How threatened is JLR?...sounds worrying
Discussion
JLR issued bonds to raise money yesterday
Initially looking for $500m it raised $700m
7.75% interest on the bonds though
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-08...
Initially looking for $500m it raised $700m
7.75% interest on the bonds though
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-08...
Hello, PH's resident Yank, here. Let me offer you the American perspective on JLR's woes.
For starters, if there is one thing Americans value in a car, above all else, it's reliability. If it doesn't work, we don't want it. This explains why our roads are blighted with boring, and increasingly ugly, Japanese tin boxes.
Then there's JLR's reputation which, to be frank, is utter sh!t. Jaguar, especially. Jag's reputation in America has never recovered from the Bad Old Days of British Leyland. The old joke was if you wanted to buy a Jaguar, you had to be rich enough to buy two of them: one to drive whilst the other one was at the garage being repaired! Back in the 1980's, there was a veritable cottage industry here in America built around dropping small block Chevrolet V8 engines into Jaguars because that was the only way to make them run reliably. Those memories still linger to this very day. In recent years, Land Rover's reputation has fared little better. Everyone, it seems, has seen Doug DeMuro's Range Rover warranty videos on YouTube. Word travels fast, which explains why old Land Rovers can be bought cheap. Nobody wants to attach themselves to a ticking financial time bomb that threatens to bankrupt them at any moment with a catastrophically expensive breakdown. Especially not when there are Lexus SUVs with a bulletproof reputation to be had.
However, let's say you're willing to risk all those pitfalls because you either want to be different and stand out from the crowd or maybe you're the sort of person who buys into the allure of "The Brand" and fancy a slice of Ye Olde Englande on your driveway. So, you pop over to your local Jaguar/Land Rover emporium, walk inside expecting to bask in Connolly leather, Wilton wool carpets and stately, traditional British styling. Well, I'm sorry to say if that's what you are looking for then you're going to be extremely disappointed.
Why? Because today's Jaguars don't look like Jaguars and today's Land Rovers don't really resemble Land Rovers, either. A modern Jaguar saloon looks like every other bland Asian saloon on the road. The first XF was a near carbon copy of the Lexus GS and the XE appears to be little more than a shrunken version of the same thing. You won't find an elegant looking XJ, either. In fact, you won't find ANY XJ at all because the model has been discontinued and it's replacement is nowhere in sight. A supposedly "Premium" brand without a flagship car? More like a one-legged man at an ar$e-kicking contest! Sure, there are a couple of Jaguar SUVs but every time I see an F-Pace from the rear three-quarter view, I often mistake it for a Hyundai Tucson.
Then there's Land Rover. After being denied Defenders for decades because they couldn't meet even the most rudimentary of US safety standards, we were primed for a modern version that promised not to kill us in a crash faster than walking pace. We waited with baited breath for a new Defender that promised to deliver the iconic style and ability of the original with the necessary concessions to modernity. However, when the new Defender was finally unveiled, the cries of heartbroken disappointment could be heard from aficionados and the general public alike. Defender? Pretender, more like! And it costs how much?!?! No, thank you!
And it doesn't stop with the Defender, either. The Discovery has morphed into a fat, anonymous-looking blob, just like every other fat, anonymous looking blob of an SUV on our roads. The Velar is a handsome beast but it looks nothing like any Range Rover before or since.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a "hater". I love classic Jaguars and Land Rovers and would love to own a modern version that offers all of the classic style combined with modern Japanese-levels of reliability. Sadly, it seems Jaguar and Land Rover have both abandoned their heritage and, instead, are trying to become something they have never been and, I daresay, never will be. Looking like bad Chinese copies of much better cars in not what makes people want to fork out money for Jaguars or Land Rovers.
Unfortunately, I don't think the current management are willing or capable of fixing what is wrong. It will be a sad day if these two proud, storied marques are allowed to fall by the wayside. But perhaps it is an even more sad state of affairs if they are allowed to exist as mere shadows of their former selves.
For starters, if there is one thing Americans value in a car, above all else, it's reliability. If it doesn't work, we don't want it. This explains why our roads are blighted with boring, and increasingly ugly, Japanese tin boxes.
