The cloudy future of the German Car industry gets worse..

[jamoor]

PhilipRM said:

Jamoor, I look at your statement "Fundamentally an electric car is a better product, you can charge it at home, it’s more reliable, it’s cleaner, it’s potentially can be upgraded" and I can pick all sorts of holes:

- "you can charge it at home" Yes if you have an individual house with drive etc. What about all the car owners who leave them outside or people who live in flats

- "it's more reliable" Show me some figures

- "its cleaner" Unless the electrical energy source is renewable you are simply displacing the pollution; Also please explain to me how it can be more energy efficient to displace a heavier vehicle since electric vehicles often way 30-50% more than equivalent ICE. What is the environmental cost of producing a new vehicle and it's electric batteries? What is the environmental cost of disposing of the batteries?

- "it potentially can be upgrade" Sorry I don't understand this one.

I do think there is a place for electric vehicles, particularly in towns and for people who can afford several cars, one of which will be used for short journeys when undeniably ICE has efficiency issues due to warm up time.

I am more than happy to be convinced and proven wrong but until I see some hard figures showing the whole picture I am extremely sceptical about many of the often repeated claims about EV.

Cheers

Philip

I can charge it at home, not sure about anyone else. For me its a better product and for a large amount of the population too. For the same reason a Ford Fiesta is an excellent product but not very useful for someone with 4 kids.

It's more reliabile by the fact that there's no to few moving parts? I'm sure stats aren't needed for this? Plus the cars and technology is too new for there to be any meaningful stats.

It's cleaner - well look at the cars running around with no dpfs and there's no control over it. It's much better for an entire citys transportation power to come from one electric plant that can be monitored 24/7 to ensure pollition is at an absolute minimum rather than having a DPF/Cat free car running around that has the emissions control replaced come MOT time?

It can be upgraded easily in theory, as battery technology improves you can swap the batteries in your car for a new set that may give your car more range in the future and it shouldnt be cost prohibitive to do so.
You can potentially swap out an engine on a car but the labour involved in doing so in this country is cost prohibitive, swapping out a battery pack in an electric car shoudl take no time at all as shown in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY

I think its very much a case of you don't know why its better until you've owned one.


I don't know where the electric car myths have come from but they've been ingrained very strongly in peoples minds that they have been brainwashed by it. Most people I mention when I have an electric car say the same old things - about the batteries wearing out, having to sit on the M1 for 4 hours waiting for it to charge up or it's not for petrol heads. It's all from a lack of either open mindedness or education, it could also be comparing it to a 2012 leaf that had a 50 mile range.

Edited by jamoor on Sunday 15th December 18:43

[RDMcG]

Would be a major issue if the electric bet takes a much longer to ramp up in the crucial US market:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-13...

[Gojira]

jamoor said:

I can charge it at home, not sure about anyone else. For me its a better product and for a large amount of the population too. For the same reason a Ford Fiesta is an excellent product but not very useful for someone with 4 kids.

It's more reliabile by the fact that there's no to few moving parts? I'm sure stats aren't needed for this? Plus the cars and technology is too new for there to be any meaningful stats.

It's cleaner - well look at the cars running around with no dpfs and there's no control over it. It's much better for an entire citys transportation power to come from one electric plant that can be monitored 24/7 to ensure pollition is at an absolute minimum rather than having a DPF/Cat free car running around that has the emissions control replaced come MOT time?

It can be upgraded easily in theory, as battery technology improves you can swap the batteries in your car for a new set that may give your car more range in the future and it shouldnt be cost prohibitive to do so.
You can potentially swap out an engine on a car but the labour involved in doing so in this country is cost prohibitive, swapping out a battery pack in an electric car shoudl take no time at all as shown in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY

I think its very much a case of you don't know why its better until you've owned one.


I don't know where the electric car myths have come from but they've been ingrained very strongly in peoples minds that they have been brainwashed by it. Most people I mention when I have an electric car say the same old things - about the batteries wearing out, having to sit on the M1 for 4 hours waiting for it to charge up or it's not for petrol heads. It's all from a lack of either open mindedness or education, it could also be comparing it to a 2012 leaf that had a 50 mile range.

Edited by jamoor on Sunday 15th December 18:43

How much does The Blessed St Elon pay you to write this crap?

