Starting Problems
Discussion
I know this starting thing has been covered elsewhere, but seems hard to find via search tool. So here's a fresh look at the problem.
Recently bought a 2002 Tuscan Mk1. Nice ! Except the shame of not being able to start it when hot. Starter motor seems just not to be up to the job. Only just manages to crank when cold, and when hot manages about a 1/4 turn and then just stops. Playing with throttle sometimes works but hate doing it because of oil pressure worries and revving when cold.
Found from Basil Brush's post in 2007 that original starter is a Bosch 0 001 108 063, and traced this back to a BMW 316i. Seems a bit of poor match IMO given 4L and 11.1:1 compression ratio on 6 cyl.
So decided to try and upgrade the starter to something more substantial.
After lots of browsing the web and a trip to my local care spares shop, found a candidate...namely a Bosch 0 001 110 041. Exact same fixings, pinion, throw and connections, about 21mm longer and a little bigger in overal diameter, but otherwise darned near identical. Old unit is 1.4KW power, this one is 1.7KW. It was original equip on BMW M5 E34 model.
Ordered one from Ebay (put that new Bosch number in!) for about £85 delivered. Some bracket mods needed BTW so do this only if you're up for a challenge !
Fitting it comprised these steps
1. Have to remove the air box and brackets first. Not difficult but a tight fit under the bulk head and watch for the clip that's up the inside of the top-box...arms length almost ! Unbolt the vertical arm that they used to hold the airbox lower housing in place (simple stainless bracket bolted onto a bracket off the starter motor). There are some pipes and a connector too...remember these
2. Starter is pushed well up into the bulkhead on driver side...visible with upper and lower air boxes out of the way
3. Quite a few connectors etc to remove from harms way but they all seem to be keyed and labelled so no big deals here. Thinks like distributor etc. Loop them well away and remember each one. Make sure any that could get pinched or damaged during removal are clear of the working area
4. I advise disconnecting the battery BTW. I didn't so went to great extremes to make sure the main battery feed on the starter never got shorted to GND ! Really BE CAREFUL in the next steps if you're as daft as me (and you're on your own by the way...you have been warned)
5. Disconnected the alternator and main battery feeds on the solenoid and safely elastic band them inside thick plastic bags to stop them touching anything (and watch out too when undoing bolts of course...the spanner gets very close to engine block and other "stuff"). The alternator one also needs the inline fuse unbolting too to release from the starter bracket
6. Remove the solenoid energise feed (thin wire) and cover that too (just in case!) and loop out the way
7. Remove the clutch remote bleed thingy (at least, think that's what it is...steel armoured pipe and gland bolted to bracket on back of starter). The lock bolts are *really* tight...mind your knuckles !
8. Now, you can unbolt the starter. It needs some fairly sturdy HEX head 1/2 or 3/8 ths drive (8mm hex) to get the 2 bolts undone and some extension bars that are just the right length to get enough leverage. I also treated the heads overnight with a quick squirt of WD40 to help them on their way
9. Remove the starter (care not to drop it ! and dont smash it into the distributor casing)
10. Remove the bracket from the back of the starter once you've got it on the bench
11. Now for the mods.
12. I slotted the holes in the bracket slightly to allow it to line up with the 2 main starter bolts on the new unit. On the old unit there are M4(?) studs, but on the new one you're going to have to make do with the bolts that run through the starter body (sorry!).
13. Undo the 2 starter bolts (on the new unit of course) and withdraw (they're about 25cm long). Check the bracket fits OK onto these mounting centres. I used some M5 bolts to act as spacers to just move the bracket off the lumpy back plate of the starter, this seemed to work OK.
14. I also re-did the mounting holes for the inline fuse holder, placing them just off to the side of the old ones on a bit of an angle and threading them to M5 and them making some nice M5 cap head bolts cut to just the right length so I can re-attach the holder body without the the bolts fouling the starter (I'm sure you could do this another way to be honest).
15. I also used some steel tube (2 pieces) at about 23mm long, I.D. around 6mm, to act as spacers so that I could re-fit the air box arm "spaced back" to its oringal position (the new starter is about 21mm longer + a bit for the bracket position difference). When you get to this stage you need 2 off longer M5(?) bolts, around 35mm ish to reach through these spacers.