Then there's JLR's reputation which, to be frank, is utter sh!t. Jaguar, especially. Jag's reputation in America has never recovered from the Bad Old Days of British Leyland. The old joke was if you wanted to buy a Jaguar, you had to be rich enough to buy two of them: one to drive whilst the other one was at the garage being repaired! Back in the 1980's, there was a veritable cottage industry here in America built around dropping small block Chevrolet V8 engines into Jaguars because that was the only way to make them run reliably. Those memories still linger to this very day. In recent years, Land Rover's reputation has fared little better. Everyone, it seems, has seen Doug DeMuro's Range Rover warranty videos on YouTube. Word travels fast, which explains why old Land Rovers can be bought cheap. Nobody wants to attach themselves to a ticking financial time bomb that threatens to bankrupt them at any moment with a catastrophically expensive breakdown. Especially not when there are Lexus SUVs with a bulletproof reputation to be had.
However, let's say you're willing to risk all those pitfalls because you either want to be different and stand out from the crowd or maybe you're the sort of person who buys into the allure of "The Brand" and fancy a slice of Ye Olde Englande on your driveway. So, you pop over to your local Jaguar/Land Rover emporium, walk inside expecting to bask in Connolly leather, Wilton wool carpets and stately, traditional British styling. Well, I'm sorry to say if that's what you are looking for then you're going to be extremely disappointed.
Why? Because today's Jaguars don't look like Jaguars and today's Land Rovers don't really resemble Land Rovers, either. A modern Jaguar saloon looks like every other bland Asian saloon on the road. The first XF was a near carbon copy of the Lexus GS and the XE appears to be little more than a shrunken version of the same thing. You won't find an elegant looking XJ, either. In fact, you won't find ANY XJ at all because the model has been discontinued and it's replacement is nowhere in sight. A supposedly "Premium" brand without a flagship car? More like a one-legged man at an ar$e-kicking contest! Sure, there are a couple of Jaguar SUVs but every time I see an F-Pace from the rear three-quarter view, I often mistake it for a Hyundai Tucson.
Then there's Land Rover. After being denied Defenders for decades because they couldn't meet even the most rudimentary of US safety standards, we were primed for a modern version that promised not to kill us in a crash faster than walking pace. We waited with baited breath for a new Defender that promised to deliver the iconic style and ability of the original with the necessary concessions to modernity. However, when the new Defender was finally unveiled, the cries of heartbroken disappointment could be heard from aficionados and the general public alike. Defender? Pretender, more like! And it costs how much?!?! No, thank you!
And it doesn't stop with the Defender, either. The Discovery has morphed into a fat, anonymous-looking blob, just like every other fat, anonymous looking blob of an SUV on our roads. The Velar is a handsome beast but it looks nothing like any Range Rover before or since.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a "hater". I love classic Jaguars and Land Rovers and would love to own a modern version that offers all of the classic style combined with modern Japanese-levels of reliability. Sadly, it seems Jaguar and Land Rover have both abandoned their heritage and, instead, are trying to become something they have never been and, I daresay, never will be. Looking like bad Chinese copies of much better cars in not what makes people want to fork out money for Jaguars or Land Rovers.
Unfortunately, I don't think the current management are willing or capable of fixing what is wrong. It will be a sad day if these two proud, storied marques are allowed to fall by the wayside. But perhaps it is an even more sad state of affairs if they are allowed to exist as mere shadows of their former selves.
They had to abandon their heritage, not.many people want an old fashioned car like the previous XJ which is why they had to go radical - not suggesting this plan has worked, but going back to roots isn't really a solution either.
The market is just dominated by the German brands. I mean you'd have to hate all 3, or 5 if you want to include Porsche and Volkswagen to go elsewhere and if you do you have options such as Lexus, Volvo and Alfa Romeo. I suppose the british thing is a draw as is the badge of Jaguar, but because their products never lead the class many go for that more economical and faster BMW.
The market is just dominated by the German brands. I mean you'd have to hate all 3, or 5 if you want to include Porsche and Volkswagen to go elsewhere and if you do you have options such as Lexus, Volvo and Alfa Romeo. I suppose the british thing is a draw as is the badge of Jaguar, but because their products never lead the class many go for that more economical and faster BMW.