I considered an EV before I bought my current Jag - there isn't one that meets my requirements at the moment, but you are doing a good job of putting me off one for my next motor....

[jamoor]

Gojira said:

jamoor said:

I can charge it at home, not sure about anyone else. For me its a better product and for a large amount of the population too. For the same reason a Ford Fiesta is an excellent product but not very useful for someone with 4 kids.

It's more reliabile by the fact that there's no to few moving parts? I'm sure stats aren't needed for this? Plus the cars and technology is too new for there to be any meaningful stats.

It's cleaner - well look at the cars running around with no dpfs and there's no control over it. It's much better for an entire citys transportation power to come from one electric plant that can be monitored 24/7 to ensure pollition is at an absolute minimum rather than having a DPF/Cat free car running around that has the emissions control replaced come MOT time?

It can be upgraded easily in theory, as battery technology improves you can swap the batteries in your car for a new set that may give your car more range in the future and it shouldnt be cost prohibitive to do so.
You can potentially swap out an engine on a car but the labour involved in doing so in this country is cost prohibitive, swapping out a battery pack in an electric car shoudl take no time at all as shown in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY

I think its very much a case of you don't know why its better until you've owned one.


I don't know where the electric car myths have come from but they've been ingrained very strongly in peoples minds that they have been brainwashed by it. Most people I mention when I have an electric car say the same old things - about the batteries wearing out, having to sit on the M1 for 4 hours waiting for it to charge up or it's not for petrol heads. It's all from a lack of either open mindedness or education, it could also be comparing it to a 2012 leaf that had a 50 mile range.

Edited by jamoor on Sunday 15th December 18:43

How much does The Blessed St Elon pay you to write this crap?

I considered an EV before I bought my current Jag - there isn't one that meets my requirements at the moment, but you are doing a good job of putting me off one for my next motor....

Exactly my point!

[WonkeyDonkey]

Has that Tesla battery swap ever actually been implemented anywhere other than on stage?


Unless they standardised the battery packs I can't imagine it ever catching on. A lot more to store than just 4 different fuels.

[jamoor]

WonkeyDonkey said:

Has that Tesla battery swap ever actually been implemented anywhere other than on stage?


Unless they standardised the battery packs I can't imagine it ever catching on. A lot more to store than just 4 different fuels.

I don’t think it’s even necessary as charging speed is that quick now. My point was about upgrading the pack of neeeded.

[WonkeyDonkey]

I can imagine they are probably quicker at changing than an swapping a conventional engine and all its ancillaries but I cant imagine it will ever be a cheap swap.

Never know though, I'm definitely in the camp that would love an ev for day to day driving but they haven't come down to a price that I (and I presume a lot of the UK) can afford yet.

Did really want to get a Zoe but the battery lease idea made it no cheaper than my diesel.

[Gojira]

jamoor said:

Gojira said:

jamoor said:

I can charge it at home, not sure about anyone else. For me its a better product and for a large amount of the population too. For the same reason a Ford Fiesta is an excellent product but not very useful for someone with 4 kids.

It's more reliabile by the fact that there's no to few moving parts? I'm sure stats aren't needed for this? Plus the cars and technology is too new for there to be any meaningful stats.

It's cleaner - well look at the cars running around with no dpfs and there's no control over it. It's much better for an entire citys transportation power to come from one electric plant that can be monitored 24/7 to ensure pollition is at an absolute minimum rather than having a DPF/Cat free car running around that has the emissions control replaced come MOT time?

It can be upgraded easily in theory, as battery technology improves you can swap the batteries in your car for a new set that may give your car more range in the future and it shouldnt be cost prohibitive to do so.
You can potentially swap out an engine on a car but the labour involved in doing so in this country is cost prohibitive, swapping out a battery pack in an electric car shoudl take no time at all as shown in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY

I think its very much a case of you don't know why its better until you've owned one.


I don't know where the electric car myths have come from but they've been ingrained very strongly in peoples minds that they have been brainwashed by it. Most people I mention when I have an electric car say the same old things - about the batteries wearing out, having to sit on the M1 for 4 hours waiting for it to charge up or it's not for petrol heads. It's all from a lack of either open mindedness or education, it could also be comparing it to a 2012 leaf that had a 50 mile range.

Edited by jamoor on Sunday 15th December 18:43

How much does The Blessed St Elon pay you to write this crap?

