinking. My point is the in the scheme of things that £300,000 is insignificant. Just that may improve confidence with customers and the public to sell hundreds a year more. The perceived lack of build quality comes down to little things. How long would it have taken to check, check and pull and push the knobs on the press cars sent to 5th Gear so that they wouldnt fall off on camera.
There will be a situation in three years time where second hand Aston Martin AMV8's (or whatever the thing is called) who's second hand value will be around £50k. The thing is stunning. My guess it will handle very well due to the investment involved, and the engine will be built on the already working Aston engines. It will also have Aston Martin build quality.
TVR will always have people who love them (including me) but not at any cost. If there was another British manufacturer doing everything that TVR does well, but builds their cars better, has better reliability, with a trusted brand, and most importantly looks after its customers/investors better TVR will find it hard to say the least.
If they did something about it now, whaever is needed to restore (or build) confidence, in three years time when the warranties run out on Sagarises and the new breed of Speed Sixes are out, the reputation of the way customers are treated now will have just started to trickle down to making a difference then.
Whilst rebuilds are still being paid for by customers with well looked after engines, at low milages, does this instill confidence in what happens to new car customers when their warranty runs out?
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