So the latest rumour doing the rounds is that JLR are need to close a plant, and there are massive fines around closing Nitra, Slovakia. Jaguar Castle Bromwich is the rumour to close, the staff have even in limbo for 12 months, and Solihull are near completion of a brand new build hall (FA3), which I’m sure the ‘best bits’ of Jaguar could easily fit into.....
sapf0 said:
So the latest rumour doing the rounds is that JLR are need to close a plant, and there are massive fines around closing Nitra, Slovakia. Jaguar Castle Bromwich is the rumour to close, the staff have even in limbo for 12 months, and Solihull are near completion of a brand new build hall (FA3), which I’m sure the ‘best bits’ of Jaguar could easily fit into.....
And where exactly is this rumour doing the rounds? So the latest rumour doing the rounds is that JLR are need to close a plant, and there are massive fines around closing Nitra, Slovakia. Jaguar Castle Bromwich is the rumour to close, the staff have even in limbo for 12 months, and Solihull are near completion of a brand new build hall (FA3), which I’m sure the ‘best bits’ of Jaguar could easily fit into.....
I would think that Jaguar Castle Bromwich would be the one to close, the site is pretty cramped and there is no room for expansion and I would think that the land is worth a fair amount for housing.
I think part of the problem is the Jaguars are just not there with the likes of BWM, Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, they cost about the same price but they are just not as good and Land Rover is going the same way, they have less competition over the years but this is changing fast with all the SUV's coming in now by the big brands and other than the Range Rover the other cars are basically the same as one another, but the issue is that the prices are just going up and up, where has the reliability lf them gone also.
They need to go electric or hydrogen, and there is always talk about a battery factory but lets face facts every single thing related to battery manufacture will have to be imported and here is the problem, it will cost much more to manufacture batteries here in the UK than somewhere else, it is not viable to make them and export them because countries that make cars nearby like German and France have the capacity with their car manufacturing factory's to use the batteries they would make, BMW, VAG and Mercedes could easily agree to use the same battery technology allowing them to have battery factories making the same battery and the same in France with Peugeot, Renault and Citroen, they would be easy scalability and don't forget they would also supply the likes of Mini, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Aston Martin due to their dealings with Mercedes and also Vauxhall who are owned by Peugeot.
I think part of the problem is the Jaguars are just not there with the likes of BWM, Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, they cost about the same price but they are just not as good and Land Rover is going the same way, they have less competition over the years but this is changing fast with all the SUV's coming in now by the big brands and other than the Range Rover the other cars are basically the same as one another, but the issue is that the prices are just going up and up, where has the reliability lf them gone also.
They need to go electric or hydrogen, and there is always talk about a battery factory but lets face facts every single thing related to battery manufacture will have to be imported and here is the problem, it will cost much more to manufacture batteries here in the UK than somewhere else, it is not viable to make them and export them because countries that make cars nearby like German and France have the capacity with their car manufacturing factory's to use the batteries they would make, BMW, VAG and Mercedes could easily agree to use the same battery technology allowing them to have battery factories making the same battery and the same in France with Peugeot, Renault and Citroen, they would be easy scalability and don't forget they would also supply the likes of Mini, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Aston Martin due to their dealings with Mercedes and also Vauxhall who are owned by Peugeot.
This whole thing seems to get stranger and stranger.
Now being reported that they are culling the EV Range Rover and writing off a billion quids worth of development costs.
https://www.caradvice.com.au/930831/jaguar-land-ro...
Could be 1+1=5 but seems really strange.
Is it a case of killing of anything joint, so that both brands stand alone? That doesn't make sense to me, the only way Jag can survive is through platform sharing.
All very odd.
Now being reported that they are culling the EV Range Rover and writing off a billion quids worth of development costs.
https://www.caradvice.com.au/930831/jaguar-land-ro...
Could be 1+1=5 but seems really strange.
Is it a case of killing of anything joint, so that both brands stand alone? That doesn't make sense to me, the only way Jag can survive is through platform sharing.
All very odd.
craigjm said:
You might want to watch the video of the latest investor call that took place a couple of days ago rather than listen to interpretations in the media
I can’t be arsed tbh. What did it say? Let me guess, everything is coming up roses? How did they frame writing off a billion quid in development fees ads good thing?