I considered an EV before I bought my current Jag - there isn't one that meets my requirements at the moment, but you are doing a good job of putting me off one for my next motor....

Exactly my point!

What, you are trying to put me off buying an EV?

And you didn't answer my question...

[jamoor]

Gojira said:

jamoor said:

Gojira said:

jamoor said:

I can charge it at home, not sure about anyone else. For me its a better product and for a large amount of the population too. For the same reason a Ford Fiesta is an excellent product but not very useful for someone with 4 kids.

It's more reliabile by the fact that there's no to few moving parts? I'm sure stats aren't needed for this? Plus the cars and technology is too new for there to be any meaningful stats.

It's cleaner - well look at the cars running around with no dpfs and there's no control over it. It's much better for an entire citys transportation power to come from one electric plant that can be monitored 24/7 to ensure pollition is at an absolute minimum rather than having a DPF/Cat free car running around that has the emissions control replaced come MOT time?

It can be upgraded easily in theory, as battery technology improves you can swap the batteries in your car for a new set that may give your car more range in the future and it shouldnt be cost prohibitive to do so.
You can potentially swap out an engine on a car but the labour involved in doing so in this country is cost prohibitive, swapping out a battery pack in an electric car shoudl take no time at all as shown in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY

I think its very much a case of you don't know why its better until you've owned one.


I don't know where the electric car myths have come from but they've been ingrained very strongly in peoples minds that they have been brainwashed by it. Most people I mention when I have an electric car say the same old things - about the batteries wearing out, having to sit on the M1 for 4 hours waiting for it to charge up or it's not for petrol heads. It's all from a lack of either open mindedness or education, it could also be comparing it to a 2012 leaf that had a 50 mile range.

Edited by jamoor on Sunday 15th December 18:43

How much does The Blessed St Elon pay you to write this crap?

I considered an EV before I bought my current Jag - there isn't one that meets my requirements at the moment, but you are doing a good job of putting me off one for my next motor....

Exactly my point!

What, you are trying to put me off buying an EV?

And you didn't answer my question...

Someone who owns an electric car must be a crazy environmentalist of some sort of churchgoer!

[CABC]

jamoor said:

Someone who owns an electric car must be a crazy environmentalist of some sort of churchgoer!

you come across like Rob D's son though

seriously, this whole debate shouldn't be binary. you make some valid points, and i for one 98% agree that a BEV daily is the way to go. there are still issues though: initial costs, charging network, choice and even availability (latest Kia looks great). Those initial costs are difficult to justify for lower mileage users.

Then the big one for me as a PHer is that there are no sports cars available yet and not on the horizon either. That a BEV should be the main car is shouldn't a question for many who cover 12k miles/yr.

Back to OP. i think the Germans will catch up pretty quickly. they know about cabin quality and image. The "under the hood" gubbins aren't so difficult, as you correctly point out, they're actually simpler. Tesla is a kind of church though, be honest. i don't have a problem with that, boys like toys. Also, Germany produces cars of varying sizes and with exteriors that show some design (some questionable) rather than large slabs of panel. and those panels are large because the cars are too big. have you seen a Model X? it's bigger than a Transit, very wide. Cars like the i3 (and i4 i5?) are more suited to Europe.

[cardigankid]

jamoor said:

My points address why the German car industry will die very quickly.

Jamoor V VW/Audi, BMW and Daimler Benz. That should be a close one!

[cardigankid]

jamoor said:

Fundamentally an electric car is a better product, you can charge it at home, it’s more reliable, it’s cleaner, it’s potentially can be upgraded. It can be powered by energy from multiple sources.

I’m surprised when I see 60 year olds who have been driving for 40 years still desperately wanting to cling onto the ICE ownership experience and mindset. They want to go to a petrol station, they want to go and get the plugs and timing belt changed and negotiate pricing with dealers. They want to ring around multiple dealers to get pricing for servicing their cars.


I’m only 32 and I was getting quite tired of the ownership experience of ICE cars so I’ve no idea how old timers insist on keeping on going.

This is a beautiful example of the kind of argument you get from your new-era Eco-Warrior, and why you are never ever going to get any kind of agreement. It is actually a lot worse over on the EV and Alternative Fuels Section. You get people like Jamoor who are utterly convinced this is the way forward, can only see the benefits, cannot see the downsides, and cannot tolerate the least challenge to their position.

