How threatened is JLR?...sounds worrying
Discussion
Jader1973 said:
Thanks for taking the time to explain it.
That makes more sense.
No worries. They could really do with actually publicising these calls more and then releasing a quick 3-4 minute YouTube friendly summary video or similar so people don’t react to lazy journalism. Their marketing and PR teams really do need some work That makes more sense.
craigjm said:
So.... speculation then
Interesting what you say about Ratan Tata because while it’s true that he is a Jaguar fan it is also true that Tata never wanted Jaguar and the valuation of sale from Ford actually gave them the brand for free.
The investors call was quite clear that they have plotted a plan for both brands to 2039. Now it may be true that separating the platforms is a preparation for sale but that’s not going to happen until 2025 and not completely until 2027 so I wouldn’t expect any movement if any until after that:
They did explore partnerships previously under the old CEO but nothing came of it. Doesn’t mean they are for sale now and have been for sale for two years
It's not speculation at all. And if you consider the corporate structure, no one at JLR would be involved in any disposal plans, the discussions are with the owner, the JLR Board have no role other than to do exactly what their remit is which is to run the business. Interesting what you say about Ratan Tata because while it’s true that he is a Jaguar fan it is also true that Tata never wanted Jaguar and the valuation of sale from Ford actually gave them the brand for free.
The investors call was quite clear that they have plotted a plan for both brands to 2039. Now it may be true that separating the platforms is a preparation for sale but that’s not going to happen until 2025 and not completely until 2027 so I wouldn’t expect any movement if any until after that:
They did explore partnerships previously under the old CEO but nothing came of it. Doesn’t mean they are for sale now and have been for sale for two years
DonkeyApple said:
It's not speculation at all. And if you consider the corporate structure, no one at JLR would be involved in any disposal plans, the discussions are with the owner, the JLR Board have no role other than to do exactly what their remit is which is to run the business.
So you are personally involved are you and have knowledge of what is happening other than what you have read? ettore said:
DonkeyApple said:
ettore said:
This post is almost complete nonsense.
Apart from the fact that non of it is. Don’t bluster, your post is a prime example of fake news.
Trying to call something 'fake news' just because you don't want to read, like or hear something is a little base.
craigjm said:
DonkeyApple said:
It's not speculation at all. And if you consider the corporate structure, no one at JLR would be involved in any disposal plans, the discussions are with the owner, the JLR Board have no role other than to do exactly what their remit is which is to run the business.
So you are personally involved are you and have knowledge of what is happening other than what you have read? We all Know TATA went to market in 2018. We all know that PSA among others were at the table. We all know that the stumbling block was that the suitors wanted LR thrown in and that wasn't going to ever happen because the cash revenues from LR are integral to TATA Group being able to meet their debt obligations. And we can all look at the JLR accounts abs see that Jaguar isn't. We also all know the history of why TATA bought JLR etc. We also know that it's nothing to do with the Board of JLR but their owners. Something you can see from the JLR stake sale rebuttals of last year by TATA.
This situation has changed very little from the the time when Ford sold off all their premium brands.
When Ford bought Jaguar way back in 1989, they had failed to do any homework beforehand. Once they had bought the company and had a look at the books, not to mention the shocking state of the factory, it suddenly dawned on Ford's executives they were now stuck with a proverbial white elephant. At that point, there was nothing else for Ford to do but dump billions into Jaguar in the hopes of turning it into a viable business.
Fast forward to the Great Recession, and Ford was looking to raise desperately needed cash by selling all of its former Premier Automotive Group brands in a giant fire sale for pennies on the pound. The problem was Jaguar was still the weakest of all the PAG brands by some considerable margin. It quickly became evident nobody was interested in Jaguar on its own, so Ford knew they had to bundle it with Land Rover lest they be stuck with it. Then, as now, Jaguar was the poisoned pill any prospective buyer would have to take if they wanted to get their hands on the Golden Goose that is Land Rover.
The problem with Jaguar, as I see it is scaling up the business to the point where it could be made profitable. I think it's fair to say Jaguar has the most competitive model range in its history. However, building good cars is simply not enough to insure survival in a cutthroat business environment. If you can't sell, and therefore build, enough units to cover your fixed costs then you can't turn a profit.
This, I'm afraid, is a much tougher nut to crack.