Jader1973 said:
craigjm said:
You might want to watch the video of the latest investor call that took place a couple of days ago rather than listen to interpretations in the media
I can’t be arsed tbh. What did it say? Let me guess, everything is coming up roses? How did they frame writing off a billion quid in development fees ads good thing?
In terms of the billion pounds you talk about there is also a difference between a write down and a write off. 2020 has been a bad year for the company, no surprises there then so it makes sense if you’re going to move away from an asset to have a really bad year financially if the year has already been a bad one and take advantage of it to financially dispose of an asset that you’re not going to use in the future.
The investor calls are very honest and lacking in spin, glitz and glamour because they can’t really be shown to be misleading investors. The big take away from the event was that Jaguar will NOT be an all electric brand by 2025 but that will be the first of the new breed launched that year with the rest following over the next couple of years and that by 2030 they expect the company as a whole to be producing about 25% less cars than they do now with Jaguar making up only around 10% of that number. The call was very focused on a move away from volume to a much smaller focus and higher profitability
Jader1973 said:
This whole thing seems to get stranger and stranger.
Now being reported that they are culling the EV Range Rover and writing off a billion quids worth of development costs.
https://www.caradvice.com.au/930831/jaguar-land-ro...
Could be 1+1=5 but seems really strange.
Is it a case of killing of anything joint, so that both brands stand alone? That doesn't make sense to me, the only way Jag can survive is through platform sharing.
All very odd.
The articles does seem a little strange as the moment Jaguar announced they weren't going to make the new electric XJ it obviously meant that the Land Rover estate that was going to use the same architecture was also dead. Seems odd to be talking about that aspect now as if it's some big surprise. Now being reported that they are culling the EV Range Rover and writing off a billion quids worth of development costs.
https://www.caradvice.com.au/930831/jaguar-land-ro...
Could be 1+1=5 but seems really strange.
Is it a case of killing of anything joint, so that both brands stand alone? That doesn't make sense to me, the only way Jag can survive is through platform sharing.
All very odd.
Also, Jaguar has been up for sale for nearly two years now and TATA have been clear that they are keeping Land Rover. Meanwhile all suitors have been clear that they don't want Jaguar but will take it for free as part of a purchase of Land Rover. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that Jaguar continues to generally not platform share with LR. TATA may not want a competitor using Land Rover architecture to compete in the premium SUV market against them once Jaguar is under new ownership.
DonkeyApple said:
Also, Jaguar has been up for sale for nearly two years now and TATA have been clear that they are keeping Land Rover. Meanwhile all suitors have been clear that they don't want Jaguar but will take it for free as part of a purchase of Land Rover. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that Jaguar continues to generally not platform share with LR. TATA may not want a competitor using Land Rover architecture to compete in the premium SUV market against them once Jaguar is under new ownership.
Have you got a source for any of that? craigjm said:
Have you got a source for any of that?
Just Google 'PSA Jaguar'. Jaguar has been on the table in London for a good couple of years but no one wants it without LR. You can note that in all press releases that TATA say they won't sell or sell a stake in JLR but nothing about Jaguar on it's own. They've been pretty public about being open to offers on Jaguar.
At the same time, Jaguar is the love of Ratan Tata who is steadily being replaced on the board by you her family members who have no love for the Jaguar brand. TATA ended up with JLR because Ratin wanted to own Jaguar and Ford would only let him if he took LR at the same time. Obviously it subsequently transpired that the economic rise of China and the post credit crunch global affluence that SUVs were the thing to be selling and LR became the jewel in the crown by accident.
By making Jaguar electric the brand suddenly becomes valuable to one of the global sub brands who are going to struggle to sell EVs at their premium market position without a premium brand. Jaguar would be a good solution but JLR obviously have to prove the case first. But if it's a huge success then it'll be taken off the table anyway.
So.... speculation then
Interesting what you say about Ratan Tata because while it’s true that he is a Jaguar fan it is also true that Tata never wanted Jaguar and the valuation of sale from Ford actually gave them the brand for free.
The investors call was quite clear that they have plotted a plan for both brands to 2039. Now it may be true that separating the platforms is a preparation for sale but that’s not going to happen until 2025 and not completely until 2027 so I wouldn’t expect any movement if any until after that:
They did explore partnerships previously under the old CEO but nothing came of it. Doesn’t mean they are for sale now and have been for sale for two years
Interesting what you say about Ratan Tata because while it’s true that he is a Jaguar fan it is also true that Tata never wanted Jaguar and the valuation of sale from Ford actually gave them the brand for free.