Go over there and try it, guys! Its like dealing with some kind of religious cult. Basically, it's the future because it's the future. End of. There is no debate, we are just old timers who don't get it.

I can see the benefit in certain situations of electric vehicles. I can see that technologies may arise, like Hydrogen Fuel Cell which may revolutionise personal transport. Let's get developing it then. But the first battery driven electric vehicle was built in 1832, that's not a typo by the way, and they haven't actually come terribly far since then. It's not NEW technology, its OLD technology, and ICE is simply better. Like Apple, it is image, it's packaging, it's presentation. It looks modern.

Something which weighs more, costs more to produce, has huge practical disadvantages and has catastrophic environmental implications which, like children making clothes in slavery conditions, are acceptable only because they are not happening in front of you, cannot possibly be the future.

The EV is a projected simple panacea solution to all of our problems put forward by wild eyed utopians who are, for the time being, useful to politicians, like the architects who proposed high rise flats in the 40's, 50's and 60's. Panaceas don't work, this is a complex problem and needs a great deal of work and thought to resolve.

Firstly, Henry Ford's achievement - cars are freedom, simple as that - are you going to try to take that freedom back from people? I think that you are going to struggle. The elite, the BBC, politicians, the great and the good, will always have cars, boats and planes at their disposal in every environment. It is the average man we are talking about, but it is the average man, in the end, who matters.

Secondly, pollution in cities. Oslo city centre has banned the car, Bravo for the Scandis, it's the Norwegian model, let's go! But it's not that simple. Trucks and taxis, buses and blue card holders are still allowed in the centre. They haven't provided for cycling, its a bit of a clusterfk to be honest. Glasgow is going to exclude ICE's from the city centre, but the biggest polluters in the city centre by a country mile are the buses, and have been for decades. It is also a simple fact that since the removal of industry from the city centre and elimination of coal burning, the air quality in Glasgow (which was lethal) is unrecognisably better. Glasgow of course sits in a bowl and the grimy atmosphere is incline to hang and settle, making it the eternally dirty place it has always been. That is another issue. Electric Taxis, a bit like Mokes or golf buggies, maybe autonomous, are absolutely a possibility, because they are light, economical, easy to charge and they never go out of the city centre. And that is the key to the EV, it works on short easy trips like that (until it is hit by a bus driven by someone with health problems who has a blackout.)

York is planning to do something similar. Yes, who actually wants cars in the heart of a medieval city, that is quite right. But in York, and for that matter Bruges, Salzburg and Heidelberg you can park out of sight, underground, in the middle of a handy mountain, or on the perimeter so that it remains easy to access. Not every city is a World Heritage Site, and not every city will draw people in whatever the obstacles. The logistics need to be thought about.

Thirdly, the drive to force people onto public transport. Your Utopian always resorts to Stalinism in the end, for the greater good. Public transport is a great idea, but it needs to be attractive, of high quality, and affordable. People have to want to use it. They will not be forced onto it, they will just go somewhere else.

Fourthly, the drive to force people to use bicycles. Cyclists these days are out to make a point, at considerable personal risk to themselves and others. Before cycling can become a realistic large scale option, it has to be safer, which it currently absolutely is not, for cars, cyclists or pedestrians. There have to be dedicated routes. There has to be a huge shift in the state of health and fitness of the general population. There has to be a move to high quality city centre living so that people are not trying to commute by bicycle, which you occasionally see being attempted. There needs to be provision for tidy secure bicycle storage, not up every close and stairwell and on every railing. Also, people do not go shopping by bicycle.

Fifthly, retail. Cities need to decide if they want shops in town centres. For sixty years they have hit retailers with massive business rates, and simultaneously tried to chase their customers away. It is hard to understand this schizophrenic attitude. Maybe city centres are going to be residential, with home offices, and most retail is going to be online, so people will only buy light portable items. But business rates will take a huge hit, and what you are really doing is moving retail to out of town centres. City Hall is then going to have to slim down and learn to live more cheaply.

I could go on, the point is this is a complex problem, it all has to be addressed, instead of which we get these do-gooders who come on and say, lets ban cars, or let's ban ICE.

[jamoor]

cardigankid said:

jamoor said:

Fundamentally an electric car is a better product, you can charge it at home, it’s more reliable, it’s cleaner, it’s potentially can be upgraded. It can be powered by energy from multiple sources.