16. With the new fuse holder mountings done, fit the bracket to the back of the starter and tighten up (not too much ! the starter body near the pinion is alloy...so I used some threadlock and moderate tightness)
17. Fit the new starter. It goes in pretty easily. Suggest you keep the little P-clip thing that holds the braided bleed pipe...TVR must have done this for a reason...it fits behind the top starter bolt
18. Tighten the 2 bolts progressively, final torque should be 30 ft lbs
19. Fit the electrical connections...starter energise, then the battery feed + alternator. Again, watch for accidental short circuit to GND (my advice...disconnect the battery !)
20. Fit the inline fuse holder to the starter bracket
21. Refit the clutch bleed thingy...its a rather tight fit...shame. So I ended up packing it out with a spacer to move it back 10-15mm overall. You'll see what I mean
22. Fit the airbox arm on its spacers to the starter bracket (suggest you use some lock washers or something).
23. Refit any connectors you took off from around the distributor etc
24. Refit the lower air box, possibly using a little good-old bendology to get the brackets in the right place. Be sure to mount the outer-end of the lower air box fairly high up on its adjuster to make sure the top air box seats nicely
25. Refit the upper airbox and reconnect any connectors/pipes to it, and check that when the clips are latched that the upper and lower covers seat nicely together (dont forget the air filter)
26. Reconnect the battery ;-)
27. Let it rip ! Mine went first turn of the key with no throttle input at all
28. Suggest you do one last sanity check that you've reconnected and tightened everything before putting back the bonnet
So far, i've found the starting performance to be massively improved, even when piping hot. I'm sure a brand new old-style starter would have improved matters but its my belief that as the brushes wear out, the solenoid contacts degrade and heat soak causes the starter efficiency to drop, that the the old unit was never really up to the job. At least the new one has 25% extra umph! So here's hoping...
If you follow these steps, I should stress that you're on your own...no warranty from me that you'll get success or that you won't hit snags...blah blah blah
But have fun and happy starting.
Recently bought a 2002 Tuscan Mk1. Nice ! Except the shame of not being able to start it when hot. Starter motor seems just not to be up to the job. Only just manages to crank when cold, and when hot manages about a 1/4 turn and then just stops. Playing with throttle sometimes works but hate doing it because of oil pressure worries and revving when cold.
Found from Basil Brush's post in 2007 that original starter is a Bosch 0 001 108 063, and traced this back to a BMW 316i. Seems a bit of poor match IMO given 4L and 11.1:1 compression ratio on 6 cyl.
So decided to try and upgrade the starter to something more substantial.
After lots of browsing the web and a trip to my local care spares shop, found a candidate...namely a Bosch 0 001 110 041. Exact same fixings, pinion, throw and connections, about 21mm longer and a little bigger in overal diameter, but otherwise darned near identical. Old unit is 1.4KW power, this one is 1.7KW. It was original equip on BMW M5 E34 model.
Ordered one from Ebay (put that new Bosch number in!) for about £85 delivered. Some bracket mods needed BTW so do this only if you're up for a challenge !
Fitting it comprised these steps
1. Have to remove the air box and brackets first. Not difficult but a tight fit under the bulk head and watch for the clip that's up the inside of the top-box...arms length almost ! Unbolt the vertical arm that they used to hold the airbox lower housing in place (simple stainless bracket bolted onto a bracket off the starter motor). There are some pipes and a connector too...remember these
2. Starter is pushed well up into the bulkhead on driver side...visible with upper and lower air boxes out of the way
3. Quite a few connectors etc to remove from harms way but they all seem to be keyed and labelled so no big deals here. Thinks like distributor etc. Loop them well away and remember each one. Make sure any that could get pinched or damaged during removal are clear of the working area
4. I advise disconnecting the battery BTW. I didn't so went to great extremes to make sure the main battery feed on the starter never got shorted to GND ! Really BE CAREFUL in the next steps if you're as daft as me (and you're on your own by the way...you have been warned)
5. Disconnected the alternator and main battery feeds on the solenoid and safely elastic band them inside thick plastic bags to stop them touching anything (and watch out too when undoing bolts of course...the spanner gets very close to engine block and other "stuff"). The alternator one also needs the inline fuse unbolting too to release from the starter bracket
6. Remove the solenoid energise feed (thin wire) and cover that too (just in case!) and loop out the way
7. Remove the clutch remote bleed thingy (at least, think that's what it is...steel armoured pipe and gland bolted to bracket on back of starter). The lock bolts are *really* tight...mind your knuckles !