When Ford bought Jaguar way back in 1989, they had failed to do any homework beforehand. Once they had bought the company and had a look at the books, not to mention the shocking state of the factory, it suddenly dawned on Ford's executives they were now stuck with a proverbial white elephant. At that point, there was nothing else for Ford to do but dump billions into Jaguar in the hopes of turning it into a viable business.
Fast forward to the Great Recession, and Ford was looking to raise desperately needed cash by selling all of its former Premier Automotive Group brands in a giant fire sale for pennies on the pound. The problem was Jaguar was still the weakest of all the PAG brands by some considerable margin. It quickly became evident nobody was interested in Jaguar on its own, so Ford knew they had to bundle it with Land Rover lest they be stuck with it. Then, as now, Jaguar was the poisoned pill any prospective buyer would have to take if they wanted to get their hands on the Golden Goose that is Land Rover.
The problem with Jaguar, as I see it is scaling up the business to the point where it could be made profitable. I think it's fair to say Jaguar has the most competitive model range in its history. However, building good cars is simply not enough to insure survival in a cutthroat business environment. If you can't sell, and therefore build, enough units to cover your fixed costs then you can't turn a profit.
This, I'm afraid, is a much tougher nut to crack.
alabbasi said:
i'm sure that it's very complicated but with the number of Range Rovers I see on the roads here in the US, my only assumption is that they're not losing money due to lack of sales. Maybe they're dragging too much baggage or loosing money hand over fist on warranty repairs.
Nail, Head, Hit.£millions every day.
Jazzy Jag said:
alabbasi said:
i'm sure that it's very complicated but with the number of Range Rovers I see on the roads here in the US, my only assumption is that they're not losing money due to lack of sales. Maybe they're dragging too much baggage or loosing money hand over fist on warranty repairs.
Nail, Head, Hit.£millions every day.
craigjm said:
Jazzy Jag said:
alabbasi said:
i'm sure that it's very complicated but with the number of Range Rovers I see on the roads here in the US, my only assumption is that they're not losing money due to lack of sales. Maybe they're dragging too much baggage or loosing money hand over fist on warranty repairs.
Nail, Head, Hit.£millions every day.
Suggest the JLR products are no better than what the Americans can offer or even the Germans. VAG products especially are not that reliable any more and getting problems fixed under JLR warrenty is easier than under a VAG warranty according to surveys
ConwyC said:
Suggest the JLR products are no better than what the Americans can offer or even the Germans. VAG products especially are not that reliable any more and getting problems fixed under JLR warrenty is easier than under a VAG warranty according to surveys
sadly perception is all.....ConwyC said:
Isn't the XF over due for a replacement?
Suggest the JLR products are no better than what the Americans can offer or even the Germans. VAG products especially are not that reliable any more and getting problems fixed under JLR warrenty is easier than under a VAG warranty according to surveys
They are not going to replace the XF directly. There will be no new car launches until 2025 with Jaguar as they prepare the launch of their first electric future car. The current cars will all be phased out apart from the I-Pace that will continue past 2025. All that we will see from Jaguar between now and 2025 is facelifts of any current cars. Suggest the JLR products are no better than what the Americans can offer or even the Germans. VAG products especially are not that reliable any more and getting problems fixed under JLR warrenty is easier than under a VAG warranty according to surveys
craigjm said:
They are not going to replace the XF directly. There will be no new car launches until 2025 with Jaguar as they prepare the launch of their first electric future car. The current cars will all be phased out apart from the I-Pace that will continue past 2025. All that we will see from Jaguar between now and 2025 is facelifts of any current cars.
2025?! If there's nothing new from Jaguar other than facelifts of the current model lineup (many of which are already old), then they're in trouble.Olivera said:
craigjm said:
They are not going to replace the XF directly. There will be no new car launches until 2025 with Jaguar as they prepare the launch of their first electric future car. The current cars will all be phased out apart from the I-Pace that will continue past 2025. All that we will see from Jaguar between now and 2025 is facelifts of any current cars.
2025?! If there's nothing new from Jaguar other than facelifts of the current model lineup (many of which are already old), then they're in trouble.alabbasi said:
Olivera said:
2025?! If there's nothing new from Jaguar other than facelifts of the current model lineup (many of which are already old), then they're in trouble.
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