I’m surprised when I see 60 year olds who have been driving for 40 years still desperately wanting to cling onto the ICE ownership experience and mindset. They want to go to a petrol station, they want to go and get the plugs and timing belt changed and negotiate pricing with dealers. They want to ring around multiple dealers to get pricing for servicing their cars.


I’m only 32 and I was getting quite tired of the ownership experience of ICE cars so I’ve no idea how old timers insist on keeping on going.

This is a beautiful example of the kind of argument you get from your new-era Eco-Warrior, and why you are never ever going to get any kind of agreement. It is actually a lot worse over on the EV and Alternative Fuels Section. You get people like Jamoor who are utterly convinced this is the way forward, can only see the benefits, cannot see the downsides, and cannot tolerate the least challenge to their position.

Go over there and try it, guys! Its like dealing with some kind of religious cult. Basically, it's the future because it's the future. End of. There is no debate, we are just old timers who don't get it.

I can see the benefit in certain situations of electric vehicles. I can see that technologies may arise, like Hydrogen Fuel Cell which may revolutionise personal transport. Let's get developing it then. But the first battery driven electric vehicle was built in 1832, that's not a typo by the way, and they haven't actually come terribly far since then. It's not NEW technology, its OLD technology, and ICE is simply better. Like Apple, it is image, it's packaging, it's presentation. It looks modern.

Something which weighs more, costs more to produce, has huge practical disadvantages and has catastrophic environmental implications which, like children making clothes in slavery conditions, are acceptable only because they are not happening in front of you, cannot possibly be the future.

The EV is a projected simple panacea solution to all of our problems put forward by wild eyed utopians who are, for the time being, useful to politicians, like the architects who proposed high rise flats in the 40's, 50's and 60's. Panaceas don't work, this is a complex problem and needs a great deal of work and thought to resolve.

Firstly, Henry Ford's achievement - cars are freedom, simple as that - are you going to try to take that freedom back from people? I think that you are going to struggle. The elite, the BBC, politicians, the great and the good, will always have cars, boats and planes at their disposal in every environment. It is the average man we are talking about, but it is the average man, in the end, who matters.

Secondly, pollution in cities. Oslo city centre has banned the car, Bravo for the Scandis, it's the Norwegian model, let's go! But it's not that simple. Trucks and taxis, buses and blue card holders are still allowed in the centre. They haven't provided for cycling, its a bit of a clusterfk to be honest. Glasgow is going to exclude ICE's from the city centre, but the biggest polluters in the city centre by a country mile are the buses, and have been for decades. It is also a simple fact that since the removal of industry from the city centre and elimination of coal burning, the air quality in Glasgow (which was lethal) is unrecognisably better. Glasgow of course sits in a bowl and the grimy atmosphere is incline to hang and settle, making it the eternally dirty place it has always been. That is another issue. Electric Taxis, a bit like Mokes or golf buggies, maybe autonomous, are absolutely a possibility, because they are light, economical, easy to charge and they never go out of the city centre. And that is the key to the EV, it works on short easy trips like that (until it is hit by a bus driven by someone with health problems who has a blackout.)

York is planning to do something similar. Yes, who actually wants cars in the heart of a medieval city, that is quite right. But in York, and for that matter Bruges, Salzburg and Heidelberg you can park out of sight, underground, in the middle of a handy mountain, or on the perimeter so that it remains easy to access. Not every city is a World Heritage Site, and not every city will draw people in whatever the obstacles. The logistics need to be thought about.

Thirdly, the drive to force people onto public transport. Your Utopian always resorts to Stalinism in the end, for the greater good. Public transport is a great idea, but it needs to be attractive, of high quality, and affordable. People have to want to use it. They will not be forced onto it, they will just go somewhere else.

Fourthly, the drive to force people to use bicycles. Cyclists these days are out to make a point, at considerable personal risk to themselves and others. Before cycling can become a realistic large scale option, it has to be safer, which it currently absolutely is not, for cars, cyclists or pedestrians. There have to be dedicated routes. There has to be a huge shift in the state of health and fitness of the general population. There has to be a move to high quality city centre living so that people are not trying to commute by bicycle, which you occasionally see being attempted. There needs to be provision for tidy secure bicycle storage, not up every close and stairwell and on every railing. Also, people do not go shopping by bicycle.