8. Now, you can unbolt the starter. It needs some fairly sturdy HEX head 1/2 or 3/8 ths drive (8mm hex) to get the 2 bolts undone and some extension bars that are just the right length to get enough leverage. I also treated the heads overnight with a quick squirt of WD40 to help them on their way
9. Remove the starter (care not to drop it ! and dont smash it into the distributor casing)
10. Remove the bracket from the back of the starter once you've got it on the bench
11. Now for the mods.
12. I slotted the holes in the bracket slightly to allow it to line up with the 2 main starter bolts on the new unit. On the old unit there are M4(?) studs, but on the new one you're going to have to make do with the bolts that run through the starter body (sorry!).
13. Undo the 2 starter bolts (on the new unit of course) and withdraw (they're about 25cm long). Check the bracket fits OK onto these mounting centres. I used some M5 bolts to act as spacers to just move the bracket off the lumpy back plate of the starter, this seemed to work OK.
14. I also re-did the mounting holes for the inline fuse holder, placing them just off to the side of the old ones on a bit of an angle and threading them to M5 and them making some nice M5 cap head bolts cut to just the right length so I can re-attach the holder body without the the bolts fouling the starter (I'm sure you could do this another way to be honest).
15. I also used some steel tube (2 pieces) at about 23mm long, I.D. around 6mm, to act as spacers so that I could re-fit the air box arm "spaced back" to its oringal position (the new starter is about 21mm longer + a bit for the bracket position difference). When you get to this stage you need 2 off longer M5(?) bolts, around 35mm ish to reach through these spacers.
16. With the new fuse holder mountings done, fit the bracket to the back of the starter and tighten up (not too much ! the starter body near the pinion is alloy...so I used some threadlock and moderate tightness)
17. Fit the new starter. It goes in pretty easily. Suggest you keep the little P-clip thing that holds the braided bleed pipe...TVR must have done this for a reason...it fits behind the top starter bolt
18. Tighten the 2 bolts progressively, final torque should be 30 ft lbs
19. Fit the electrical connections...starter energise, then the battery feed + alternator. Again, watch for accidental short circuit to GND (my advice...disconnect the battery !)
20. Fit the inline fuse holder to the starter bracket
21. Refit the clutch bleed thingy...its a rather tight fit...shame. So I ended up packing it out with a spacer to move it back 10-15mm overall. You'll see what I mean
22. Fit the airbox arm on its spacers to the starter bracket (suggest you use some lock washers or something).
23. Refit any connectors you took off from around the distributor etc
24. Refit the lower air box, possibly using a little good-old bendology to get the brackets in the right place. Be sure to mount the outer-end of the lower air box fairly high up on its adjuster to make sure the top air box seats nicely
25. Refit the upper airbox and reconnect any connectors/pipes to it, and check that when the clips are latched that the upper and lower covers seat nicely together (dont forget the air filter)
26. Reconnect the battery ;-)
27. Let it rip ! Mine went first turn of the key with no throttle input at all
28. Suggest you do one last sanity check that you've reconnected and tightened everything before putting back the bonnet
So far, i've found the starting performance to be massively improved, even when piping hot. I'm sure a brand new old-style starter would have improved matters but its my belief that as the brushes wear out, the solenoid contacts degrade and heat soak causes the starter efficiency to drop, that the the old unit was never really up to the job. At least the new one has 25% extra umph! So here's hoping...
If you follow these steps, I should stress that you're on your own...no warranty from me that you'll get success or that you won't hit snags...blah blah blah
But have fun and happy starting.
Edited by PetrolHeadPete on Sunday 6th July 21:17
Edited by PetrolHeadPete on Sunday 6th July 21:18
Edited by PetrolHeadPete on Sunday 6th July 21:20
Thanks for e-mail Pete.
If I ever replace my cerb starter again I will bear this in mind. Assuming Tuscan Starter and Cerb S6 starter are the same.
Your description holds no relation to my car though. Mine is dead easy. Airbox off, starter out.
When I stripped my old starter, brushes were not a problem. I believe solenoid contacts are weak point, which occasional undoing of the solenoid and agitating the contacts helps.
Also fitted a thin Nebar gasket to reduce heatsoak.
Long term cure has to be reducing the heat to start with. Ceramic exhaust manifold and new cat may be way to go (or decat if you prefer).
Getting all cylinders balanced and running with near equal adaptives also key, as I think on mine 4,5&6 are not as they should be, but will be changing pot soon. Nature of the engine is that engine hotter at rear anyway, so anything that can be done to balance things up has got to help, and after all it seems very few of us suffer with this issue at the moment.
Be interested to hear if your new starter continues to perform better or like the old one deteriates with time.
Anyway, back to Cerbland
If I ever replace my cerb starter again I will bear this in mind. Assuming Tuscan Starter and Cerb S6 starter are the same.