The investors call was quite clear that they have plotted a plan for both brands to 2039. Now it may be true that separating the platforms is a preparation for sale but that’s not going to happen until 2025 and not completely until 2027 so I wouldn’t expect any movement if any until after that:
They did explore partnerships previously under the old CEO but nothing came of it. Doesn’t mean they are for sale now and have been for sale for two years
DonkeyApple said:
Just Google 'PSA Jaguar'. Jaguar has been on the table in London for a good couple of years but no one wants it without LR.
You can note that in all press releases that TATA say they won't sell or sell a stake in JLR but nothing about Jaguar on it's own. They've been pretty public about being open to offers on Jaguar.
At the same time, Jaguar is the love of Ratan Tata who is steadily being replaced on the board by you her family members who have no love for the Jaguar brand. TATA ended up with JLR because Ratin wanted to own Jaguar and Ford would only let him if he took LR at the same time. Obviously it subsequently transpired that the economic rise of China and the post credit crunch global affluence that SUVs were the thing to be selling and LR became the jewel in the crown by accident.
By making Jaguar electric the brand suddenly becomes valuable to one of the global sub brands who are going to struggle to sell EVs at their premium market position without a premium brand. Jaguar would be a good solution but JLR obviously have to prove the case first. But if it's a huge success then it'll be taken off the table anyway.
This post is almost complete nonsense.You can note that in all press releases that TATA say they won't sell or sell a stake in JLR but nothing about Jaguar on it's own. They've been pretty public about being open to offers on Jaguar.
At the same time, Jaguar is the love of Ratan Tata who is steadily being replaced on the board by you her family members who have no love for the Jaguar brand. TATA ended up with JLR because Ratin wanted to own Jaguar and Ford would only let him if he took LR at the same time. Obviously it subsequently transpired that the economic rise of China and the post credit crunch global affluence that SUVs were the thing to be selling and LR became the jewel in the crown by accident.
By making Jaguar electric the brand suddenly becomes valuable to one of the global sub brands who are going to struggle to sell EVs at their premium market position without a premium brand. Jaguar would be a good solution but JLR obviously have to prove the case first. But if it's a huge success then it'll be taken off the table anyway.
craigjm said:
Right well for a start they talked about the next generation Range Rover and that has not been culled. The article you posted does not suggest the Range Rover has been pulled either it talks about a project called the Road Rover. The MLA platform that the new XJ was to sit on has been culled. The company has never admitted there was a J-Pace or a Road Rover in development. It was pretty much admitted that the MLA platform was not up to scratch and this is why they were moving away from it.
In terms of the billion pounds you talk about there is also a difference between a write down and a write off. 2020 has been a bad year for the company, no surprises there then so it makes sense if you’re going to move away from an asset to have a really bad year financially if the year has already been a bad one and take advantage of it to financially dispose of an asset that you’re not going to use in the future.
The investor calls are very honest and lacking in spin, glitz and glamour because they can’t really be shown to be misleading investors. The big take away from the event was that Jaguar will NOT be an all electric brand by 2025 but that will be the first of the new breed launched that year with the rest following over the next couple of years and that by 2030 they expect the company as a whole to be producing about 25% less cars than they do now with Jaguar making up only around 10% of that number. The call was very focused on a move away from volume to a much smaller focus and higher profitability
Thanks for taking the time to explain it.In terms of the billion pounds you talk about there is also a difference between a write down and a write off. 2020 has been a bad year for the company, no surprises there then so it makes sense if you’re going to move away from an asset to have a really bad year financially if the year has already been a bad one and take advantage of it to financially dispose of an asset that you’re not going to use in the future.
The investor calls are very honest and lacking in spin, glitz and glamour because they can’t really be shown to be misleading investors. The big take away from the event was that Jaguar will NOT be an all electric brand by 2025 but that will be the first of the new breed launched that year with the rest following over the next couple of years and that by 2030 they expect the company as a whole to be producing about 25% less cars than they do now with Jaguar making up only around 10% of that number. The call was very focused on a move away from volume to a much smaller focus and higher profitability
That makes more sense.
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