Fifthly, retail. Cities need to decide if they want shops in town centres. For sixty years they have hit retailers with massive business rates, and simultaneously tried to chase their customers away. It is hard to understand this schizophrenic attitude. Maybe city centres are going to be residential, with home offices, and most retail is going to be online, so people will only buy light portable items. But business rates will take a huge hit, and what you are really doing is moving retail to out of town centres. City Hall is then going to have to slim down and learn to live more cheaply.

I could go on, the point is this is a complex problem, it all has to be addressed, instead of which we get these do-gooders who come on and say, lets ban cars, or let's ban ICE.

I’m not an eco warrior, I’m a car enthusiast that loves tech I couldn’t give two stuffs about the environment.

[RDMcG]

BMW have said they will be building ICE cars for the next 30 years. I agree that an EV is great for pottering around town but for long fast trips and remote places they will not play for me at all.
I need ubiquitous charging stations and five minute charging.

That being said , car companies will have a hard time with no EV.

There is another issue: car demand is falling everywhere and almost everyone has reduced Sales but yet has to invest heavily in this technology.

[cardigankid]

jamoor said:

I’m not an eco warrior, I’m a car enthusiast that loves tech I couldn’t give two stuffs about the environment.

I’d be interested to hear what cars you are enthusiastic about.

I’m a car enthusiast and I do care about the environment. We face a suite of important challenges, including pollution, congestion, public health, education, waste and poverty. Eliminating ICE does not resolve any of those issues. You will note my list does not include Climate Change, which I consider a bogus political construct.

Personally I can’t see much to be enthusiastic about in EV or PHEV. Drove a couple, thought they felt like glorified milk floats, that was it, but I am open to discussion.

[Pothole]

cardigankid said:

Personally I can’t see much to be enthusiastic about in EV or PHEV. Drove a couple, thought they felt like glorified milk floats, that was it, but I am open to discussion.

How many milk floats have you driven?

[denis362832]

CrgT16 said:

I think it’s a change of mentality. New generations do not have the same interest in cars as older ones. I am not old but all my peers couldn’t wait to get a driving licence and cars were very much an interesting and enthusiastically discussed subject. So because of that I enjoy manual gearboxes, petrol engines with all their imperfections, sounds and smells.

If you don’t really care about that than an electric car looks great on paper, fast, “clean” and will take you A-B with the same efficiency that a modern smartphone makes a call. The speed and acceleration are certainly there and if you are not n enthusiast... well its pretty cool. Probably feels a different age car compared to the old ICEs.

For me the main benefit of an electric car are improving air quality in city centres. they may or not be more environmentally friendly over their lifespan but I really haven’t researched enough to know.

I can see the appeal but for the time being I will enjoy my ICE and will probably buy a white goods electric carriage at some point if battery tech develops a bit more.

You are absolutely right...

[Gojira]

Pothole said:

cardigankid said:

Personally I can’t see much to be enthusiastic about in EV or PHEV. Drove a couple, thought they felt like glorified milk floats, that was it, but I am open to discussion.

How many milk floats have you driven?

Well, I'd like to try the Past Yer Eyes Express....

[jamoor]

cardigankid said:

I’d be interested to hear what cars you are enthusiastic about.

I’m a car enthusiast and I do care about the environment. We face a suite of important challenges, including pollution, congestion, public health, education, waste and poverty. Eliminating ICE does not resolve any of those issues. You will note my list does not include Climate Change, which I consider a bogus political construct.

Personally I can’t see much to be enthusiastic about in EV or PHEV. Drove a couple, thought they felt like glorified milk floats, that was it, but I am open to discussion.

I’m interested in all cars like most enthusiasts.

I’d say Evs do help eliminate pollution especially cities. Petrol can only come from one source whereas electricity can come from multiple sources including non polluting renewable sources.

The argument of the pollution is moved from cities to elsewhere doesn’t work either as the VW scandal and the other whole remove the DPF thing shows.


If you have 25 fossil fuel burning power plants to power the UKs road cars, it’s far easier to monitor pollution levels from these stations 24/7 than monitoring 30 million cars 24/7

[cardigankid]

What about all the other issues, some of which I mentioned? Pollution in particular. Modern cars, especially petrol engined ones are not the problem. What are you going to do about the real problem?