Your description holds no relation to my car though. Mine is dead easy. Airbox off, starter out.
When I stripped my old starter, brushes were not a problem. I believe solenoid contacts are weak point, which occasional undoing of the solenoid and agitating the contacts helps.
Also fitted a thin Nebar gasket to reduce heatsoak.
Long term cure has to be reducing the heat to start with. Ceramic exhaust manifold and new cat may be way to go (or decat if you prefer).
Getting all cylinders balanced and running with near equal adaptives also key, as I think on mine 4,5&6 are not as they should be, but will be changing pot soon. Nature of the engine is that engine hotter at rear anyway, so anything that can be done to balance things up has got to help, and after all it seems very few of us suffer with this issue at the moment.
Be interested to hear if your new starter continues to perform better or like the old one deteriates with time.
Anyway, back to Cerbland
Shameless bump of this thread.
I have now fitted the 1.7kw starter to the Cerb, as I did not want hot start problems during TITT3.
Wow! What a difference. It is now a real pleasure to hit the balck start button, whatever the temperature. When cold the engine turns over at a much higher speed. Debatably it could get the oil up to presuure before combustion takes place.
When hot, well it just starts without any hint of drama.
Thanks for the advise.
I have now fitted the 1.7kw starter to the Cerb, as I did not want hot start problems during TITT3.
Wow! What a difference. It is now a real pleasure to hit the balck start button, whatever the temperature. When cold the engine turns over at a much higher speed. Debatably it could get the oil up to presuure before combustion takes place.
When hot, well it just starts without any hint of drama.
Thanks for the advise.
Another shameless bump of this thread.
Did this starter mod last month along with replacing all the 'power electrics'.
A real must for any one experiencing hot start problems.
So now all is sorted;
- Battery swapped round so +ve isn't next to the chassis
- Replaced and waterproofed the charging/jump start connector (another real must, mine was almost in 2 pieces, a short/fire waiting to happen)
- and a new shiny, powerful starter motor.
Only issue I had was trying to re-bleed the clutch, ended up having to use a pressurised 'Easy-bleed' and pumping the pedal, got there in the end though.
Steve
Did this starter mod last month along with replacing all the 'power electrics'.
A real must for any one experiencing hot start problems.
So now all is sorted;
- Battery swapped round so +ve isn't next to the chassis
- Replaced and waterproofed the charging/jump start connector (another real must, mine was almost in 2 pieces, a short/fire waiting to happen)
- and a new shiny, powerful starter motor.
Only issue I had was trying to re-bleed the clutch, ended up having to use a pressurised 'Easy-bleed' and pumping the pedal, got there in the end though.
Steve
Just to revive this thread again in order to say many, many thanks to PetrolHeadPete for his fantastic details above to assist in fitting the uprated starter motor. Brilliant. It gave me the confidence to do the job and I am glad that I did. I would just add 2 things i case they help others.
1. When I got the old starter motor out and took it apart (out of interest) I found that it was heavily corroded by water inside. This mystified me at first but later I realised that this must be due to water coming off the scuttle and then going directly down on the starter - and also the ECU coolant sensor. I experienced the "EFI fault" a few months ago and knew that I had this problem to sort out as well. I have fitted a cover over the hole where the water goes down but also a rubber (drooping) "gutter" extending from the end of the fibreglass scuttle gutter towards the right side of the car. TVR have cleverly made the gutter on the end of the fibreglass scuttle far too short and this seems to be the cause of the problem.
2. When you replace the starter it would be wise to check the main inline fuse. When I unbolted the fuse holder from the bracket on the end of the starter the lower main feed wire dropped out !!! Fortunately I had disconnected the battery before starting the work !! the screw which was meant to hold this in was really quite loose. I dread to think what would have happened if this had occurred when I had been driving the car ! Check your main inline fuse when you have this opportunity.
1. When I got the old starter motor out and took it apart (out of interest) I found that it was heavily corroded by water inside. This mystified me at first but later I realised that this must be due to water coming off the scuttle and then going directly down on the starter - and also the ECU coolant sensor. I experienced the "EFI fault" a few months ago and knew that I had this problem to sort out as well. I have fitted a cover over the hole where the water goes down but also a rubber (drooping) "gutter" extending from the end of the fibreglass scuttle gutter towards the right side of the car. TVR have cleverly made the gutter on the end of the fibreglass scuttle far too short and this seems to be the cause of the problem.
2. When you replace the starter it would be wise to check the main inline fuse. When I unbolted the fuse holder from the bracket on the end of the starter the lower main feed wire dropped out !!! Fortunately I had disconnected the battery before starting the work !! the screw which was meant to hold this in was really quite loose. I dread to think what would have happened if this had occurred when I had been driving the car ! Check your main inline fuse when you have this opportunity.
Edited by desperately sad on Friday 1st November 19:05
desperately sad said:
Just to revive this thread again in order to say many, many thanks to PetrolHeadPete for his fantastic details above to assist in fitting the uprated starter motor. Brilliant. It gave me the confidence to do the job and I am glad that I did. I would just add 2 things i case they help others.
1. When I got the old starter motor out and took it apart (out of interest) I found that it was heavily corroded by water inside. This mystified me at first but later I realised that this must be due to water coming off the scuttle and then going directly down on the starter - and also the ECU coolant sensor. I experienced the "EFI fault" a few months ago and knew that I had this problem to sort out as well. I have fitted a cover over the hole where the water goes down but also a rubber (drooping) "gutter" extending from the end of the fibreglass scuttle gutter towards the right side of the car. TVR have cleverly made the gutter on the end of the fibreglass scuttle far too short and this seems to be the cause of the problem.
2. When you replace the starter it would be wise to check the main inline fuse. When I unbolted the fuse holder from the bracket on the end of the starter the lower main feed wire dropped out !!! Fortunately I had disconnected the battery before starting the work !! the screw which was meant to hold this in was really quite loose. I dread to think what would have happened if this had occurred when I had been driving the car ! Check your main inline fuse when you have this opportunity.
Can I ask where you sourced the starter from? Did you buy a Bosch or aftermarket copy?1. When I got the old starter motor out and took it apart (out of interest) I found that it was heavily corroded by water inside. This mystified me at first but later I realised that this must be due to water coming off the scuttle and then going directly down on the starter - and also the ECU coolant sensor. I experienced the "EFI fault" a few months ago and knew that I had this problem to sort out as well. I have fitted a cover over the hole where the water goes down but also a rubber (drooping) "gutter" extending from the end of the fibreglass scuttle gutter towards the right side of the car. TVR have cleverly made the gutter on the end of the fibreglass scuttle far too short and this seems to be the cause of the problem.
2. When you replace the starter it would be wise to check the main inline fuse. When I unbolted the fuse holder from the bracket on the end of the starter the lower main feed wire dropped out !!! Fortunately I had disconnected the battery before starting the work !! the screw which was meant to hold this in was really quite loose. I dread to think what would have happened if this had occurred when I had been driving the car ! Check your main inline fuse when you have this opportunity.
Edited by desperately sad on Friday 1st November 19:05
Hi
In the end I bought the 1.7 kw starter from TVR Parts . I thought about buying one from EBay but in the end for about £25 more I thought that TVR Parts had more of a reputation to protect. Also they gave a 2 year guarantee rather than 1 year. the only downside was that they wouldnt tell me who made the starter when I asked. It was not a Bosch starter.
I suspect that there is only one maker of these replacement starters out there. Each individual retailer just puts their own label on it.
Nevertheless, very pleased with the outcome. When I saw how corroded the inside was on my original starter I am amazed that it kept going. I only decided to replace it as I could tell that it was not going to last much longer as it was turning the engine so slowly (despite renewing the battery first of all).
Best of luck if you do the job - it is not too difficult but just takes sometime and care.
In the end I bought the 1.7 kw starter from TVR Parts . I thought about buying one from EBay but in the end for about £25 more I thought that TVR Parts had more of a reputation to protect. Also they gave a 2 year guarantee rather than 1 year. the only downside was that they wouldnt tell me who made the starter when I asked. It was not a Bosch starter.
I suspect that there is only one maker of these replacement starters out there. Each individual retailer just puts their own label on it.
Nevertheless, very pleased with the outcome. When I saw how corroded the inside was on my original starter I am amazed that it kept going. I only decided to replace it as I could tell that it was not going to last much longer as it was turning the engine so slowly (despite renewing the battery first of all).
Best of luck if you do the job - it is not too difficult but just takes sometime and care.
Thanks. I've looked at a few but as yet am undecided. This is the most likely suspect! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272282014019
Tuscan Parts wiki, top of the Tuscan Forum page - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Says it is a BMW M5 unit.
Says it is a BMW M5 unit.
desperately sad said:
That looks like the same one that I bought but you never know until you look inside It. The "chinese copies" often look exactly the same. I think that I found the same unit on EBay at £69.99 somewhere.
This one I assume?https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E34-E39-518-520-523...
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